45 replies to this topic

[Pendaelose]

Alias,

I think you are grossly underestimating other players. There are lots of ways to very effectivly stop an infantry rush. Sure, you can suprise a player with it and the game is over only 3 minutes in, but thats a suprise that onlyhappens once. After they know you're going to bumb rush them they tend to do things like play flame general or robot general and then they can completely crush your infantry rush with imputence and you're left wondering why didn't it work a second time???

Ofcourse they don't need to play those generals to crush infantry, but it certainly works best for those 2. Chem will be the 3rd uber-infantry crusher.


In the long run the infanry rush is a seriously overhyped idea... its effectivness is not dramaicly differnt than a humvee rush or rank rush, etc. The power is not in the infantry swarms at all, but rather attacking your enemy in the first 30 seconds of game. It doens't matter what unit you used. and like I've said, if you see it comming its easy to stop, because the defender can build everything the attacker builds and he has home-field advantage.

[Alias]

Well, we're both stubborn mules and it's your mod, so I'm going to quit arguing otherwise this'll last until the apocalypse.

Thankyou, and goodbye.

~Alias

[Pendaelose]

I'm giving Alias's point the benefit of the doubt. I'm taking it seriously, I have form the start.

I agree that infantry are very powerful, especialy in the early game, but I also feel they are easy to consistantly counter. Though, if a player is suprised he will certainly be crushed by it.

Just because I don't wholey agree with Alias that they are an uber-powerful force, doesn't mean its not worth seriously looking at.



This morning I had the idea to make infantry squads require a strat center. This would ease the concerns of Early Game super infantry rushes, but would apease players such as myself who love the squads, but not for rushing.


I am also moving the balance discusion from the Banter topic to here.

[Capt.Drake]

Since I in general only use Mechanized Infantry I don't need squads that much, but they are usefull, but when the shit hits the fan I really love to pump out infantry more esaly
And Pend one of the post is completly of topic^^ it's my one in the middel of the discussion, but I guess nobody ever read it^^

Edited by Capt.Drake, 12 September 2007 - 02:35 PM.

[Pendaelose]

Since I in general only use Mechanized Infantry I don't need squads that much, but they are usefull, but when the shit hits the fan I really love to pump out infantry more esaly

Personaly, I use infantry on foot scattered with my base defenses. I also ama big beleiver in spamming infantry as soon as I'm under attack. I usualy keep a few bararcks just for this.

I also love garisoning every building in the middle of the map with defenders. Its not much help vs a mixed ground force, but its great for screwing up skermishing aircraft. (until they get pissed off and build a dozen stealth bombers to clear me out, but that has value too)

And Pend one of the post is completly of topic^^ it's my one in the middel of the discussion, but I guess nobody ever read it^^

I read it, I just happened to move it over by accedent. It wasn't one of Gred's Leonidas spams, so I thaught it may have been part of the discusion. I was clicking fast.

I've moved it back to the banter area.

Edited by Pendaelose, 12 September 2007 - 03:01 PM.

[olli]

Infantry in the early game ARE very powerful. I agree to this 100%. I feel they should be powerful, and that the Rush is easily countered, but it is a valid point that countering that rush requires pre-planning. If you don't expect it you are doomed.

that makes me lol because you have to have a complete lapse of concentration or be a moron not to build defenses. building defenses isnt pre planning, and building them regardless should be part of a good player's routine. a good player should always expect it and build defenses any way. then whilst the defenses are holding the line, other anti infantry units should be coming to help support

i always build them straight away, so by the time a large infantry rush arrives, i have like 5-8 gattling cannons (or other anti infantry defense equivilants) as a minimum, and they all get chewed up and spat out with out harming my structures.

[Pendaelose]

I think the question at this point is not wether a massed infantry rush is possible, or if it can be countered... the answer to both is obviously yes.

The question is should it be rebalanced so its not possible???

Early game rushes would still be possible, and many would stil lbe highly effective. It would simply take the teeth away from a massed infantry horde.

(btw, I am counting infantry general seperate from all of these arguments)

[olli]

i dont want them changed personally...because i am fine with them.
a lot of remix players like them and have grown accustomed to them, and changing them would be like taking candy from a baby.....

[Pendaelose]

You know I'm heartless enough to take candy from babies!

I'm going to wait until theres a good 10-15 votes (if I can get that many). If more than a 1/3rd or so are worried about early game balance I'll add the strat center requirement. It won't change much, it will just prevent rushing in mobs before the first couple minutes. But I'll only change it if atleast a 1/3rd of voters are worried about it.

