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#121 Smokeskin

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 05:14 PM

Match:1v1
Factions: SoB (Smokeskin) vs Necrons
Game Modes Used: Standard
Map: Battle Marshes
A.I Difficulty:Insane
Resources Rate: Normal
Resources Sharing: Off
Winner: AI

Match:1v1
Factions: SoB (Smokeskin) vs Space Marines
Game Modes Used: Standard
Map: Meeting of Minds
A.I Difficulty:Insane
Resources Rate: Normal
Resources Sharing: Off
Winner: AI

Match:1v1
Factions: SoB (Smokeskin) vs Chaos
Game Modes Used: Standard
Map: Blood River
A.I Difficulty:Insane
Resources Rate: Normal
Resources Sharing: Off
Winner: Me

Just a series of games, going through the races.

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#122 thudo

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 05:49 PM

I'm honestly shocked you can play on INSANE. Most will play on STANDARD or HARD (like me) and find it a bi*ch.
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#123 Xi-Xao

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 07:04 PM

Hello to all team members and users here on the forum. It's my first time here.
Not to waste any more of the precious space here let;s get to DE BO.

I've had a chance to test DE vs Eldar and SM on such type of maps as Eden and Hellfire Canyon against human player. As somebody mentioned before there's a Reaver Jetbike rush very popular nowdays. But I really can't see how it can work (included in AI strategy for example) on maps I mentioned early. We replayed the maps over and over to tune the BO for DE, Eldar and SM to the point where can be a battlefield balance established and we found out the following:

As DE BO consist of 3xMD+infiltration with Archon + Incubi following only few moments after, there's no way the races like Eldar and SM can counter and win without building at least 2 turrets. Harlequin tech does no good at all. Fast Banshees won't do much good as well. Reaver Jetbike rush gets you killed instantly on the opposite, so this tactic is not a good one. Is there a option for AI to chose it's strategy according the map/mapsize ? SM can't win with ASM building but again they can win or at least not to lose, when they build 2 bolter towers. One is not enough since MD eat them up.

DC AI of your making was/is a superb job, but playing it on Hard doesn't present much challenge. Harder and Insane are much more interesting. :rolleyes:

#124 LarkinVB

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 07:49 PM

As for the Harlies' Kiss'o'Death bug.. wow.. never heard of that one.. so yer telling me if a player uses that Harlies' ability the whole faction's economy immediately drops to 0/0 ?


It's the dance of death -> Relicnews

List of Bugs

Edited by LarkinVB, 22 March 2008 - 07:52 PM.


#125 thudo

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 07:51 PM

F*ck thats horrible.. Ouch! That needs resolution asap.
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#126 Smokeskin

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 02:14 AM

I'm honestly shocked you can play on INSANE. Most will play on STANDARD or HARD (like me) and find it a bi*ch.


Well, my first RTS was Dune II back in 1992 :p You pick up a few tricks on the way...

I also find that many RTS players play more base builder than front line commander. I practically never look at my base, I hotkey my buildings at 6-0 so I can build new units without leaving the fronts, and then I try to spend all my time fighting.

Arkhan mentioned something about me easily beating Insane. Not so. RTS games are about aggression and pushing yourself to the limit of how fast you can think and do stuff, and I do that. Playing your AI on Insane is quite stressful for me - I don't know if it looks easy but I really have to focus and put in a big effort, and if I mess up a little, or just don't know how to tech without floating or counter the race or some unit, it beats me. It's also very apparent that relative to the AI I'm stronger in the early game, and if I don't gain a solid advantage there it kicks my behind in mid/late game.

I'm really happy you guys have taken it upon yourselves to make this AI - I wouldn't be playing this game without it :p

#127 thudo

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 02:33 AM

My first major RTS was Dune2 circa 1992. I cannot say how utterly amazing it was back then.. I was quite impressed by it, the music.. how it had 3 sides each one with its own personality. Dawn of War is the ONLY RTS with 9 official different factions (two shy of the final 11) and to think Starcraft came out in May'98 and its paultry 3 factions are still not balanced so no one has a complain against DoW's 9.

Its our pleasure to do this and Beta3 should take things to new heights. I have even newer submissions to give to the team but we'll wait til Arkhan arrives back to provide em.

Btw, the new DE BO where he pumps out 3 Reaver Jetbikes and 1 Haemonculus is quite impressive. It pulls it off well. Equally impressive is the Sisters BO of teching quickly to Tier2 to then pump out 3 Lightning fighters (this is our first Aircraft BO). I'm thinking of reworking all other 7 factions 4th BO so its useful. Key is to gradually tech to their targeted spamming unit if its in Tier2. ie. the only way to get to Lightning Fighters fast is to first get out a Canoness and 2 Battle Sister squads to keep the enemy at-bay until Tier2. I could likely pump out more but we'll first see how this goes. The more Tier1 H.Infantry I push out so early on in a game, the greater chance of dominance.

