167 replies to this topic

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Changes:

- SM dreadnought doesn't update to ranged weaponry anymore

- Generator building more dynamic (We'll see if it works...)

- Added air units to heroes special mod

- Restricted Necron scarabs to 1 unit

- Added fixed game mode files for annihilation, assassination, and destroyHQ victory conditions

- Some race changes

- Capturing tolerance should be a bit more sensible now

- Some code optimizations and fixes

[Zenoth]

- SM dreadnought doesn't update to ranged weaponry anymore

I must admit that I've missed much of the "debate" about that one, but overall why such a decision is taken? Is it a test and if it doesn't end up being worth it you will put it back in? I've seen plenty of situations (in DC) where Dreadnoughts with the ranged weapon upgrade prevented the evacuation of adventurous enemy builder units outside of their main base during an assault, which in turn prevented them go relocate elsewhere, granted it didn't happen that often, but now I know that such an advantage is no more, at least not for this build. There's other uses for that upgrade, and it's not that expensive, and gets virtually free in Tier 3 and 4.

I know there's a thread about this subject around I'll go take some time to see what happened about that.

EDIT: Alright I've read the whole of the thread discussing this. I agree then, it had to but cut out due to the way the A.I uses it and how it decides it needs to upgrade (it sees the map, takes decisions based on what the enemy has to most, and so on). I thought it was more of a "local" decision, for instance deciding it needed to get a ranged upgrade due to the presence of many infantry units rather than many vehicles. Ignore my comment, I'll do with it without problems.

After all the Hellfire Dreadnought isn't there for nothing...

By the way, thudo, are you planning to send this build today to the testers?

Edited by Zenoth, 18 March 2008 - 11:31 PM.

[Semiphar]

It's because upgrading it seems to cut its melee DPS in half.

Restricted Necron scarabs to 1 unit

Is it the Attack Scarabs or Builder Scarabs? I assume it's the former. Agreed, seemed a little strange seeing a few squads of scarabs trying to make it across a zone while the Tomb Spyder has been under attack since before.

[Zenoth]

It's because upgrading it seems to cut its melee DPS in half.

But when you don't need your Dreadnought to melee anything is where its ranged upgrade comes into play. However being able to reason the upgrade is unique to us humans, the A.I is just selective. If the A.I can revolve around the Hellfire Dreadnought to compensate for long range needs then it's alright. To my eyes it wasn't a "loosing melee effectiveness" issue to start with, but more how the A.I took its decisions and why it would use the upgrade. But that's just me, I'm a tester, but we're all playing the game differently.

[dreddnott]

But when you don't need your Dreadnought to melee anything is where its ranged upgrade comes into play. However being able to reason the upgrade is unique to us humans, the A.I is just selective. If the A.I can revolve around the Hellfire Dreadnought to compensate for long range needs then it's alright. To my eyes it wasn't a "loosing melee effectiveness" issue to start with, but more how the A.I took its decisions and why it would use the upgrade. But that's just me, I'm a tester, but we're all playing the game differently.

Another point I've just discovered is that in Soulstorm 1.0, the Space Marine Dreadnought ranged weapon upgrades now have greatly reduced accuracy while on the move. In Dark Crusade it made some sense because Dreadnoughts did the same amount of damage while moving...and the AI is always moving its Dreadnoughts!

[Semiphar]

Okay, let's just say theoretically that upgrading the Dreadnaught does not remove some of its combat potential. Then why not upgrade it? It's not affected by FotM penalties and it's not like the upgrades aren't powerful, I think the Automatic has the same DPS as a Heavy Bolter (If it isn't a Heavy Bolter, even) and the laser cannon does have a good damage per hit. The upgrades are cheap as well.

What I'm saying is, if I've got one sandwich with cheese and one with ham, I'm not going to turn down a cheap additional piece of cheese for my ham sandwich just because I have a desire for a ham sandwich. Even though the cheese sandwich compensates for my desire for cheese, it will be even better if the ham sandwich has a bit of cheese in it.

Do you see my analogy? I think it's a bit blurry.

Edit:

Another point I've just discovered is that in Soulstorm 1.0, the Space Marine Dreadnought ranged weapon upgrades now have greatly reduced accuracy while on the move. In Dark Crusade it made some sense because Dreadnoughts did the same amount of damage while moving...and the AI is always moving its Dreadnoughts!

That pretty much disproves what I just said. Nevermind this post.

Edited by Semiphar, 18 March 2008 - 11:55 PM.