[olli]

yes i do know you are....you threatened to destroy your own child for taking your bio shock serial number

[Phoenix911]

Pend why not drop this u have said yourself and so have i and others that its is "balanced", YES a rush is possable but YES it is easy to counter as well as all sides have a very good way of countering infantry. Use your own as well thats what there for.

Also if u make it so strat center is needed for squads then that would make the game unbalanced.
If infantry general would still have squads and could rush and walk over others as they would lack the abilty to counter the rush as alot of sides use infantry effectivly as anti infantry and armor in a "defensive" role cheep and quick to produce.
But if u remove infantry general from being able to have squads earily game like all other sides then u will be find that the infantry general then becomes very weak troop crawlers and other such u do not get eairly.

I personly think and most if not all of us here including u pend agree on 1 thing they are powerful in defence and can be powerful in a rush BUT we all know they can be countered very easily and as stated before if u beat a person with a infantry rush once then that person will learn and counter your rush more effectivly making u then say "wtf how did my infantry rush not work this time"

Remember.
1) all sides have anti infantry defences.
2) all have infantry (all but 3 can have squads) but the 3 that can't build squads get other capable units able to counter infantry.
3) mortars/artillary attacking a mass infantry rush will ripe it down to size letting the defending force infantry and anti infantry units mop up the left overs.
4) and one of the most noticable factors is "defending side has the homefield advantage" there troops and units do not need to run miles to reinforce there army

so that being said it is clear that mostly everyone that plays this and many of the testers find the infantry balanced and fair.


And lastly alias remember 2 things.
Infantry in shockwave maybe balanced for shockwave but the same balance for that mod wont work with other mods as all mods are balanced differently.
And secondly your idea of balance and others ideas of balance is different, I respect that u may not feel its balanced but if u do not like it then play shockwave.

O yer and i still don't see how your logic about quicker games make a mod last longer it makes no sence.
Mods last longer if it has "great" gameplay not if it has 100 units it will last 100 games, Not only that if all your games are 5-10 mins long like u said then the time period u have to get to higher techs in other words u wont get to the higher tech units as your games finished before u get higher.

[olli]

all have infantry (all but 3 can have squads) but the 3 that can't build squads get other capable units able to get higher.

just to point out... all generals but 1 from each side cant build squads. the ones that cant are cyber, tank, and chem general.

[Alias]

Remember.
1) all sides have anti infantry defences.
2) all have infantry (all but 3 can have squads) but the 3 that can't build squads get other capable units able to counter infantry.
3) mortars/artillary attacking a mass infantry rush will ripe it down to size letting the defending force infantry and anti infantry units mop up the left overs.
4) and one of the most noticable factors is "defending side has the homefield advantage" there troops and units do not need to run miles to reinforce there army

1. Yes, but normally static defences aren't an urgent thing, and defensive tanks are, it is much more efficient to spend that money on units early game.
2. Yes, BUT in a game situation (where we don't know each other's strategies), I will have FAR more barracks than you, hence more infantry.
3. As I've said before, the scatter function was invented for a reason, to help infantry avoid artillery.
4. They might not need to run, but if I've got a constant stream and manage to build a barracks up on your side of the field you have no advantage.

And lastly alias remember 2 things.
Infantry in shockwave maybe balanced for shockwave but the same balance for that mod wont work with other mods as all mods are balanced differently.
And secondly your idea of balance and others ideas of balance is different, I respect that u may not feel its balanced but if u do not like it then play shockwave.

O yer and i still don't see how your logic about quicker games make a mod last longer it makes no sence.
Mods last longer if it has "great" gameplay not if it has 100 units it will last 100 games, Not only that if all your games are 5-10 mins long like u said then the time period u have to get to higher techs in other words u wont get to the higher tech units as your games finished before u get higher.

1. What the hell has ShockWave got to do with this? Yes I play it. Yes I like it. However it is nothing in the conversation, it's like saying "dominoes" in the middle of a conversation.

2. All people have their own opinion. I find during a game longer than 20 minutes you start to get bored of your general (which is why I almost always play random), and who cares about high-tech units? If you can win it early game, why does it matter?

On a finishing note, there's one thing I don't get yet.
Most of you think infantry "suck" and are "underpowered", yet you urge to keep squads.

This morning I had the idea to make infantry squads require a strat center. This would ease the concerns of Early Game super infantry rushes, but would apease players such as myself who love the squads, but not for rushing.

That sounds great, and thankyou for taking this into consideration.

Cheers,
~Alias.

Edited by Alias, 13 September 2007 - 07:21 AM.

[olli]

static defenses are 100% better than early anti infantry tanks...because they have much more armour.. and 3 hits from a rocket trooper to a static defense will hardly take any health off, but 3 shots to a tank will kill it. of course you should mix in things to your static defenses, but i find that static defenses can be a lifesaver, and the anti infantry static defenses really do work wonders, even if you keep pumping infantry to them, you will rank up very very rapidly,(whilst hardly loosing infantry) and whilist your messing around with barracks and infantry, there could be several 5 star powers coming your way.