Missionary Faith abilities: I'm not 100% sure, but I've never seen him use his abilities when attached to a squad?

Known issue Relic is supposed to fix.. Units when attached to squads SHOULD use their ability but its buggy.
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#128 Zenoth

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 02:49 AM

You must be proud Smokeskin, I know I would be, if I could beat their Insane A.I :p

I myself have started with the original Command & Conquer, back in around 1996 I believe, on the PlayStation version, I knew absolutely nothing of RTS'es back then, in fact I didn't even knew what genre it was and how I should have called that type of game. But all I knew is that I freakin' loved the cut-scenes, and the game itself of course. Gotta remember those Obelisks, no one liked to see even a single one of those on the field.

And just like you I wouldn't bother loosing my time with this game nor the actual series without this A.I modification (under its gaming form that is, because there are tons of books for the WH40K fluff to nourish my imagination with). It's amazing how a single community mod can really make the difference between keeping the game and playing it, or returning it for refund or selling it to an individual. I will be honest here, I barely played this game online since I bought DoW. I could perhaps count the number of games I've played, with strangers, at around fifteen, or no more than twenty or so, in a period of just a little more than three years. With friends, I played about the same number, and when I played with them it was for testing purposes with this modification back then when we mostly all experienced desync issues.

I gained most of my experience thanks to this A.I, or else... a beginner could beat me in a heart beat.

What I've learned with this A.I in particular (which doesn't apply with the vanilla one) is that you must not give it any tactically important territory. My strategies, so far, have been used on almost all of the games I played (it some times depend on the maps of course, but rarely depends on anything else than that). What I do is to get two or three T1 light infantry (or as I call them "scouts", simply), of course sending them to two or three LP's (or Relic is any, and/or CP if any), and then as early as I can to set up a minimal amount of defenses at the LP which is the nearest to the enemy's base, with mines and turrets.

The early harassing of this A.I is both its advantage and its disadvantage. With a player like me, using my tactics, they will sadly harass into my turrets and mines, which results in their death, most of the times (when they don't retreat, or when they just don't have time to because the damage coming from three turrets all firing at you is too great), and that in turn forces them to replace and/or reinforce their lost troops or entire squads. That means less requisition than they should have had. Some times this strategy fails, yes, but I must say that it occurs only rarely, only when I myself do a mistake, and not because the A.I suddenly found a better strategy to counter mine. If I played in any other ways I would probably get owned each and every single times.

With a player playing more (or too much) defensively, this A.I is a real threat. As soon as it gains enough territory, pretty much any factions under this A.I's control turns into a green wave of Orks coming at you non stop. Trying to gain the lost territory back, or trying to gain any non-controlled territory from the start is a real pain with this A.I. They won't stop coming at you, except for the often too brief moments you have to repair your damaged base when they decide to stop for a period to gather more troops to give you the final blow.

I can do with Harder with this A.I, it's "ok", but my winning and loosing ratio not so curiously changes from green to orange I'd say. If I played on Insane... I don't think that any of my strategies (and I don't have many) would work at all. If I played on Insane, I, and many others would have to play like you do Smokeskin, by barely looking at the base, which is one of the big down sides of not being an A.I ourselves and not seeing the whole map like the A.I does. They know where everything is, but we don't, they order commands to all troops at once if necessary, but that we can't do it. With shortcuts however, with key bindings, and a very offensive play, it has to work indeed.

My biggest nightmare with this A.I (and that's dating from as early as I can remember with Dark Crusade) is when I play against the Necrons. I hate them. If you want to discourage me from playing against you online, or against your A.I, outside of testing purposes, tell me that you or the A.I will be Necrons, and it will suffice. I absolutely despise that faction, and I don't even like to play as them either. They are cold... silent, depressingly indifferent, with the virtual confidence of their programs slowly and surely walking without a hurry towards their prey, knowing they will win... I can't stand it, I just can't.

Edited by Zenoth, 23 March 2008 - 02:54 AM.


#129 LarkinVB

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 09:14 AM

Can we stay on topic or start compiling a list of known problems. I fear that vital information is lost in this thread under the huge number of posts.

Watched one of smokeskins battles. I can easily sum it up : Too few squads, too many researches, big squads capping while rest of army is fighting nearby. Talos was useless, just gathering. DE had no jetbikes.

I'd like to see MoveToDisengage() with a parameter. This will be 'true' only while called by dancing code and 'false' for the rest of the calls. If it is 'true' squads with jump should not jump their max but only max 35 in case they are not the only AI squad in combat. This will allow them to continue combat again much sooner.

