167 replies to this topic

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Okay, I've watched roughly 4 or 5 matches.

Did you play them or just watch AI battles? It's important that you play them since we can check the AI battles easily ourselves.

Arkhan already tested the single player campaign with the build so obviously something got by. No biggie.. And yep I get the CTD when I click to START the campaign at the Select Your Commander screen.

I didn't test it yet, but it seems to be a bit more complicated than in DC. It also seems to be a config problem since the battles haven't even started yet. I'll check that out.

[Smokeskin]

Match: 1v1
Factions: Tau (me) vs SoB
Game Modes Used: Standard
Map: Blood River
A.I Difficulty: Harder
Resources Rate: Normal
Resources Sharing: On
Winner: Me

Comments:
I harass/rush it with TC + FWs. I don't push it hard, but it never gets a decent sized army to come back from it.

Stalled unit:
At 3:09, at the SoB base near the river, there's a sisters squad standing completely still while getting shot at, I think my FWs are out of bolter range - it just gets cut down and doesn't retreat or move to fire.

Suggestions for AI improvement:
It makes several hopeless attacks, where it throws units away (4:57 and 6:10 as the first, it continues throughout the match).
It researches too much while being very, very short on units.
If it had focused on building units and holding them back until it could counterattack effectively, it would have fared much better.

Attached Files

•  2P_BLOOD_RIVER.2008_03_19.07_30_37.zip   136.01KB   5 downloads

Edited by Smokeskin, 19 March 2008 - 07:10 AM.

[dreddnott]

Just some tuning recommendations for Dark Eldar...

Talos should not be in the list of dancing vehicles in darkeldarvehicletactic.ai
Wyches should not be in the list of dancing infantry, but Scourges should, in darkeldarinfantrytactic.ai
DE AI never researches Mandrake infiltration (this one really kills them I think)
Wyches currently are not allowed to use Combat Drugs when their morale is broken (and not self.squad_ai:IsBroken()), but the ability restores morale and would be beneficial to use even if the squad is broken. Since it already checks to make sure the Wych squad is in combat, removing the condition that they be not broken should be all right.

[LarkinVB]

It researches too much while being very, very short on units.

This is one of my main griefs with the AI for a long time. For the DCPro AI I drastically raised the needed army strength for any kind of research/addon, be it in the build pogram or dynamic. Even a basic, non competitive T1 army has enough calculated strength points to trigger nearly all T1 researches as of now.

For the same reason I already suggested to reduce the number of capping squads to 1 in T1 on normal maps. Even better make the number of flag_capture dynamic, relating to total number of squads, maps size and tier. T1 AI desperatly needs a sizeable army.

Edited by LarkinVB, 19 March 2008 - 08:18 AM.

[Smokeskin]

@Zenoth - I utterly fear the dread that goes un-upgraded. Seriously.. when I see it now I feel it shatter my bones. Its weird but to have such a Mech be ONLY designated as a pure CC monster while all its support staff around it are complementing it in the range department is a REAL fearsome combo. I'm with both Semiphar and Dreddnott on this one - that thing is utterly devastating especially with 2 of them bashing in your base.

I haven't tested it, but RelicWiki http://wiki.reliccom...com/Dreadnought confirms that it indeed now has a FotM modifier, as Dreddnott pointed out. That seals the case completely. Even with the upgrade, you would still want the dreadnought to go running after units to get into melee, but now even that won't work. The case for not upgrading became 10 times stronger with the FotM.

[Smokeskin]

For the same reason I already suggested to reduce the number of capping squads beyond to 1 in T1 on normal maps. Even better make the number of flag_capture dynamic, relating to total number of squads, maps size and tier. T1 AI desperatly needs a sizeable army.

I agree on that too. I did notice a sisters squad moving out to capture something when they were needed badly for base defense. Most races shouldn't usually have more than 1 capper after the first 4-5 SPs have been capped, they'll be out fighting.

[dreddnott]

Well never mind about Mandrake infiltration, sort of...I did catch an AI player researching the upgrade but it was >20 minutes into the game!

Talos seem to be too eager to harvest souls even while being shot at.

