167 replies to this topic

[jureidinim]

So wait..

The DE HQ Ability. Corrosive Cloud, actually raises damage given on the target? WTF?!? That makes absolutely no sense.. what source do you have for this? The name of the ability + its info in its UCS would contradict you. Any pro players who use this ability can substantiate this? THis is crazy.. how can a "corrosive cloud" increase damage? That makes zero sense.

I can't confirm this myself - but i guess the thinking on the corrosive cloud is that it only eats away armour, leaving the unit vulnerable to attacks.

[thudo]

Well then why not target enemy squads with it? Thats what it says it does... It wears @ armour.. doesn't say anywhere it increases firepower? I'm confused.. [needs twinkie]

[dreddnott]

Yeah, Corrosion is basically a spot of castable negative cover, which increases damage received over the baseline values. Same effect as the Eldar platform's Brightlance or Pathfinder's target marker.

The idea is that since it eats away at the enemy's armor, it makes them more vulnerable to attack. If it actually dealt damage it would be redundant with the Soulstorm ability, and probably make Soul Essence powers a bit overpowered.

Edited by dreddnott, 21 March 2008 - 07:52 PM.

[thudo]

Ok so essentially its doing as it should onto enemies so no change is needed.

[Smokeskin]

I've been thinking, the old BOs and settings for tech speed and such, are they still used for the SS version? SS toned down tech somewhat, t1 much more important. The fast tech from DC doesn't work that well anymore.

[dreddnott]

Some races are having a lot of trouble keeping large numbers of troops on the field (Dark Eldar, Tau, even Orks) while others have no problem flooding their enemy with numbers (Necrons most obviously), despite floating ridiculous amounts of requisition, in Tier 1 and Tier 2. This includes reinforcement of existing squads in addition to the creation of new ones (which it can't do sometimes because of squad cap limits). I'll run down specifics if you want.

[thudo]

I'm having a real hard time that Orks are having a problem fielding enough troops when I cannot defeat em since SS showed up. Damn did these guys get a boost or what?

Btw, for next beta build #3.. alot of good sh*t went in.

[dreddnott]

Glad to hear about Beta 3. I'll try to get some specifics on certain races not spending their req to replace lost troops.

[LarkinVB]

There is a big bug which reduces eldars current req/power to 0 while harly is using kiss of death. Perhaps we shouldn't use this ability.

[troubadour]

@Thudo :
Reg the cloud, the problem is not to cast it or not,,the problem is to cast it attack and attack cloud target. For instance with beta 2, DE AI cast it but does not attack the cloud target so the cloud effect is lost.
I had a game as SM vs DE AI on Fallen City, and i saw 3 times a cloud upon my marines but their health was not decreasing that made me wonder about the cloud

[LarkinVB]

DE (and I guees SB) tactics coding is a bit strange.

Exampl. Archon :

There is a table definition at top

DarkEldarArchon = {}

but the abilities are not table elements as they used to be for other races :

-- Init ability ID's
	if (Archon_vitae == nil) then
		Archon_vitae = cpu_manager.stats:GetAbilityID( "dark_eldar_animus_vitae" )
	end

Edited by LarkinVB, 22 March 2008 - 10:44 AM.

[Smokeskin]

Match: 1v1
Factions: SoB (Smokeskin) vs DE
Game Modes Used: Standard
Map: Shrine of Excellion
A.I Difficulty: Harder
Resources Rate: Normal
Resources Sharing: Off
Winner: AI

Comments:
I don't harass or push it to see what it does late game.

Doesn't float: Even with over +200 req income, it doesn't seem to float, that's good.

Gathering: It seemed to work quite well, nicely coordinated attacks in the later game.

Soul abilities: Used them well from what I saw.

Dark Foundry/Hall of Blood: I think the DE should either go Hall of Blood or Dark Foundry in t1, not both. They're too expensive and you don't gain much by having both. I think you're already on top of this with the new BOs though.

Haemonculus Lab: This seem to be built in t2 first, for some builds it does good in t1 (it adds leaders, grenades etc.). Also in the new BOs already too I think.

Researches too much: It's not just a little bit too much, it's a lot. It is constantly researching 1 or 2 things. It is a HUGE resource drain, and it leaves it very weak. It really, really needs to research less. It did 22 researches, that's 1000s of req/power, if some of that was put into units instead it would've been overwhelmingly powerful.

Attached Files

•  2P_SHRINE_OF_EXCELLION.2008_03_22.11_06_08.zip   142.63KB   5 downloads

Edited by Smokeskin, 22 March 2008 - 12:42 PM.

[LarkinVB]

Researches too much: It's not just a little bit too much, it's a lot. It is constantly researching 1 or 2 things. It is a HUGE resource drain, and it leaves it very weak. It really, really needs to research less.

I'm happy that a good player is now providing evidence for this.

