231 replies to this topic

[LordEcthelion]

I recall Uruks being described as twice the size of a man, and lot stronger. Take the size of Uruks in the TT video game. Massive, aren't they?

Since when were we trying to emulate that? It doesn't get less authentic than the EA adventure-style videogames (no matter how fun they are). Anyway, why would they be twice as big? That's more like a troll. They are described as being orclike men in the books, so why should they be any bigger?

[elbenmensch]

because they arent bigger in the movies

Edited by elbenmensch, 30 November 2007 - 01:58 PM.

[mike_]

Actually, in the books they're described as, "squint-eyed, with long arms and thick legs, nearly the height of a man" IIRC.
EDIT: Here's some quotes I typed up awhile back, for a different project:
"Here lie many are not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains...others strange to me. Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all!"
-Aragorn, Page 405, The Departure of Boromir, Book III, The Two Towers.
"There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs; and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men. Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in the centre of a black field; on the front of their iron helms was set an S-rune, wrought of some white metal."
-Pages 405-6, The Departure of Boromir, Book III, The Two Towers.
"Pursuers from Moria may have escaped the vigilance of Lorien, or they may have avoided that land and come to Isengard by other paths. Orcs travel fast. But Saruman has many ways of learning news. Do you remember the birds?"
-Aragorn, Page 406, The Departure of Boromir, Book III, The Two Towers.
"Apparently the members of two or thre quite different tribes were present, and they could not understand one another's orc-speech. There was an angry debate concerning what they were to now: which way they were to take and what should be done with the prisoners."
-Page 435, The Uruk-Hai, Book III, The Two Towers.
"We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man's flesh to eat. We came out of Isengard, and led you here, and we shall lead you back by the way we choose. I am Ugluck. I have spoken."
-Ugluk, Page 436, The Uruk-Hai, Book III, The Two Towers.
"The Orcs were getting ready to march again, but some of the Northerners were still unwilling, and the Isengarders slew two more before the rest were cowed."
-Page 437, The Uruk-Hai, Book III, The Two Towers.
"'But we can't run in the sunlight.'
'You'll run with me behind you,' said Ugluk. 'Run! Or you'll never see your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What's the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained. Run, curse you! Run while night lasts!'"
-Ugluk, Page 439, The Uruk-Hai, Book III, The Two Towers.
"'There's only one thing those maggots can do: they can see like gimlets in the dark."
-Ugluk, Page 444, The Uruk-Hai, Book III, The Two Towers.
"Merry and Pippin heard, clear in the cold air, the neighing of war-horses, and the sudden singing of many men. The Sun's limb was lifted, an arc of fire above the margin of the world. Then with a great cry the Riders yelled and shot all the arrows that remained to them. The hobbits saw several horsemen fall; but their line held on up the hill and over it, and wheeled round and charged again. Most of the raiders that were left alive then broke and fled, this way and that, purued one by one to the death. But one band, holding together in a black wedge, drove forward resolutely in the direction of the forest. Straight up the slope they charged towards the watchers. Now they were drawing near, and it seemed certain that they would escape: they had already hewn down three Riders that barred their way."
-Page 449, The Uruk-Hai, Book III, The Two Towers.
"Then the Orcs screamed, waving spear and sword, and shooting a cloud of arrows at any that stood revealed upon the battlements; and the men of the Mark amazed looked out, as it seemed to them, upon a great field of dark corn, tossed by a tempest of war, and every ear glinted with barbed light."
-Pages 520-1, Helm's Deep, Book III, The Two Towers.
"Again trumpets rang, and a press of roaring men leaped forth. They held their great shields above them like a roof, while in their midst they bore two trunks of mighty trees. Behind them orc-archers crowded, sending a hail of darts against the bowmen on the walls."
-Page 521, Helm's Deep, Book III, The Two Towers.
"...'but I looked on the hillmen and they seemed over large for me, so I sat beside a stone to see your sword-play.'"
-Gimli, Page 522, Helm's Deep, Book III, The Two Towers.
"...there came a blare of trumpets. Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke."
-Page 525, Helm's Deep, Book III, The Two Towers.
"The Orcs yelled and jeered. 'Come down! Come down!' they cried. 'If you wish to speak to us, come down! Bring out your king! We are the fighting Uruk-hai. We will fetch him from his hole, if he does not come. Bring out your skulking king!'"
-The Uruk-hai, Page 527, Helm's Deep, Book III, The Two Towers.
"...that Saruman had given special orders that Theodred should at all costs be slain. At the first battle all his fiercest warriors were engaged in reckless assults upon Theodred and his guard, disregarding other events of the battle which might have resulted on a much more damaging defeat for the Rohirrim."
-Page 355, Unfinished Tales, The Battles Of The Fords Of Isen
"... was it possible for large forces, especially those heavily armed or mounted..."
-Page 356, Unfinished Tales, The Battles Of The Fords Of Isen
"The enemy was in fact in positions prepared for the event, behind trenches manned by pikemen..."
Page 357, Unfinished Tales, The Battles Of The Fords Of Isen
"In it's van were some Dunlending Horsemen and a great pack of the dreadful Orcish Wolfriders, feared by horses. Behind them came two battalions of the fierce Uruks, heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles. The Horse-men and wolfriders fell on the horse herds and picketed horses and slew or dispersed them."
-Page 357, Unfinished Tales, The Battles Of The Fords Of Isen
"...there appeared a company of men or orc-men (evidently dispatched for this purpose), ferocious, mail-clad, and armed with axes."
-Page 357, Unfinished Tales, The Battles Of The Fords Of Isen
"As he looked eastward dismayed by the sounds of battle and the hideous orc cries of victory. he saw the axe-men..."
-Page 357-8, Unfinished Tales, The Battles Of The Fords Of Isen
---
If Naz would like, I'd be happy to write these kind of things up for all factions - I've got one for Rohan as well.
Cheers,
-mike