[Alias]

static defenses are 100% better than early anti infantry tanks...because they have much more armour.. and 3 hits from a rocket trooper to a static defense will hardly take any health off, but 3 shots to a tank will kill it. of course you should mix in things to your static defenses, but i find that static defenses can be a lifesaver, and the anti infantry static defenses really do work wonders, even if you keep pumping infantry to them, you will rank up very very rapidly,(whilst hardly loosing infantry) and whilist your messing around with barracks and infantry, there could be several 5 star powers coming your way.

Which is exactly as a rusher does, they spread out a base a lot, and sell the Command Centre first thing after the second dozer comes out (3rd if you're not playing a 1v1).

You however over-estimate anti-infantry defence. 30 of so rocket troops (which are surprisingly cheap) with rifle infantry as a distraction/cannon fodder downs at least 2 or 3 spread out defences. If the defences aren't spread out I'll just walk right around them.

Edited by Alias, 13 September 2007 - 07:36 AM.

[olli]

why the hell would you sell your command centre?

and you cant sell in remix

[Pendaelose]

That too is going to depend on the map. If the map has strong choke points theres no practical way to walk around them. Also, don't forget the cost factor. While Infantry are produced 5 for the cost of 1(old price) the tanks and defenses are half the cost they used to be. In many cases this means your rocket squad is going to cost about 300 or so. Most base defenses only cost 300, so your only looking at a 5 to 1 on a cost vs cost. Thats much more balanced than just saying 30 vs 1. If your oponenet has any sense instead of sitting on his ass for the first 40 seconds he can build very effective defenses at affordable costs. If he places them wisely he can match your 30 infantry(first wave) with no less than 6 anti-infantry static defenses. (on maps such as fortress avalanch, that totaly lack any choke points I build my defenses at the corners of my buildings through out the base. This quickly adds up to some nasty kills zones when combined with building defenses such as security turrets or mines. (again, I always use and I recomend them to everyone)

Early game artillery is priced similarly to most early game units, between 300 and 400... So you can have the same number of artillery guns ready to reinforce your defenses for the second wave. (still less than a minute into the game). Massed, high scatter artillery very effectivly negates the use of the scatter funtion on large infantry groups. The more troops you have, the less effective scatter becomes because the more there are the farther they ahave to walk to become fanned out. AND if you keep them all fully fanned out all the time it means they will lack any benefit of concentrated fire on a target because they will be walking up in ones and twos up to the defenses. Its a trade off, do you want massed fire power, or do you want survivability vs artillery, you can't have both, no amtter how much or how fast you use the scatter.

In addition to defenses and artillery, you can always counter infantry with infantry. you don't have to have as many barracks as your enemy to defend because your own infantry are suplemental to your base defenses and artillery. Also, your distance to the combat zone directly effects hoq many barracks you need because your infantry only have to cross your base to enter combat. If your troops are entering combat within the first few seconds you will need far fewer troops too keep up a stream than someone who marched across the map and walked into base defenses.

Another trick that helps enormusly (and I always use, I'm sure I'm not alone) is within the first few seconds of game I send exactly 1 ranger to each major choke point, nutral building, and base start position on the map. It only takes 1-3 squads depending on the map. Very effectively it gives total overview of the map, tells the enemy start location and gives you several (30-60) seconds warning if your enemy is rushing, and what path they are taking, as well as capturing every nutral building... if I can't keep them thats fine, it just garentees I know which ones the enemy has.

These are all valid ways to very effectivly counter an infantry rush... maybe most players don't do these things, but any player can. They are strategies that are not specificly geared towards countering any one unit type, and are an effective game start for both offense and defense. Stopping any early game rush is a matter of skillful playing and is the player's responsability because all generals are full capable of building the weapons and units required to do so. Its not a matter of mod balance, but rather matter of play styles.

and:
The final most effect solution is... if rushing is ending your game to quickly... you don't have to rush. most players won't rush you, so you have no one but yourself to blame if you crush a player in 60 seconds. Sure, you can play again and they'll counter it this time... but why did you end the first game in 60 seconds knowing they wouldn't be ready??? and then complain the game ended to quickly???

I personaly consider rushing within the first couple minutes very rude simply because it robs the other players of thier fun... fair, absolutly, it's not cheating, but it is rude. And if the game is over so soon I have to wonder what fun did anyone get from it??? did you have fun playing?? or did you have fun knowing you beat someone?? they arn't the same thing at all.