AI Wyches are using ranged stance, won't charge at the enemy.

Edited by dreddnott, 19 March 2008 - 08:30 AM.

[LarkinVB]

Match: 1v1
Factions: Tau (me) vs SoB
Game Modes Used: Standard
Map: Blood River
A.I Difficulty: Harder
Resources Rate: Normal
Resources Sharing: On
Winner: Me

You spanked them hard. Some more observations :

1. Is AI commander harass stopped when enemy is already in base ? Cannoness seemed a bit confused when tau commander showed up and wandered around.
2. I guess it was the 6:00 minute attack when the cannoness displayed the dreaded behavior of attacking for CC but retreating close before contact.
3. At 9:00 a seraphim squad at upper relic stood motionless to be decimated by LP2.
4. As already stated AI researched to hard and did not mass enough.
5. Tau vs SoB is unfair !!!

[Smokeskin]

Cannoness seemed a bit confused when tau commander showed up and wandered around.

I don't know if you watched it from my angle, but she cast purifying light on my TC, totally blinding him So he more like stumbled around...

[Zenoth]

Report #2 for Beta 2

Players: SM (Me) + SoB, Vs. DE + Necrons
Winner: Me + SoB
Map: Doom Spiral
Difficulty: Hard
Resource Rate: Standard
Resource Sharing: Disabled
Heroes: Enabled

Additional Comments: It was an interesting battle overall, I liked the action. With that said I noticed a couple of things worthy to mention, including one issue regarding LP capturing (only by the Sisters of Battle, and only at one point, but was noticeable nonetheless) and a lot of back and forth behavior from the Sisters of Battle's units during assaults, along with the same behavior with the Dark Eldar's Slaves. I will have to test more, of course, to see if those behaviors can be seen on other maps.

1) Attacking priorities

At one point a Necron Warriors squad and the Necron Lord started attacking one of my LP's, seeing that and the fact that I couldn't properly counter attack them due to lack of units to do so I sent in my builders so that I could buy a few more seconds by repairing it while they fired at it. I thought at first that it was very risky because the Necron Warriors would (I thought) attack my builders right away.

To my surprise, not only did the Necron Lord ignored my builders, but the Necron Warriors too. They ignored my builders for a good minute or so, them desperately firing at a LP that seemingly refuses to die, and the Necron Lord who was probably having a couple of BSOD's trying to understand why its deathly strength failed him against such an insect of a treat.




Eventually though, they did (the Necron Warriors) attack my builders but only momentarily, only to try and back track their way to their base, but couldn't manage it since my Space Marines squads finally arrived and fought against them for a moment already, killing them all (well... if only Necrons could actually "die", but that's another story). So was it a priority related "issue"? I don't want to call it an issue though, it might well be explainable, I'm sure thudo, Larkin or Arkhan will come up with "oh but that's because of 'x'", although honestly I'd see no logical reason for choosing to endlessly attack an LP which is being repaired by enemy builders which themselves are well within the attacker's line of sight and should instead be the targets to prevent loosing precious time doing such a futile act. But that's just me perhaps.

2) Dark Eldars' Slaves going back and forth between the Necron's base and theirs

Starting at around five minutes or so I noticed that two Dark Eldars builders were having a little health walk between their base and their ally's. At first I thought that they might be searching for souls to harvest, but there were none at all, not even "around" it. They were more precisely going back and forth from a general area in their own base to a single Listening Post controlled by the Necrons which was very close to their (Necron) base. One of the wandering builders eventually definitely went back to his base, but the second one hesitated between perhaps offering his sorry soul to the C'Tan Gods or staying with his disturbing masochists family.




Eventually they both got killed, since in this match the DE died first. I will have to tets on other maps to see if that behavior repeats itself.

3) Single infantry squad melee a building within the enemy's main base

They say that the Sisters of Battle are courageous, and I can testify it now more than ever. At around 8:40 there's a Battle Sister Squad inside the Dark Eldar's very base valiantly letting know what's the power of the Emperor like to a poor Dark Foundry. I still am quite new myself with the lovely women of prosperous faith, but from what I understand, at least in the earlier Tiers, that specific infantry's ranged attacks is stronger than its melee attack's damage.