Edited by elfhelm.., 01 December 2007 - 04:42 AM.

[Thorongil45]

could you change the fellbeasts to dragons? dragons would just feel so much more isengard. fellbeasts were only used by the nazgul (books & movies).

[mike_]

...and could you point out where Dragons were described being used? That'd add alot more structure and sensibility to your request.
Cheers,
-mike

[Thorongil45]

...and could you point out where Dragons were described being used? That'd add alot more structure and sensibility to your request.
Cheers,
-mike

point taken. can't think of any right off hand. okay, it'd make isenagrd more unique? (yes i do realize it'd take a lot more work) just thinking out loud. thanks for pointing that out.

Edited by Thorongil45, 02 December 2007 - 07:44 AM.

[Mercyy]

Dragons and Isengard?oO
I think Dragons doesn't fit to Isengard.

Dargons fit to the Wildfaction.
They are all the untamd creatures in Middleearth.
Isengard had never contact with Dragons, but they had contact with Nazguls.
Dragons at Mordor would fit better, but Dragons at Wild fit best.
Also there are no dragons in the war of the Ring, but Smaug.

[Sûlherokhh]

True. And then there is the matter of the Isengard SpellBook (and the Moria and Mordor SpellBook as well) regarding Smaug, the Balrog, the summoned dragon etc. I guess Naz and I will discuss this sometime after Xmas.

...

Actually, in the books they're described as, "squint-eyed, with long arms and thick legs, nearly the height of a man" IIRC.
EDIT: Here's some quotes I typed up awhile back, for a different project:
"Here lie many are not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains...others strange to me. Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all!"
...
If Naz would like, I'd be happy to write these kind of things up for all factions - I've got one for Rohan as well.
Cheers,
-mike

I would like that very much, thanks for the offer!

Edited by Sûlherokhh, 02 December 2007 - 08:40 AM.

[mike_]

Cool. I've uploaded what I've already found to the Rohan Suggestions Thread, if you haven't seen it already.
I'm fairly busy right now (doing work for myself! :O) so it'll probably be a while before I get anything up.
Cheers,
-mike

[Nazgûl]

I still fear all that Lore will get burried in these threads... Let's do it this way. Elfhelm: could you make a new thread in "The SEE Mod & Forums" section, so we can move all those posts in there for easy access, and later when you post in these suggestion threads here, you can quote that thread directly and ppl can go there and find them easily

[mike_]

Sure, sorry that it took me so long to get back to you lol.
I start holidays Wednesday, so I'll have pleeeeeeeenty of free time to work on this (and my various, other projects xP)
But, just to clarrify, you want me to make a new Thread in the "The SEE Mod & Forums" section, where I'll post everything I've got so far, and update that Thread. Then, when I post in the "Suggestions for..." Threads here, provide a link to the Thread I made?
Cheers,
-mike

[Haus]

I've been playing around with Isengard quite a bit lately. It seems very lacking. A thin choice of units, heroes, and siege weapons(which really need help, I find the faction horrible at sieging; nothing like their siege of Helm's Deep) and finally their very weak spell book make them less than adequate.

Summon Smaug was an interesting addition, but it only seems to be about even to the meteor storm in power, where it should be as devastating as the fire rain that Mordor has, if not even greater since Smaug has the possibility of being killed. I find summon dragon to be a joke all together. It's a slow ground unit like the Balrog but has very few hit points, no special attacks, and seems very susceptible to arrows. I hardly even find it worth it to bother with the spell, as the dragon often dies before it can do much damage; sometimes none. Isengard used to be one of my favorite factions, but was reduced to the my second least favorite, only besting Moria which I also used to enjoy.