[Smokeskin]

I can see the problem with researches though. You can't have it not research anything either. Perhaps researches should be made progressively less likely to be carried out with each research done, or it can only spend a certain percentage of its resources on them, or something similar.

I think the AI plays very well as such, but it is currently suffering from what is essentially a bad build order. I never really studied it in DC, but in DC fast tech was very good - even if it wasn't optimal back then, it was at least pretty good. I certainly think the Advanced AI played better in DC, and I think the main culprit is that the BOs or whatever controls the AIs behavior in this regard, haven't been adapted to SS yet, where tech is slower and costs more.

I posted an idea for how to control it by providing mid/late game strategies to the AI here http://forums.revora...showtopic=59117. If it is easy to do, it might be for the beta, but otherwise it's more of a long term proposal, I'm sure the Advanced AI could leave the beta without such a feature.

Edited by Smokeskin, 22 March 2008 - 12:15 PM.

[Smokeskin]

Match: 1v1
Factions: SoB (Smokeskin) vs Ork
Game Modes Used: Standard
Map: Blood River
A.I Difficulty: Harder
Resources Rate: Normal
Resources Sharing: Off
Winner: AI

Comments:
I stick to my half of the map and weather several of its attacks, at t4 I attack (somewhat mindlessly), and I lose my army. I don't know orks well, but I think it plays fine, and doesn't float (this was reported by someone earlier). Overall there was some nice gathered attacks, and it used nukes quite well. Still the same playstyle though, too little massing too much research imo.

Attached Files

•  2P_BLOOD_RIVER.2008_03_22.14_07_38.zip   177.99KB   2 downloads

[thudo]

Reg the cloud, the problem is not to cast it or not,,the problem is to cast it attack and attack cloud target. For instance with beta 2, DE AI cast it but does not attack the cloud target so the cloud effect is lost. I had a game as SM vs DE AI on Fallen City, and i saw 3 times a cloud upon my marines but their health was not decreasing that made me wonder about the cloud

Sorry d00d, we cannot tell the AI to cast something then script the AI to do something with units on that affected target.. ain't happening.. The HQ Ability will still be used by the AI because the AI doesn't suffer from soul loses when HQ abilities are used so why remove it? We'll let either luck or a human ally work this out for the AI.

There is a big bug which reduces eldars current req/power to 0 while harly is using kiss of death. Perhaps we shouldn't use this ability.

Whooaa what? Does that happen to a regular player? Never heard that one.. how the hell does a unit ability cause the faction's economy to crash? Anyone substantiate this?

Researches too much: It's not just a little bit too much, it's a lot. It is constantly researching 1 or 2 things. It is a HUGE resource drain, and it leaves it very weak. It really, really needs to research less. It did 22 researches, that's 1000s of req/power, if some of that was put into units instead it would've been overwhelmingly powerful.

That won't be a problem in our current build.

DE (and I guees SB) tactics coding is a bit strange.

Exampl. Archon :

There is a table definition at top
CODE
DarkEldarArchon = {}


but the abilities are not table elements as they used to be for other races :
CODE
-- Init ability ID's
if (Archon_vitae == nil) then
Archon_vitae = cpu_manager.stats:GetAbilityID( "dark_eldar_animus_vitae" )
end

I find this odd you'd point this out: why would the actual ability need the "DarkEldarArchon = {}" ? Should it? I don't think so but I'll rename them back.

[LarkinVB]

I find this odd you'd point this out: why would the actual ability need the "DarkEldarArchon = {}" ? Should it? I don't think so but I'll rename them back.

Yes, it should. It is good coding to be consistant. Declare empty global table, add ability elements and use them as such. Standard since beginning of DoW tactic files. You don't need DarkEldarArchon = {} if you won't use it.

The harly bug is discussed on dowsanctuary and players have suffered it.

[Smokeskin]

Match: 1v1
Factions: SoB (Smokeskin) vs SoB
Game Modes Used: Standard
Map: Shrine of Excellion
A.I Difficulty: HInsane
Resources Rate: Normal
Resources Sharing: Off
Winner: AI

Comments:
A great battle I could've played better, I float a bit and am not aggressive enough, and furthermore the AI completely bowls me over with Exorcists in the late game, disrupting my infantry when fighting and bombarding my base when not.

Capper doesn't move: At 1:50, an enemy missionary just continues to cap while my sisters gun it down.

Stuck squad: At 21:50, an enemy squad seems to be trying to continually recap the already captured CP.

Attached Files

•  2P_SHRINE_OF_EXCELLION.2008_03_22.15_30_21.zip   211.91KB   2 downloads

[thudo]

@Larkin - Fixed!

As for the Harlies' Kiss'o'Death bug.. wow.. never heard of that one.. so yer telling me if a player uses that Harlies' ability the whole faction's economy immediately drops to 0/0 ?

[Smokeskin]

Missionary Faith abilities: I'm not 100% sure, but I've never seen him use his abilities when attached to a squad?