I'm trying to figure out why would such an infantry type (light infantry) even dare attacking inside an enemy's main base. It must have to do with the harassing tactics, but harassing an enemy after 8:00+ minutes of play the same way you'd harass them at 3:00+ minutes might not be very valuable anymore, at least not from a single light infantry squad. Now, even if it has nothing to do with harassing, which might well be the case (if I understood your guys' coding I could give more details and be more precise, of course), then would it be at least possible to make them attack the said target with their strongest attack type unless they have to go with the secondary one to survive? In other words, I'm talking about the attack type priority. If their ranged attack is stronger (even if just negligibly), and if that squad isn't in an immediate danger, than why would it be using its weaker attack. And above all... why in the Emperor's name would a Dark Foundry be the target of choice in the first place (why not a Listening Post instead).

This picture was taken a few seconds after they started to get attacked (finally) and left the building alone to go back to their base for gathering purposes.



4) Immolator attacking infantry after Melta upgrade

Perhaps a good source of discussion in the coming days and builds. We'll have to figure out a "just middle" for that, in the same way we reasoned the usage of the Dreadnought's ranged weapon upgrade. In this case however I do know that the Immolator's default attack is way more effective against infantry. If the Immolator is being upgraded, then its attack priorities should be switched to buildings that he knows the location(s) of in the map, instead of attacking infantry squads and doing minimal amounts of damage (and in my match let me tell you that the Necron Warriors didn't have any problems against any of the Immolators thrown at 'em).

The Immolator's Melta upgrade should certainly not be dismissed though. I've seen it in action in my match, and I know I wouldn't want a non-upgraded one mainly attacking buildings. So a mix of both with proper attack priorities could certainly help the cause in my opinion, and of course if at all feasible by the coders to do such changes if we deem them necessary in the end.



5) Listening Post capture hesitation by a SoB squad

At a single point in the match I've clearly seen a squad of Sisters Repentias starting to capture one of my previously owned Listening Post. I had lost it during a previous Necrons units confrontation, and the Sisters of Battle came to my aid (let me tell you I was more than happy when it happened since the Necrons were seriously threatening me by that moment, that's certainly answering one of the posts above concerning the A.I help behavior towards its allies, it works properly, they just need to be able to do it under proper circumstances, such as having enough units and/or resources to do so and more importantly not being under attack). After a few seconds they suddenly left their capture alone and back tracked.

Now here's the even more interesting point. When they went "back" towards their base I thought "ok, leaving that LP alone is not a good thing, but if they at least go away to gather than it might just be a problem with the gathering priority over the priority of capturing a LP"... but no. When they back tracked they did so to one of my own LP which was already taken since the early moments of the match. They did not gather per se, with any units at all. They just... you know, they just started to capture a LP, they left it before they were done capturing it, only to back track a small distance away for no apparent reasons (at least no visible to a tester's eyes). That same squad eventually joined a bigger group that was preparing to attack the Necrons for good this time, but that group in question already properly gathered its composing units moments earlier. In other words I don't clearly understand why they did that. At first glance, and I will repeat myself here, they did it because they thought they had to gather (perhaps with the bigger group I mentioned) and they left the LP alone before finishing capturing it. That means that, if it has to do with the gathering behavior, the priority for doing so (capturing a LP) should perhaps be revised.

On the other end of the spectrum it might have been related to the map itself... but I'm not sure.




6) Sisters of Battle units having a back and forth behavior

Ok, now this behavior is new to me. Well more or less.

I saw back and forth behaviors in many Beta builds in the DC days, but it usually concerned the builder units. Some times (and anyone back then who were testing with me and the coders too will certainly remember that) it concerned whole armies going from one point to another without ever approaching an enemy's base (and the enemy doing the same thing, resulting in an eternal A.I gathering-for-launch issue without attacking each others at all unless they somehow managed to get within each other's range at one point or another).

With that said, what I noticed with the Sisters of Battle during the majority of the match's duration is a mix between the two points mentioned in the previous paragraph, but to reduced extent. I'll do my best to explain it. It consists of having one group of units going for the enemy's base. Now let's pretend that the group is a mix of all types of units, infantry, vehicles, air units and heroes alike all participating in an assault. So far so good. But then, that's when it gets strange and the behavior is clearly observable. Let's be more precise, shall I...

