118 replies to this topic

[Clubby]

At risk of sounding blasphemous, WTBD about canon?

[Kaleb Graff]

Canon is a good goal, but who defines canon? There have been other artillery pieces in video games, and are they more canon then the EAW artillery? The original MPTL from force commander is a good example. Also, I would count the hailfire droid as artillery.

[TheEmpire]

reason that artillery should be weak against vehicles is simple. In the real world, most artillery shoots fragmentation shells.

The rebel artillery shoots a proton torphdo! But I think for balance the artillery should not be as acurrate.

[Kaleb Graff]

Still, said proton torpedoes would be optimized for anti-infantry use, with a large blast radius, but rather low damage.

[anakinskysolo]

Come on! A couple of proton torpedoes is enough to destroy an entire AT-AT. A proton torpedo has nothing to do with what the rebel artillery fires. The same with the SPHA-T, they fire a turbolaser that arcs! And Clubby, please a little more respect. This whole mod has the objective of making the game more canon, to make us feel that we are really commanding STAR WARS units. The original game doesn't deserve to be called SW, Empire at War, it should be just Empire at War. It doesn't feel like SW. If you just like to play a lot of ships just go and play Z3R0X mod or the Absolute Enhancement mod or whatever, which I find are just making the game more non-star wars.

[Kaleb Graff]

Why the double post? Still, I agree with you that the "proton torpedoes" are not the same torps as an X-wing fires.

[anakinskysolo]

Sorry, that was unintentional.

[Clubby]

Come on! A couple of proton torpedoes is enough to destroy an entire AT-AT. A proton torpedo has nothing to do with what the rebel artillery fires. The same with the SPHA-T, they fire a turbolaser that arcs! And Clubby, please a little more respect. This whole mod has the objective of making the game more canon, to make us feel that we are really commanding STAR WARS units. The original game doesn't deserve to be called SW, Empire at War, it should be just Empire at War. It doesn't feel like SW. If you just like to play a lot of ships just go and play Z3R0X mod or the Absolute Enhancement mod or whatever, which I find are just making the game more non-star wars.

I thought that might happen, and please understand that disrespect is not meant. I don't mean to say we could just make it up as we go, but many vehicles were added to cover parts of combat that were lacking, and there is also the problem that it is more difficult to decide just what IS canon, so that also becomes a problem.

[A1Dasdfsdkli4r2]

The reason that artillery should be weak against vehicles is simple. In the real world, most artillery shoots fragmentation shells. These are excellent against infantry, but are not effective against armored vehicles. Thus, the change. The damage should probably be reduced overall, too. Still, it needs to stay in the game, but with an effective countermeasure unit. And I agree with Kacen that turbolaser artillery makes no sense. A turbolaser will travel in a straight line.

not necessarily. Most artillery nowadays has several Antitank rounds; also since Art is used in large groups; can devestate a tank company; but only if they know EXACtY WHERE tHEY ARE. I think art accuarcy should be seriously less accurate; have like 10 in a squad (or have less Pop cap values; because they're pointless in small #) also armor should be seriously downgraded so a speeder bike can pop it a couple times and Poof.

[A1Dasdfsdkli4r2]

I think PR should eliminate every non-canon EAW vehicle and add only those which appear in the movies and EU. The artillery in EAW is obviously non-canon. Please don't ask why and figure it for yourselves.

well that would be an engine problem most likely.

[Sausage]

Regardless of what your position is one must admit that ground combat is fairly bland and could hardly be called Star Warsy. It's just too tiny and has performance issues even with what it can do.

Other companies have paved the way in terms of epic scale combat like Total War and can pull it off with amazing performance. LucasArts should buy a license for that engine and go to work. The end result could be insanely spectacular. Combine that with Sins of a Solar Empire engine and you can call it a day. You just built the ultimate Star Wars game.

[Clubby]

Regardless of what your position is one must admit that ground combat is fairly bland and could hardly be called Star Warsy. It's just too tiny and has performance issues even with what it can do.

Other companies have paved the way in terms of epic scale combat like Total War and can pull it off with amazing performance. LucasArts should buy a license for that engine and go to work. The end result could be insanely spectacular. Combine that with Sins of a Solar Empire engine and you can call it a day. You just built the ultimate Star Wars game.

Bland as in not enough units can be on at the same time?

[Kaleb Graff]

The point about artillery being able to do anti-vehcile missions is true. However, this is somthing I suggested earler in using the weapon switch ability to have varied anti-infantry and anti-vehicle missions. The fact is, we will have to make a decision and take a vehicle, likely from a videogame, for artillery. It would be a mistake to eluminate it entirely, but it really should have a weaker hull, to make it easier to destroy if attacked. It should be a true high-value target, powerful, but vulnerable. Thus, it would be balanced, and could be taken out by a rapid strike from light vehicles.

[Sausage]

Regardless of what your position is one must admit that ground combat is fairly bland and could hardly be called Star Warsy. It's just too tiny and has performance issues even with what it can do.

Other companies have paved the way in terms of epic scale combat like Total War and can pull it off with amazing performance. LucasArts should buy a license for that engine and go to work. The end result could be insanely spectacular. Combine that with Sins of a Solar Empire engine and you can call it a day. You just built the ultimate Star Wars game.

Bland as in not enough units can be on at the same time?

Yes and No. Overall it's just bland. Until you have experienced a game like Medieval Total War II you haven't experienced true ground combat.

