167 replies to this topic

[troubadour]

Doh ! i shall stop beer while playing DoW - will check when back to home

[thudo]

Well it would be wrong to NOT encourage our designated testers to have a social life.

[runab0ut]

Just a question to you guys:

how random does the AI picks its BO or tactics? Since you mentioned earlier that "4th BO won't get used to often."

Would it be a bit better to see actual variety with equal weight spread like 25% chance to all four BO's? Instead of weighting BO's like... 10% chance to use the 4th BO?

With that... can it be easily added to the AI files to have off-the wall openers like mass cultist/scout techs or mas ASM spamming? I'm thinking it's risky as a tactic (more so to the AI), just to add variety?

Edited by runab0ut, 20 March 2008 - 04:35 PM.

[thudo]

All factions don't have enough "BO rush" variety in them to make more than 3 BOs. The 4th is just a luxury.

BOs are generally as such:

1) Standard Generic BO
2) Spam 1st major Tier1 Troops (ie. Marines) BO
3) Spam 2nd major Tier1 Troops (ie. Assault) BO
4) Highly Risky Rush to Tier2 Vehicles BO (very seldom used)

Btw, mass spamming CSM Cultists or SM Scouts isn't remotely wise vs the benefit. Its better to spam Tier1 H.Infantry.

Nevertheless, that is the reason we use 3 BOs and the 4th is infrequently used. For DE, however, we will use 4 BOs in balance because of the added Tier1 variety which isn't normal to DoW.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

how random does the AI picks its BO or tactics? Since you mentioned earlier that "4th BO won't get used to often."

Would it be a bit better to see actual variety with equal weight spread like 25% chance to all four BO's? Instead of weighting BO's like... 10% chance to use the 4th BO?

With that... can it be easily added to the AI files to have off-the wall openers like mass cultist/scout techs or mas ASM spamming? I'm thinking it's risky as a tactic (more so to the AI), just to add variety?

The build order selection is a bit more intelligent. Vehicle rushes are only allowed under certain circumstances. Other build programs are weighted depending on the races. The first build order however is usually the most allround and effective and has the heighest rating.

[jureidinim]

Just a question to you guys:

how random does the AI picks its BO or tactics? Since you mentioned earlier that "4th BO won't get used to often."

Would it be a bit better to see actual variety with equal weight spread like 25% chance to all four BO's? Instead of weighting BO's like... 10% chance to use the 4th BO?

With that... can it be easily added to the AI files to have off-the wall openers like mass cultist/scout techs or mas ASM spamming? I'm thinking it's risky as a tactic (more so to the AI), just to add variety?

EDIT: Never Mind I see thudo and arkhan responded already

Edited by jureidinim, 20 March 2008 - 04:57 PM.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Just a question:

Is it in T1 more effective to build the commander first or a combat squad. Commander is tougher, but the combat squad would get time to reinforce to full strength while the commander is built. At the moment the commander is first.

[thudo]

And the Commander being the first MAJOR Tier1 unit to be out has been a staple initial BO since Day0. Never had complaints to the contrary for this.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I still miss some reports if saving and reloading works like it should. Try big battles with lots of races at times of 10, 20 and 30 min to test it.

[Smokeskin]

Just a question:

Is it in T1 more effective to build the commander first or a combat squad. Commander is tougher, but the combat squad would get time to reinforce to full strength while the commander is built. At the moment the commander is first.

I like commander first. The advantage of combat squads are they can decap, but commanders are much better for combat.

I don't reinforce much early, it is much better to get more squads. Melee units can each tie up a ranged squad, so more squads are always better. It is also much easier to reinforce later with more squads, each are a factory of sorts.

[dreddnott]

The way I see it going for Dark Eldar, you'll want the first two strategies to start with the Hall of Blood, and the other two to start with the Dark Foundry.

Both of these strategies need to forego the other production building until Tier 2, otherwise the DE player is hamstrung by spending too much req/power on production buildings instead of a fighting force.

Now, I know you guys have a BuildOrderStrategyInfo in darkeldarstrategyinfo.ai that forces the Hall of Blood to be built immediately (like other races have their barracks forced), and this really slows down the Dark Eldar strategies that rely on the Dark Foundry (Hellion and Reaver rushes).

I tried commenting out the Hall of Blood and plasma generator in Basic and LargeMap (for QuickStart I changed one of the Halls of Blood to a Dark Foundry so it will always build both in QS), and after some tweaking to the four build orders I was able to get it to reliably start by building the appropriate building for the strategy, and avoid building the other one until Tier 2, when it could afford to diversify its strategy a bit.

Strategy 4, which I set to build just the Dark Foundry, 1 Hellion squad for early defense/harrassment, Haemonculus' Lab, and then rush with 4 Reaver Jetbikes, was very successful and can beat other AI players quite often. It hits T2 early, researches the Reaver accuracy buff, puts out 2 Raiders, and the rest depends on what the enemy does.

I'm still having issues with duplicate buildings in Tier 2, mostly Wych-Cult Arenas, but also Dark Foundry and Hall of Blood, when they're built for the first time in Tier 2 by AI players using the strategies that excluded either one in T1.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Just a quick side note:

I can confirm that the current harassing code was a bit buggy. It completely ignored the threat of turrets and fortified LP's. I've also made some other improvements to make it more efficient.

Therefore, enjoy your easy beating of harder and insane AI's! It won't be so easy in the next beta...

[dreddnott]

UPDATE: Fixed Wyches, Hellions, and Warp Beasts standing and shooting. Apparently it has to do with the Wych combat drugs ability, as when I commented it in darkeldarinfantrytactic.ai out they charged into melee with no problems. Wyches would freeze all the time but Hellions and Warp Beasts would only freeze and shoot some of the time (obviously only the Warp Beast Trainer actually fired).