Edited by LarkinVB, 23 March 2008 - 09:15 AM.


#130 Semiphar

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 04:25 PM

Is anyone else experiencing CTDs when Necrons are involved? I've had 3 CTDs so far, on new Soulstorm maps and old DC/Pre-DC maps (Like Biffy's Peril). I don't know if it's related to the AI, but I think it's one of the Necron Lord's abilities that does it.

Missionary Faith abilities: I'm not 100% sure, but I've never seen him use his abilities when attached to a squad?


I've seen him use that Holy-Beam-Fire-thing when attached to a Battle Sisters Squad quite often. I don't know about the others, but they're hard to recognize.

#131 thudo

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 05:22 PM

Is anyone else experiencing CTDs when Necrons are involved? I've had 3 CTDs so far, on new Soulstorm maps and old DC/Pre-DC maps (Like Biffy's Peril). I don't know if it's related to the AI, but I think it's one of the Necron Lord's abilities that does it.


Well we'll have to look at having an All-Necron Battle but I've had Necrons in my games with no problems (unlike DE's Hellion's Tracking Device). So unsure what the problem is.

Edit: Well f**k me it CTD on my second 3vs3 All Necron Game. Gawd damn it.. WTF is up with SoulStorm for frig's sake? I wonder if it has to do with the DoPossess not working because the NL cannot become either the NB or Deceiver? Hmmmm.. have to run tests now.. sh*t.. this is really screwy...

Edit #2: Well disabled the NL's DoPosses feature in the DoAbilities() function and successfully played FOUR 3vs3 All-Necron games.. Well that was an easy fix until Relic resolves it. :p
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#132 Zenoth

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 08:19 PM

I've tried a 2 Vs 2 with all Necrons (including me), on Hard, and in Biffy's Peril to compare with Semiphar's observations. It didn't crashed, but it might have been because none of the NL's used that ability at all. I'll have to take a look at the replay, but if it didn't crashed and if you guys know that the usage of that ability is the cause then I have my answer, they just didn't used it. It was one hell of a fight though... I liked it.

#133 dreddnott

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 10:16 PM

I have had only one crash to desktop while testing Skirmish AI, and out of habit I blamed my computer.

There was at least one Necron player on the map, if I recall correctly.

#134 Smokeskin

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 11:16 PM

Funny experiment.

I just fiddled a bit with the AI for the sisters.

To the infantrytactic I added the reinforce code from the necron scarab builders so infantry squads reinforced to max always.

I then modified the strategyfile to build 4 sisters squads at the beginning, and bumped most research, turrets, lp upgrades and such to tier2.

With these changes in an AI vs AI battle it massed heavily and COMPLETELY wiped the floor against the other races. I messed with some other stuff so it went haywire at tier2, but by the time it hit t2 it had razed half the opponents buildings and had a huge army vs an opponent with nothing.

I'm sure this isn't the most effective strategy, but it certainly shows that the AI is capable to play much stronger with some altered BOs.

Edited by Smokeskin, 23 March 2008 - 11:16 PM.


#135 Zenoth

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 11:30 PM

Good job Smokeskin, perhaps if your implementations could be added to the official code, it'd be worth it at least to try it for a couple of builds, because right now with Beta 2 the Sisters of Battle literally gets ruined by any races I've seen them confront, unless I'm allied with them. The dominant races in Beta 2, from what I've seen myself are the Necrons, Space Marines, CSM and perhaps the Orks, the others are "so-so", and the SoB... it's depressingly easy to beat them.

#136 thudo

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 12:58 AM

As I said, both Sisters and DE BOs have drastically changed. I'm submitting even newer tweaks to Arkhan/Larkin tonight for use in Beta3. Wait for it. Sisters will NOT be easy to defeat now.

However, the intent of having 4 BOs is **NOT** to spam, say, 4 immediate Battle Sister squads per BO.. that would be boring.. Ohh sure we could do that but whats the point? We could easily make all BOs for each of the 9 factions simply totally steamroll over the enemy by just immediately spamming 1-2 types of units. However, that is NOT our intent. We want a balanced AI that works smartly.
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#137 LarkinVB

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 06:32 AM

We could easily make all BOs for each of the 9 factions simply totally steamroll over the enemy by just immediately spamming 1-2 types of units. However, that is NOT our intent. We want a balanced AI that works smartly.


True. But Smokeskin is pointing in the right direction. AI is usually lacking mass in lower tiers. I suggest steeper research requirements, greater army strength reqirements in BO's and perhaps even harsher requirements for army size before attacking.