Ok let's say you have three Battle Sisters Squad, a Canoness, two Immolators and two Penitent Engines, all of them properly seemingly moving altogether as one entity towards the enemy base. The issue in itself (if I can call the behavior an "issue") consists of having say... one of the Penitent Engine very abruptly separating itself from the "main group" to go in the group's opposite direction but only for a certain distance. It does not go back all the way to its base, nor even goes back to a Listening Post. It's just doing some back and forth moves between the main group's immediate surroundings and a "certain distance away". A distance away which is large enough to prevent the evaded unit from attacking with the main group at all, as it was I presume surely initially intended.

The behavior I'm referring to here can clearly be seen, at least in the match in question here, through the whole duration of it, and by all of the Sisters units. What I mean by "all" is that at one point you'd see the example I gave in the paragraph above, but that time it wouldn't be a Penitent Engine but would instead be a single... or perhaps two squads going away from the main assaulting group. Later you'd see air units doing the same, or even some times the Canoness. The behavior itself concerns I believe all of the faction's units really, from what I've seen.

Now why do I bring this point?

Well because that behavior was limited to the SoB. I did not see it happen with the Necrons nor the Dark Eldar.

Now a question would be: Is that behavior game-breaking? Is it negatively influencing the whole tactical decisions and actions of the faction? Would it have been noticeably better for them not to have such a behavior? All of those are good questions for which I'm afraid I don't have a definitive answer. In my match it did not really seem to affect their overall efficiency, quite honestly, but perhaps that given the proper situation it might have made the difference between loosing and winning a battle. If the behavior is intended, then I'm sorry to even point at it, however I'd like to understand the reasoning behind such a behavior.

Additionally please keep in please that all of the concerned units here did not go back to their base for repair. Some of them do that, but then it doesn't fall within the issue I'm referring to, it's a separate behavior altogether. It's very difficult to notice it with pictures, the best way is obviously to see it in action.

Here are a few edited pictures showing the "evading" unit(s) away from the main group...





Closing Comments: Well, phew... all of this only comes from having watched the replay once, and from having played only in a single Skirmish so far, and obviously concerns only three factions out of nine. There's much more to see and to do. But overall I must say that I am pleased by this build, outside of the few (so far) issues and concerns I'd say that the overall tactical decisions were good, and the defensive behavior was good too, for example I like to see turrets and mines around Listening Posts, it seems to occur more often than in Dark Crusade, which in my book is a good thing (more often than not did this A.I in DC filled the main bases with all available turrets instead of placing them on the front lines to hold more territory and to hold it more solidly).

Now all I need is more beers and a few more sandwiches for my next reports

Edited by Zenoth, 19 March 2008 - 10:23 AM.

[Zenoth]

Report #3 for Beta 2

This one is quite short, I've just noticed that any Skirmishes with the Fortress feature gives a Fatal Error during game play (Scar error):



I've tried with Massive Battles and that one works fine. It's just concerning Fortress.

[LarkinVB]

@Zenoth

I like your battle reports. A good laugh !
Note that we can't code the AI to target anything. That is hardcoded. Necrons shooting LP instead of builders and melta immolator attacking infantry is not avoidable.

[thudo]

Talos should not be in the list of dancing vehicles in darkeldarvehicletactic.ai
Talos seem to be too eager to harvest souls even while being shot at.

DE Talos does have issues with both Soul Gathering AND combat but this requires tweaking so we're quite aware. Personally, I would let is attack 50% more then Soul Gathering because the DoW AI basically disregards the Soul count anyway as mentioned and can fire off HQ abilities without it having enough souls to do it. Not sure how IL missed that one but oh well.

DE AI never researches Mandrake infiltration (this one really kills them I think)
Well never mind about Mandrake infiltration, sort of...I did catch an AI player researching the upgrade but it was >20 minutes into the game!

Yes they do BUT the requirement is that a single BloodHall building and that 2 Mandrake squads exist before the research is built. The research is also set to be built in Tier2. See a problem? If so we can correct this.