[Zenoth]

The best thing we can do for now and before the final build goes public is test it with it disabled entirely and then we'll all be able to properly decide as a team what's best. And then later on after it goes public the coders will receive hundreds of comments and suggestions. This subject is far from being a case closed, but at least as long as Beta builds are concerned, indeed, we should do without it and see how it ends up like.

[thudo]

@Zenoth - I utterly fear the dread that goes un-upgraded. Seriously.. when I see it now I feel it shatter my bones. Its weird but to have such a Mech be ONLY designated as a pure CC monster while all its support staff around it are complementing it in the range department is a REAL fearsome combo. I'm with both Semiphar and Dreddnott on this one - that thing is utterly devastating especially with 2 of them bashing in your base. WoW.. I was reborne KHORNE!!!!!!!

Is it the Attack Scarabs or Builder Scarabs? I assume it's the former. Agreed, seemed a little strange seeing a few squads of scarabs trying to make it across a zone while the Tomb Spyder has been under attack since before.

Attack Scarabs.. it would be real silly of us to limit builders that Necrons need to build its cities. It too base Attack Scarabs in SS are now ONLY anti-air.. Bahhhhhhh! So we limit em now as why bother? If air units could only be attacked by very specific units or weapons then sure... but since air units are vulnerable to everything then.. meh.

[Semiphar]

Attack Scarabs.. it would be real silly of us to limit builders that Necrons need to build its cities. It too base Attack Scarabs in SS are now ONLY anti-air.. Bahhhhhhh! So we limit em now as why bother? If air units could only be attacked by very specific units or weapons then sure... but since air units are vulnerable to everything then.. meh.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Yeah, keep them away.

[Zenoth]

Keep in mind that I'm not "against" non-upgraded Dreadnoughts, I'm just saying, basically, that a mix of upgraded and non-upgraded ones could be useful. I do understand however that the A.I isn't intelligent enough to properly analyze the situation and use the upgrade's purpose correctly, for the A.I it's more like an aesthetic feature than a useful one, since they still go melee when they are upgraded, as if they didn't notice that they did upgrade it, even though they knew they had to due to the previous code. And as I said the Hellfire Dreadnought is there for something, and it has rockets.

Edited by Zenoth, 19 March 2008 - 02:36 AM.

[thudo]

Ok beta team - about to publish location for the first SS Advanced AI internal test session. Lets get at it when it happens.. standby...

[Semiphar]

Where exacly will it be published? In a PM?

[thudo]

Email..

[Capulin]

Can't wait.

Edited by Capulin, 19 March 2008 - 04:04 AM.

[thudo]

All emails are now sent to our 6 designated testers.. Now lets get some battlefield reports, folks!

POST EM IN HERE!

[Zenoth]

Report #1 for Beta 2

My first report isn't bringing good news. It concerns the single player. I still haven't tested in Skirmish mode, I just got the build in my e-mail. So I wanted to test if at least I could start up a Campaign properly, but alas, there's a bug causing a CTD. Fortunately I saved the error log and attached it.

Here's what I've done and what happened in details:

1) Installed the mod properly (checked if the files were placed alright, and it is alright indeed).
2) Started SS, making sure that the A.I mod was active, which it was.
3) Started a Campaign...

Now, when I start a Campaign I can go all the way to the Faction Selection screen (I can chose the difficulty setting before that). But as soon as I click on any of the Faction it CTD's.

That's the Call Stack I see in the log:

Call Stack:
0x7C812A7B: RaiseException		 (C:\WINDOWS\system32\kernel32.dll)
0x78158E89: CxxThrowException		 (C:\WINDOWS\WinSxS\x86_Microsoft.VC80.CRT_1fc8b3b9a1e18e3b_8.0.50727.1433_x-ww_5cf844d2\MSVCR80.dll)
0x0B23ADB4: GetDllVersion		 (C:\Program Files\THQ\Dawn of War - Soulstorm\WXPMod.dll)
0x0B23427F: GetDllVersion		 (C:\Program Files\THQ\Dawn of War - Soulstorm\WXPMod.dll)
0x616D5F73:		  ()

Now, I've also tried something else after that to make sure that it was indeed the A.I mode and SS. I started up Dark Crusade with the A.I mod, of course, and started a Campaign, and as I expected it worked fine. It has to be unique to this one guys, to SS. If it matters to mention, I've installed the mod with all of its features except for the Extended Camera, all the rest was selected.

Edited by Zenoth, 19 March 2008 - 10:22 AM.

[thudo]

Thanks Zenoth.. however those error logs since the beginnings of Dawn of War are always useless to the AI devs because its just binary jibberish.

So for the testers: there is no need to submit those kind of error logs. The only one that would be useful are console errors, the AI_log.txt and the AI traces. If it comes to it we will ask for those but thats rare.