If I look at Thudos changed dynamic researches for b3 (eldar for example) I see no real requirements. A check like
if (num_infantry_squads > 2) with a research squad requirement of 6 is basically the same as ' research always'.
Some month back I suggested to use army strength instead of squad/support pop as requirement for researches. I think it is much better as it really tells something about the fighting power on the field.

num_infantry_squads > 2 with a check for 6 squad pop is satisfied by three weak guardian squads (build at gamestart). This is really no requirement at all.

Edited by LarkinVB, 24 March 2008 - 07:10 AM.


#138 LarkinVB

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 07:58 AM

I think this replay
clearly shows some weakness of the AI. Please watch the AI attack like this :

1. Jump/teleport into base with just one squad, way ahead of the rest of the army.
2. Fight for a while.
3. Retreat with some troops in the middle of the fight, the rest will die.

Or :
Cap with a fully upgraded shoota squad, getting anihilated in the process.

Or:
Watch mega armored nobs or warboss running around without making real contact. As if the were not attack moving.

It was a bit painfull to see the AI acting on this map. Part surely is due to pathing but I think the attack strategies can be improved. There is no need to jump attack LPs by splitting up one squad while the army is in attack move.

Think this replay can be very educational.

Edited by LarkinVB, 24 March 2008 - 08:00 AM.


#139 Zenoth

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 08:49 AM

3. Retreat with some troops in the middle of the fight, the rest will die.
[...]

Or :
Cap with a fully upgraded shoota squad, getting anihilated in the process.


The retreating-while-assaulting behavior, leaving the rest of the attacking group dying, can be then linked to my second report here (6th point).

I thought it was unique to the SoB units, but then thudo said that such a behavior could well be seen for all factions since it was mostly due to a pathing issue. I even reported a capturing hesitation issue in that match (I.E squad capturing and suddenly leaving the capture process to move to point B for seemingly no reasons, not even for gathering... it just leaves its capture and voila).

And the capping-while-under-attack too was reported here (1st point).

But these behavior some times seem to come back from Betas to Betas, you guys are changing a lot of things in between, and the coding is certainly complex, and as I've been reminded often enough, there are those hard-coded restrictions we need to consider, such as pathing.

I haven't done a new elaborate report lately exactly because all of the issues I keep seeing are always the same, either hard-coded limitations or things directly related to your work but it has already been reported either by me, Someskin or other testers. I've also suggested the use of a single Tortured Slave, instead of two, for the DE's very early Tier 1 efforts, two Slaves were useless, and should only be trained if the original one dies. I know that Arkhan replied saying that it was a good idea but I don't know where it stands in the upcoming build. I shall see when it gets available.

#140 Smokeskin

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 09:06 AM

As I said, both Sisters and DE BOs have drastically changed. I'm submitting even newer tweaks to Arkhan/Larkin tonight for use in Beta3. Wait for it. Sisters will NOT be easy to defeat now.

However, the intent of having 4 BOs is **NOT** to spam, say, 4 immediate Battle Sister squads per BO.. that would be boring.. Ohh sure we could do that but whats the point? We could easily make all BOs for each of the 9 factions simply totally steamroll over the enemy by just immediately spamming 1-2 types of units. However, that is NOT our intent. We want a balanced AI that works smartly.


I 100% agree. I know you're already beefing up t1 for the beta, and it was just a funny experiment.

I was trying to figure out how I the code worked, but it wasn't doing what I was telling it (read: I don't know how to code it properly yet :rolleyes: ). So I just went with getting 1 code snippet to work at a time. The one I started with was squad reinforcement, and the effect was drastic.

I also think that what I did was not an optimal strategy. An AI that built 3 squads and reinforced them to 6 members constantly to stay in the game, only researched phosphour grenades and then teched to t2 earlier (because less spend on troops), then got the armour upgrade, and veterans and some heavy bolters for the squads, would probably keep such an attack at bay, then fight it off and proceed to win the match.

A balanced build wouldn't just be funnier to play but also more efficient.

But it showed me a few things:

Replacing losses: This one is major. I think not only is massing more units important, but also that losses are reinforced and lost squads are (at least mostly) rebuilt. In my experiment, one of the major difference was that those 11-woman sister squads reinforced all their losses, while the opponent just took its losses and never rebuilt. That was the major thing that allowed my monomanic SoB AI to win imo.

Strong capping squads: A side note, but I saw fully reinforced 11-woman sister squads go to cap CPs. Perhaps this was something I did wrong in the code, like the auto-reinforce building also applying to cappings squads, but some sort of strength check for capping squads should be implemented. Building a missionary to go capping so the 11-woman squad can be freed for combat is very optimal decision ;)

Edited by Smokeskin, 24 March 2008 - 09:07 AM.




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