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Concerning Uruk-Hais


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#21 Thorin

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 10:13 PM

Oh I see, you've had experience fighting with swords, shields and axes have you? In the heat of battle one of the last things you think of is, "I'm fighting for my people."


That's the first thing you think of. The thoughts of a dying person go to their family. They're fighting for their lives and for their family's lives and for their homes. That's a far bigger motivator than anything else. The Orcs, who are just as evil and ferocious as their larger cousins, disperse and are slaughtered when their master's will leaves them. The Men of the West and of Rohan continue without the ferocity and without the fear of their master. And besides that, the fact men are larger, stronger, have better armour and weapons, are more experienced, are more healthy and fit, have better training and are more skillfull, and have better leaders, would tend to suggest men are better all round.

#22 Elen Naro

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 11:46 PM

If not their family, they will in each case realise that if they do not win, they will probably die at the hands of the enemy at some point. Soldiers who are fighting for their lives do much better than soldiers fighting for pay/fun. History has shown that time and again.
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#23 Foe-of-the-Nine

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 03:28 PM

you're basing the entire skill/strenght of Uruks on one quote of the books... Gimli saying that they looked a bit large for him... so what...
1) Gimli had never actually fought a Dunlending
2) The "Fighting Uruk-Hai" do not waver even when the Dunlendings do... read the whole battle...


Gimli feared to fight a Dunlending, and not to fight an Uruk. I have read the whole battle, thanks, several times. Until there is an equally substantive quote showing another view, that quote is all you're going to get comparing Uruk-hai with Men. Your 'hunches', I'm afraid, and the feeling you get that there is 'fear' surrounding Uruk-hai just doesn't cut it in Tolkien's world, I'm afraid.

I would need a substantially more convincing quote before I would side with you... the feelings I have always gotten from reading Tolkiens works were that Uruks were an elite breed feared by men... and yes I've read the Hobbit, LoTRs, the Silmarillion, and Children of Hurin... and if we look historically at Uruks in general we wills see that they won many battles throughout the history of middle-earth:


Gimli's quote is more substantive than your 'feelings' - sorry. Oh, and as you started it, I've read the lot, includine all 12 editions of HoME, Unfinished Tales and the Letters of JRRT. Not that that makes any difference or anyone particular cares.

Appendix A:

quote: In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.

though not explicitly stated... the purpose or if you will "spirit" of what he's writing is that the Uruks were a big deal capable of doing massive damage to the armies of men... and anyone who knows history of Middle-earth knows that the taking of Osgiliath was not a light undertaking... on the contrary... it was a fortress comparable if not greater than Minas Anor (later Minas Tirith)


More of your feelings... You will find similar references to the Haradrim or Dunlendings about how they were scary yadda yadda. I know a great deal about Middle-earth, and as Osgiliath was not a fortification but a large city, it was had no where near the standing of Minas Anor. Anor was built as an actual fort, Osgiliath as a larger city. While Osgiliath was probably more grand, it was certainly not a fortress comparable with Minas Anor. And Osgiliath has been taken and ruined so many times I've lost count, so you implying it was 'especially' hard to take should be taken with a pinch of salt.


even their name "Uruk" or "Uruk-hai" is derived from the root-term, uruki, which (originally) referred to 'terrors' of diverse kind.


As I said before, ffs, direct translations is different to their common usage. However, as you're going into this, Uruk is simply black speech for Orc. Wikipedia-ing much?

Its plain to me that Uruks represent a formidable enemy equal or greater than men... and note that every time it says orcs at helms deep its not referring exclusively to Uruks... until I can find a more convincing reference than Gimli casually saying that he decided to leave the Dundlendings to the others... every reference I can find to Uruks has an air of dread for their ferocity about it...


A formidable enemy? Yes. Greater than men? No. Not until there is some comparison between them that outweighs Gimli's comparison and is more substantive than your 'feelings'.