Wyches currently are not allowed to use Combat Drugs when their morale is broken (and not self.squad_ai:IsBroken()), but the ability restores morale and would be beneficial to use even if the squad is broken. Since it already checks to make sure the Wych squad is in combat, removing the condition that they be not broken should be all right.

Ahh good call.. we can tweak that.

AI Wyches are using ranged stance, won't charge at the enemy

Can be addressed.

As already stated AI researched to hard and did not mass enough.

WTF.. how the hell can the AI research when 90% of all researches are now out of the buildprograms and set with prereqs so that in order to research they need squads? <Grumble> AI cannot research unless it has an army -- thats what the new dynamic research has been scripted for.

Immolator attacking infantry after Melta upgrade

Yeaa well as Larkin said.. we cannot tell the AI to "focus fire" on specific targets. Thats like telling us to tell an Eldar FireDragon squad to ONLY hunt and attack enemy vehicles and thats it. Its hardcoded. The Sister's hardware is really pathetic anyway - I thought DarkEldar are fragile but Sisters live up to their "Rose" chapter because they are just as brittle. :( I also find their weapons do d*ck for damage except their abilities.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Just a quick update:

This one is quite short, I've just noticed that any Skirmishes with the Fortress feature gives a Fatal Error during game play (Scar error):

You played Fortress with Heroes and both mods collide with each other. I didn't know that, but I've fixed that now. It won't happen again in the next beta. You can still test if if you deactivate heroes at the moment.

Regarding the campaign crash:

This is caused because we've still old metamap AI code from DC included. It's easy to fix by just deleting the metamap folder. Won't happen again in next beta...

>> AI Wyches are using ranged stance, won't charge at the enemy
Can be addressed.

I don't think we can fix that. Some units are extremely stubborn if it comes to combat stances. I already tried to get Tau vespid squads to attack in melee back in DC and they simply ignored every stance command I gave them. It was hopeless. I highly doubt it'll be different with Wyches.

It researches too much while being very, very short on units.

Just decrease the tech speed in the AI control panel. This should better fit your play style.

[troubadour]

Match: 1v1
Factions: SM (me) vs DE
Game Modes Used: Standard
Map: Emeral River
A.I Difficulty: Hard
Resources Rate: Normal
Resources Sharing: Off
Winner: Me

Comments:
In AI control panel I reduced the Tech Speed to low in order to force the AI to build a large tier 1 army. Currently my BO is : 2 scouts for capping, servitor build braacks then 2 SM squad to AI base, scouts cap other points, servitors build LPs, 2 SM squad beat Archon + mandrake, then i reinforced my SM squads then built another SM squad (3 squad on the battlefield) and then FC, at the same time i upgrade to tier 2 and built an armory, sergeants + RL + plasma FTW.
I am an average player but with SS more focused on tier 1 i think the AI should build more basic squad and go to commander a bit later (except commander that are powerhouse such as FC and CL), my 2 cents
Other things i notice to counter Zenoth great report is that i was 'pleased' to see AI squad arriving at a LP under construction and killing my servitors and then LP, but it was an LP1 (no guns on it) so maybe that vs an LP2 targetting priorities change...

Edited by troubadour, 19 March 2008 - 02:55 PM.

[Capulin]

Another quick observation - again if you want more detail I'll glady go into it.

I keep noticing that the Tau always build "Mont'ka" instead of... I forget which building designates the Krooty path. Is this on purpose? Or is there some factor that designates which is built. (Personally I always find Krootox and Kroot hounds to be a little sturdier + extra range and armor for fire warriors.

Also, bloody Tau Commander is always bouncing about out of harms way. ( Not so much a AI fault as it is an aggrevation when you're trying to kill the blighter. ) - Shakes fist angrilly.

[thudo]

I keep noticing that the Tau always build "Mont'ka" instead of... I forget which building designates the Krooty path. Is this on purpose? Or is there some factor that designates which is built. (Personally I always find Krootox and Kroot hounds to be a little sturdier + extra range and armor for fire warriors.