I also tried creating a separate DarkEldarWychTactic just for the combat drugs ability, but that still caused Wyches to freeze in place and shoot. I don't know if there's a problem with the ability or if there's a typo in the code you're using to activate the ability, but removing it seems to be a temporary fix.

Also a minor graphical issue with the Haemonculus' Stinger research, it shows up as a pink box when you're observing an AI player researching it at a Wych-Cult Arena.

[Zenoth]

I still miss some reports if saving and reloading works like it should. Try big battles with lots of races at times of 10, 20 and 30 min to test it.

I've just tried two 4 Vs 4 matches (both in official maps, of course), with Heroes and Massive Battles (and oh boy they were massive indeed, you don't want to fight two Ork factions with that addon unless you know how to fight Orks). I had let them both run for at least 20 minutes and I saved. Then at around 40 minutes I saved again. So that's two saves per matches. I've been able to load them all without problems, no errors, everything smooth.

[troubadour]

* aehm * sorry i am stll nitpicking about the corrosion cloud for DE. I have performed several tests (no beer this morning)
Cause english is not my native langage i have misread the cloud tooltip, the cloud raises damage recieved but
does not damage anything per itself
The problem is that DE AI cast cloud (ok) but then does not attack the cloud target so the cloud effect is lost (nok)
So is there a way to use the cloud more efficiently ? For instance cast it at a location where a DE squad is in combat returns true
and not at an ennemy squad location

[Smokeskin]

Some quick observations on Tau:

Stealth burst cannon enhancements should not be researched, they shouldn't be used for combat in t1 and t2 they should go AV.

Stealth suits should upgrade to fusion blasters at t2, they don't seem to do this until t3. It makes them very good AV and antibuilding and it is one of the only options tau have early t2 for that.

Tau Commander should upgrade to missile launcher at t2 ASAP. Good disruption and some needed AV.

Tau Commander should upgrade to plasma rifle ASAP at t3.

Crisis suits should be more likely to upgrade to flamers, they are vicious.

Kroot Carnivores has a tendency to cannibalize while under fire.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Stealth burst cannon enhancements should not be researched, they shouldn't be used for combat in t1 and t2 they should go AV.

Stealth suits should upgrade to fusion blasters at t2, they don't seem to do this until t3. It makes them very good AV and antibuilding and it is one of the only options tau have early t2 for that.

Done.

Tau Commander should upgrade to missile launcher at t2 ASAP. Good disruption and some needed AV.

Tau Commander should upgrade to plasma rifle ASAP at t3.

Crisis suits should be more likely to upgrade to flamers, they are vicious.

We can't specify upgrades (Unfortunately).

* aehm * sorry i am stll nitpicking about the corrosion cloud for DE. I have performed several tests (no beer this morning)
Cause english is not my native langage i have misread the cloud tooltip, the cloud raises damage recieved but
does not damage anything per itself
The problem is that DE AI cast cloud (ok) but then does not attack the cloud target so the cloud effect is lost (nok)
So is there a way to use the cloud more efficiently ? For instance cast it at a location where a DE squad is in combat returns true
and not at an ennemy squad location

It should work correct now. Will only affect units under attack.

I've just tried two 4 Vs 4 matches (both in official maps, of course), with Heroes and Massive Battles (and oh boy they were massive indeed, you don't want to fight two Ork factions with that addon unless you know how to fight Orks). I had let them both run for at least 20 minutes and I saved. Then at around 40 minutes I saved again. So that's two saves per matches. I've been able to load them all without problems, no errors, everything smooth.

What's with the other races? Every race can cause an error, so I'd need a test result for all races. Though several races can be tested at once.

I also tried creating a separate DarkEldarWychTactic just for the combat drugs ability, but that still caused Wyches to freeze in place and shoot. I don't know if there's a problem with the ability or if there's a typo in the code you're using to activate the ability, but removing it seems to be a temporary fix.

I've made some changes to make it more accurate. We'll see if it works...

[Smokeskin]

Stealth burst cannon enhancements should not be researched, they shouldn't be used for combat in t1 and t2 they should go AV.

Stealth suits should upgrade to fusion blasters at t2, they don't seem to do this until t3. It makes them very good AV and antibuilding and it is one of the only options tau have early t2 for that.

Done.

Tau Commander should upgrade to missile launcher at t2 ASAP. Good disruption and some needed AV.

Tau Commander should upgrade to plasma rifle ASAP at t3.

Crisis suits should be more likely to upgrade to flamers, they are vicious.

We can't specify upgrades (Unfortunately).

Thudo mentioned fiddling with dreadnought's and immolator's upgrades, and you mention doing it for stealth suit fusion blasters. But it can't be done for crisis suits and commanders?

How does it work?

[Smokeskin]

Tau floats req very badly from midgame on, instead of just pumping out fire warriors with the excess req. It seems to be at 2-3000 req all late game.

[thudo]

So wait..

The DE HQ Ability. Corrosive Cloud, actually raises damage given on the target? WTF?!? That makes absolutely no sense.. what source do you have for this? The name of the ability + its info in its UCS would contradict you. Any pro players who use this ability can substantiate this? THis is crazy.. how can a "corrosive cloud" increase damage? That makes zero sense.

Hmmm so whats wrong now with Tau Commander and Stealth Suit weapons? I think this is getting a little carried away about such things. I can understand the SM Dread and Sister's Immolator.. However, if Arkhan finds a good alternative I am all ears.