More than anything, I think they need a boost in siege power. In the story, their temporary victory comes from their explosives, and one can mirror this with two units. Neither unit is particularly useful in the game, especially in the mod, but I think they should be an important aspect of Isengard siege tactics. Also, with no wall upgrades available, they aren't all that impressive at defense either. They're pretty good at unit to unit combat, but Mordor outdoes them there as well as defending and laying siege rather easily.

Isengard lacks in heroes, and although most of them are quite nice, a few of them could use an abilities overhaul. The Fel Beasts are not only sort of lame(though I have no suggestions on what flying characters one could replace them with), they are also the same cost as the good factions' eagles and are nowhere near as powerful.

Finally, I think workers should have their Command Cost reduced to 1. They are completely worthless except to attempt to bring down an Ent and take up many valuable command points.

[Jonasking]

I dont like the Iengard Orcs. I think we should scrap them and have Scouts be the Early game Isengard spam with Dunlnders limited to 4-6 batts since Sarumon didnt have that many at his disposle.

Same for Hobbits, limet them since the AI goes crazy with Hobbit Spam.

Not so many Dunlendings ? He had 3000 in the battle for Helms Deep

[Jonasking]

No way man, Saruman was totally owned by white Gandalf. He took a fireball to the face and didn't even flinch and then he broke saruman's staff like nothin'. Then again the fireball thing probably had more to do with Narya, the elvish ring of fire he had. Is that a spoiler to anybody here? Should I be punished for that? I don't know. That might be something to do, if possible, make Gandalf more resistant to fire. This might be a better post in the MOTW faction thread, BUT I WAS ON THE SUBJECT AT HAND.

Now I got a idea . The fireball should do non damage on Gandalf the white , but on Gandalf the Grey

[GilGalad]

Now I got a idea . The fireball should do non damage on Gandalf the white , but on Gandalf the Grey

I disagree (spelling?), Gandalf had Narya since he came to Middle-Earth, he received from Cirdan as a gift, i donth think if he should be immune (spelling?) to fire (remember the fight with the Balrog, if he were immune to fire he would gon on melee fight), i think he should have a reduction damage to fire ( not too much), and when he transform into White the reduction get a few bigger.

My idea for Saruman is to give him a power like Word of Power or the lvl 10 Grima's power, like sad in the books and by Cristopher Lee (Saruman on the movies) and by Aragorn, the power of Saruman is on the voice.In the film and in the book he tries to convince Theoden to defect to his side only by using his voice, and he almost did.

quote from the movie:
"Do not le him speak he will use an spell on us"
I think it is it what Aragorn sad on Fangorn Forest

[Servant of Sauron]

I think Saruman should, given that his power was in his voice, use more subtle powers than Gandalf. I'd have to think about what those would be, though.

Also, since this mod is based on the movies (and no Orcs of Isengard made any sort of appearance during the movies) I would leave them out and keep Uruk Scouts and Wild Men as Isengard's early game units.

[Grubbo]

I think Saruman should, given that his power was in his voice, use more subtle powers than Gandalf. I'd have to think about what those would be, though.

Also, since this mod is based on the movies (and no Orcs of Isengard made any sort of appearance during the movies) I would leave them out and keep Uruk Scouts and Wild Men as Isengard's early game units.

I agree with the above post on all points. I have always thought that Saruman should have had the power of permanent possession of normal units and temporary possession of heroes. Grima should have a weaker version of this spell, with temporary effect on units and no effect on heroes.

[mike_]

I dunno know if he has it already, but Grima could have an anti-leadership power against enemy heroes.
Another thought - he could have an "entourage" of Orcs/Ruffians/Uruks that travel with him, as I imagine he would have a group of warriors protecting him when travelling between Orthanc and Edoras.
Cheers,
-mike

[Sûlherokhh]

If anyone would protect him, it should be Rohirrim, considering that a) he is one of them and b) going to Edoras accompanied by enemies of Rohan would be rather pointless. But all that would be before the war really started. I see the game starting AFTER the war has started and that would make him going to Edoras at all rather silly.

Apart from that, i think his Hero turning power is misplaced. It wasn't him but Saruman that put the charm on Theoden. The only thing he did was being a spy of Orthanc. He should have some other high end power, and Saruman should have his old power instead.

[mike_]

Well, in one of the books it says that he was seen by some Riders after his expulsion fleeing north with a company of Orcs..
And I agree with you that that power is somewhat displaced, I honestly think an anti-leadership would suit him more..
Cheers,
-mike