[Kalo Shin]

This has got to be the worst case of "WAAAH" i've seen in awhile.

Am i the only one that doesn't have problems with these things...? they're not THAT powerful.

For all of you guys saying remove them : Why? By all means make them harder to produce/use/research but removing them pretty much removes the only thing you have to actually worry about in Land Battles.

Edited by Kalo Shin, 01 April 2008 - 07:44 PM.

[Kaleb Graff]

This has got to be the worst case of "WAAAH" i've seen in awhile.

Am i the only one that doesn't have problems with these things...? they're not THAT powerful.

For all of you guys saying remove them : Why? By all means make them harder to produce/use/research but removing them pretty much removes the only thing you have to actually worry about in Land Battles.

I agree completely. They are very effective, and make the rebels competitive in land battles. I don't intend to attack Sausage, but what he has said makes me think that he was hit hard by these in the past, and thus doesn't like them.

[TheEmpire]

Artillery is a Love/Hate thing. When they are on your side you like them but when they are on the other side you hate them. Also Artillery is great for defeating great assults when you are the defender. But they were annoying in vanilla. Not bad but annoying.

[anakinskysolo]

Regardless of what your position is one must admit that ground combat is fairly bland and could hardly be called Star Warsy. It's just too tiny and has performance issues even with what it can do.

Exactly, that's what I meant.

Other companies have paved the way in terms of epic scale combat like Total War and can pull it off with amazing performance. LucasArts should buy a license for that engine and go to work. The end result could be insanely spectacular. Combine that with Sins of a Solar Empire engine and you can call it a day. You just built the ultimate Star Wars game.

Well, I don't know if Lucasarts finds it plausible. I think that the real brain behind EAW was Petroglyph, so Lucasarts is not in it or in the other strategy games so much and just leave them to the developers. I don't know if they are aware of how the game really is. They described a general idea to Petroglyph, and they worried about how to do the game.

[keraunos]

I wouldn't be so hasty in calling it uncannon. You have ignored any sorce outside the movies, which have special circiumstances. Genosis is the only real full-scale land battle, and we saw artillery there. On Hoth, the imps needed to move quickly, so the artillery would have been left behind. On Endor, they were not expecting an attack they needed artillery to defeat. On Utapau, the sinkhole would have suverely limited the usefulness of artillery.

That's my point. Most of the battles has special circumstances - becouse most battles were fought "on the move". Ok, you can have artillery in prolonged conflict (some battles of Clone Wars) but then you should be able to bring some more reinforcements. So we talk about skirmish here...

Lastly, you would say that modern infantry is obsolete because of artillery. This is obviously false, and I can't think of a reason to remove artillery. One solution is to produce a unit that shoots down artillery shells in flight. This is not canon, but very much a possibility. This would serve as an effective countermeasure. Lastly, artillery would be vulnerable to other artillery.

Nope, modern infantry is not obsolete, but:
1)It doesn't move in big blobby squads (well, at least not 2/3 squads per 2/3 artillery units, which is the case now).
2)Problem is not firepower, but means to find enemy. EaW artillery doesn't have this problem.
3)Each shell hits, killing entire squads. If not, second or third will do.
4)Maps are small, so hidding from artillery is rarely an issue. Not mentioning it's impossible for infantry to hide in - say - forrest.
5)Artillery IRL is countered by:
a)airforce - I don't have to say how sophisticated is EaW airforce
b)own artillery
IRL everyone has some of one of the other. In game: you didn't produce it - you're screwed.

Also, I would count the hailfire droid as artillery.

I wouldn't - but it (rather, something similar and more canonical) could serve as a good base for replacing unit. Something with medium range rockets, highly mobile and fragile

This has got to be the worst case of "WAAAH" i've seen in awhile.
Am i the only one that doesn't have problems with these things...? they're not THAT powerful.
For all of you guys saying remove them : Why? By all means make them harder to produce/use/research but removing them pretty much removes the only thing you have to actually worry about in Land Battles.

They are that powerful - you contradict yourself by stating that they are "the only thing you have to actualy worry about in Land Battles". And no, making them harder to produce/use/research will simply cripple AI further or give player unfair advantage - and I'd like to evade both. I don't want to see any more battles: my army vs artillery. I'd rather see AI with more balanced army of actual SW units.


I also fully agree with Anakin - we're talking about canon here. Artillery screws it completely, as you finish not with AT-STs, Scout Troopers and Stormtroopers, but rather AT-AT+artillery+Lancet combos. Why to produce cheaper units if they'll die instantly confronted with powerful ones? Land combat is not a SW universe anymore, just another (not very good) RTS.

[Sausage]

Some call it whining, others call it reasonable. In the end it's all opinion, however canon is not opinion and you aren't waging war on the ground on the scale of Episode II.

I would be the first to want to see artillery given a proper treatment and fully operational when you can fight on the scale where it would actually be used and made sense to use.

This isn't even a near miss in terms of canon representation of Star Wars ground combat. Developers can do much better and technology exists to do so. While I think everyone can welcome EAW's ground combat as a step in the right direction it is just that. A step.

Could you enhance it to make the best of what you got? Sure you could build massive maps, drop the fog of war and make realistic artillery that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, let alone home in on a single trooper. That's canon. This isn't.

I have nothing further to add. All my points have been covered by both myself and others very well.