You have to ask yourself if you are playing a game for the fun of playing, or if you are playing a tournament to WIN. and then ask yourself if your oponenent is doing the same thing? Are you going to win a competition fair and square? Or are you just about to ruin somebody's casual R&R time?? That little difference makes all the difference in the world to the other guy. Did you acomplish something to be proud of or did you just make an ass of yourself??

Myself, I start my game fast and agresivly securing my territoy, and a couple minutes later am sending out my early skirmish parties of 10-20 mixed artillery and anti-infantry units. Its not intended to break an enemy base, but rather simply probe its defeneses while I build my strat center and get ready for a real attack around the 5 minute mark. Ofcourse sometimes I squish the other player with my probe... if that happens I just wipe about half thier base (maybe just a little more) but I leave them a dozer and I leave. I retreat! winning too fast isn't fun. I know I can win almost any game I play if I single out people, but I'd rather just skermish until everyone on os a good footing and people's play styles really get to show, its more fun.... and in a 3+ player game I love to piss off every player on the map

I like to play with TeamSpeak or Ventrilo for every game and laugh and joke with the other guys. If theres a few of them I'll do the suicide move of attacking them both at the same time... it keeps anyone from feeling singled out, and it really raises the enjoyment level of the game for me because I'm sure I can win 1vs1 (if you single out one person out of 5 its still a 1vs1 for that few minutes) but to have fun I have to feel the danger and risk... so I get everyones attention just so I can fight a rediculus desperate battle vs the whole map. I'm certian I'll loose when I pull that crap with good players, but I always do it anyway just because it really is so damned much fun.



btw, I've played with probably 80% of all the players on the Remix forum. Most will quickly attest that's exactly what I do... I play to have fun, and I do what I can to make sure everyone eles in the game has fun. I've played certain rounds just to convince people that a certain general or tactic is stronger than they thaught, these rounds are fast and brutal, but they are also the exception. (infantry general and massed mid-game infantry was a much debated topic, until I squished the non beleivers )

[Phoenix911]

All players shoud be able to adapt alias so even if they do not know you or your play style, as pend has said before and i agree with him. You may win once but when that person KNOW u are a rush player then they will counter your rush with an effective stratagy, only a new player or someone who aint good at PvP would lose to u a number of times but on a even skill level game it works out fine.

And as u said we don't know u so HOW do u know us? a many number of us may build a number of barraks as well, and the homefield team plus a mix of anti infantry defences will stop u dead.
And only a n00b would let u get close to him and build a barracks.

Artillary is still effective if u are rushign with as many troops as u say then there will still be groups of them maybe not as bunched up as if they was if u did not use the scatter butten but u would still take a good number of casualtys.

You under estimate other players and over rate your skill and tactics.
U probley only ever play on tiny 1v1 maps or 2v2 maps and so it most probley would seem that infantry is over powered because they can come out there barrcks and knock on the enemy doors in only a couple of seconds.

[Alias]

And only a n00b would let u get close to him and build a barracks.

Or someone getting completely raped by infantry.

You under estimate other players and over rate your skill and tactics.
U probley only ever play on tiny 1v1 maps or 2v2 maps and so it most probley would seem that infantry is over powered because they can come out there barrcks and knock on the enemy doors in only a couple of seconds.

Playing a 1v1 on an 8 player map is both completely stupid and turtle heaven.

Edited by Alias, 14 September 2007 - 08:25 AM.

[Phoenix911]

And only a n00b would let u get close to him and build a barracks.

Or someone getting completely raped by infantry.

You under estimate other players and over rate your skill and tactics.
U probley only ever play on tiny 1v1 maps or 2v2 maps and so it most probley would seem that infantry is over powered because they can come out there barrcks and knock on the enemy doors in only a couple of seconds.

Playing a 1v1 on an 8 player map is both completely stupid and turtle heaven.

Again overrating your skills, a n00b would get pawned and would let u get close and build.
However as i said many times a good player who is equal in your skill or more so will counter u wish much ease and it maybe u who is over run, Just because u rush does not mean that u are the only 1 capable of rushing.
Also a "good" turtle player knows how to defend from the start of battle.
Also lets not forget that the enemy has the same amount of time as u to build a base and units.

Well than stop playing on tiny maps a 6 player map aint too big and it has enough space to spread and enough space to actually use "tactics" this game is a stratagy right?
And besides you really annoy me acting superior to everyone.
"or someone getting completely raped by infantry" and other such comments... I am not saying your a bad player but u must really think your a god if u think that no matter what anyone does u will win.
I guess everyone you know or play with are n00bs and so u taste victory alot, and i not insulting or being mean but its arrogant peaple like u that destroy the fun in games and communitys.