Keep playing Tau Ai and eventually he'll do the Kauyon branch.. the problem is the first three buildprograms which include 2 Montka and 1 Kauyon are often more played then the 4th branch which is the other Kauyon.. thats why you tend to see more Montka branches by the Tau AI. We do need to change this so its balanced with 2 Montka and 2 Kauyon.

[Capulin]

2 v 2 Skirmish on Quatra

SoB (Me) + DE vs Chaos + SoB


As I was advancing into their base I was beset in the trenches by Khorne Berserkers with a Chaos Sorc attached to them. While this posed no real threat I did notice a very strange occurance. The Berserkers were firing and not fighting in Melee. I have a feeling that this was due to the Chaos Sorc being attached to the squad which changed their melee priority. They refused to close into CC even when provoked. Again, if you would like pictures or a replay, just ask.

[LarkinVB]

WTF.. how the hell can the AI research when 90% of all researches are now out of the buildprograms and set with prereqs so that in order to research they need squads? <Grumble> AI cannot research unless it has an army -- thats what the new dynamic research has been scripted for.

@Thudo: Sorry to say but most dynamic researches are very bad.
For example chaos: num_infanty_squad > 2 is satisfied with two basic infantry squads = always. There are no other squad/support cap requirements, all are set to 0. Therefore researches are just limited by tier. I strongly suggest to use the squad/support cap values. This is true for all races.

-- Dynamic research
	-- Item-Syntax: ResearchName, MinTier, RequisitionCost, PowerCost, MinSquadCap, MinSupportCap, SquadName, SquadMinCount
	local num_infantry_squads = self:CountSquads("chaos_squad_cultist")+ self:CountSquads("chaos_marine_squad")+ self:CountSquads("chaos_squad_raptor")+ self:CountSquads("chaos_squad_khorne_berserker") 
	local num_demon_squads = self:CountSquads("chaos_squad_possessed_marine")+ self:CountSquads("chaos_squad_obliterator")
	local num_commander_squads = self:CountSquads("chaos_squad_lord")+ self:CountSquads("chaos_squad_sorcerer")

	if (num_infantry_squads > 2) then
		self:DynamicResearch("chaos_max_weapons_research", 1, 75, 100, 0, 0, nil, 0)
		self:DynamicResearch("chaos_cultist_sight_research", 1, 25, 0, 0, 0, "chaos_squad_cultist", 1)
		self:DynamicResearch("chaos_furious_charge_research", 1, 50, 60, 0, 0, nil, 0)
		self:DynamicResearch("chaos_frag_grenade_research", 2, 25, 75, 0, 0, nil, 0)
		self:DynamicResearch("chaos_infiltration_research", 2, 100, 75, 0, 0, "chaos_squad_cultist", 2)
		self:DynamicResearch("chaos_purge_the_weak", 2, 100, 75, 0, 0, nil, 0)
		self:DynamicResearch("chaos_raptor_research", 2, 45, 25, 0, 0, "chaos_squad_raptor", 2)
		self:DynamicResearch("chaos_champion_melee_research_1", 2, 40, 20, 0, 0, nil, 0)
		self:DynamicResearch("chaos_plasma_pistol_research", 2, 60, 30, 0, 0, nil, 0)
		self:DynamicResearch("chaos_champion_melee_research_2", 2, 50, 30, 0, 0, nil, 0)
		self:DynamicResearch("chaos_infiltration_marine_research", 3, 150, 100, 0, 0, nil, 0)
		self:DynamicResearch("chaos_berserker_fear_research", 3, 100, 50, 0, 0, "chaos_squad_khorne_berserker", 1)
	end

[ArkhanTheBlack]

@Thudo: Sorry to say but most dynamic researches are very bad.
For example chaos: num_infanty_squad > 2 is satisfied with two basic infantry squads = always. There are no other squad/support cap requirements, all are set to 0. Therefore researches are just limited by tier. I strongly suggest to use the squad/support cap values. This is true for all races.

I agree! Researching chaos_max_weapons_research wih 75 / 100 just because 2 cultist squads are out surely isn't the smartest thing to do. I'll check the research conditions for the next beta. Tier2+ isn't so critical, but in tier 1 every point of req or power counts.