Arkhan already tested the single player campaign with the build so obviously something got by. No biggie.. And yep I get the CTD when I click to START the campaign at the Select Your Commander screen.

Btw, the crash occurs when the \AI folder is present so it has nothing to do with scar, art, or scenarios. It might be because some campaign units are not properly scripted into the faction's respective unitstats.ai.

[Zenoth]

Oh sorry, thanks for pointing that out thudo. Well at least you've got a good idea on what's causing the crash.

I'm going to try a Skirmish in a moment, in good ol' Mountain Trail to start with.

[Capulin]

Okay, I've watched roughly 4 or 5 matches. And for the most part it seems pretty smooth, however in the very first match I noticed some things that I just wanted to mention.

It was a 4v4 on Rhean Jungle.

1. I watched a few encounters with SM v a Necron AI and the SM kept retreating deep into their base to a turret even though they held the advantage over the Necron. It wasn't a moral loss, and I couldn't find any real tactical reason for such a loss of will to fight. I've noticed a retreat take place now and then during awkward circumstances but... not quite like that.

2. I had spent a good deal of time reading your debate of whether or not a Dreadnaught should be upgraded... and I wish to raise another likened issue. - Should the Sisters of Battle's Immolator be allowed to upgrade initially. The poor thing upgrades quite often only to become useless as infantry swarm it.

3. I keep noticing that Dark Eldar and Sisters of Battle just get rather smote by others on the field (they rarely seem to last very long. Especially if another team is fielding a Necron or Tau army.) Not sure if it is an AI thing really, or an over all game balance issue.

4. I'm curious whether or not there is a coded "Help Me" feature in the Skirmish AI. It's hard for me to tell whether or not the AI is helping each other or just randomly swarming by and getting caught in a fight. I can remember thinking to myself quite often, "Gods, I wish one of those Damn AI would just send something to help me out while I'm fending off these 2 / 3 buggers." Do you think there might be a way to consider allied AI / Human players as members of its own immediate "home or army" and then get the AI to defend a weakened member of the team? Or perhaps link up for a combined assault? (There may be something in the AI like this - I honestly don't know.)

5. I was watching a Squiggoth carefully during an Orc advance and I couldn't help but notice that the squiggoth never charged into any massed groups of infantry. A - Is the Charge coded into the Skirmish AI to happen? And B - Is there a way to set this ability to go off like an "Orbital Bombardment" when it sees 1 or more groups of infantry?"

- If you need any specific types of info like saved games or exact game details - just say so and I'll gladly supply it. This is just mostly observation and thinking.

[thudo]

2. I had spent a good deal of time reading your debate of whether or not a Dreadnaught should be upgraded... and I wish to raise another likened issue. - Should the Sisters of Battle's Immolator be allowed to upgrade initially. The poor thing upgrades quite often only to become useless as infantry swarm it.

I think it utterly sux anyway but I find the Sisters are really lame in terms of being competitive. They just seem to fold like a bad deck of cards. :(

3. I keep noticing that Dark Eldar and Sisters of Battle just get rather smote by others on the field (they rarely seem to last very long. Especially if another team is fielding a Necron or Tau army.) Not sure if it is an AI thing really, or an over all game balance issue.

Dark Eldar isn't so bad but yep.. they are known for incredible speed but nowhere near the toughness of Marines. DE are QUITE fragile.

4. I'm curious whether or not there is a coded "Help Me" feature in the Skirmish AI. It's hard for me to tell whether or not the AI is helping each other or just randomly swarming by and getting caught in a fight. I can remember thinking to myself quite often, "Gods, I wish one of those Damn AI would just send something to help me out while I'm fending off these 2 / 3 buggers." Do you think there might be a way to consider allied AI / Human players as members of its own immediate "home or army" and then get the AI to defend a weakened member of the team? Or perhaps link up for a combined assault? (There may be something in the AI like this - I honestly don't know.)

AI allies are actually very good at helping their colleagues but map design, scripts, how large the invading army is.. and more can affect how an AI wants to help its friends. Remember, try different games on different maps against different factions..

5. I was watching a Squiggoth carefully during an Orc advance and I couldn't help but notice that the squiggoth never charged into any massed groups of infantry. A - Is the Charge coded into the Skirmish AI to happen? And B - Is there a way to set this ability to go off like an "Orbital Bombardment" when it sees 1 or more groups of infantry?"

YOu are referring to the Squiggoth's Ramage ability which, like the Tau Drone's Burrow and Necron's Summon Ability is an "extension ability" and thus hardcoded and not AI accessible. Trying to ask Relic to export more of those for the AI to use.