Orcs also had a far lesser lifespan than men, and had far worse living conditions, as well as far worse training and armour. To say even that Uruks are comparable with Men is absurd based on feelings.


ack... don't get me started... Ok I still totally disagree with you but argument is futile since we both already have drawn our conclusions... Nertea appears to have already decided this one so I see no point in pursuing it...
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#24 Thorin

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 03:43 PM

I wasn't arguing about the game style Uruk-hai, or even the what they're like in the movies (though they are grossly overestimated in that also). I was merely saying what is stated in the lore and what conclusions we must draw from that - as it was in the book.

#25 mike_

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 10:43 PM

Personally I picture the Uruks of Isengard starting out as the leather-donned "Scouts" of FotR, and being upgraded with Heavy Armour (maybe another upgrade - superior training? - for the stat increase.
This way you have to start out with the book-ish, relatively "weak" Uruks, and can eventually have them become the movie "supersoldier-Hai."
A neat detail might be to have the tooltip change from "Isengard Uruk Horde" to "Isengard Uruk-Hai Horde" upon purchasing the "superior training" upgrade. If that's possible, of course.
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Edited by elfhelm.., 25 April 2008 - 10:44 PM.


#26 Thorin

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 10:45 PM

Superior training seems to have very little basis, when, as I said, men are larger, stronger, have better armour and weapons, are more experienced, are more healthy and fit, have better training and are more skillfull, and have better leaders.

#27 mike_

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 10:52 PM

Well...if you look in the movies, it shows that the Uruk-hai of Isengard are quite capable of marching in an orderly column (three side by side, in fact) when the Rohirrim manage to...well...form up in a wedge.
And, to be honest, I think that the mass-produced armour and gear of war of the Uruk-hai is of higher quality than the rusted blades and patched maile of the Rohirrim.
Guess you can see who I was rooting for at Helm's Deep :)
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#28 Thorin

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 10:55 PM

And, to be honest, I think that the mass-produced armour and gear of war of the Uruk-hai is of higher quality than the rusted blades and patched maile of the Rohirrim.


You're telling me that generic Orc armour is better than the armour from the smithies of Gondor? Because it's not. Definitely absolutely not. Even if Rohan made some of their own armour it would, by definition, be better than Orc armour - they made it for numbers, not for quality. Inevitably there is a shortfall in quality.

Well...if you look in the movies, it shows that the Uruk-hai of Isengard are quite capable of marching in an orderly column (three side by side, in fact) when the Rohirrim manage to...well...form up in a wedge.


They have superior training because they can get in formation? So that's what the Numenoreans and Eldar have been doing wrong all these years :)

Edited by Thorin, 25 April 2008 - 10:56 PM.


#29 mike_

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 11:05 PM

We're not talking about Orcs, though. And of course not.
And for superior training...yes. While an Elf or Man may be able to best an Uruk in individual combat, en masse they would fare much worse - not taking into account the Battle of the Pelennor :) and before you pull the "canonicity" argument on me - again - I'll explain; the conditions just favored the Rohirrim there. They were able to attack the Orcs' rear, with superior troops, in the dawn (which weakens Orcs), and the army of Mordor was already distracted by the siege of Gondor's capital.
So if the two forces had been on even ground, I feel the Rohirrim "will not break the lines of Mordor", so to speak.
Then again...we're not talking Orcs, are we? :)
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#30 Thorin

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 11:18 PM

We're not talking about Orcs, though. And of course not.


Uruks didn't forge their own armour, and you've skipped around my point. Uruk-hai armour (which is made by orcs thus orc armour) is not better than Gondorian armour.

And for superior training...yes.


No they don't. Uruks aren't as experienced, healthy, or fit.

While an Elf or Man may be able to best an Uruk in individual combat, en masse they would fare much worse


Obviously if one weaker (man for man) force vastly outnumbers another they would clearly win. But not if the numbers were the same.

- not taking into account the Battle of the Pelennor :) and before you pull the "canonicity" argument on me - again - I'll explain; the conditions just favored the Rohirrim there. They were able to attack the Orcs' rear, with superior troops, in the dawn (which weakens Orcs), and the army of Mordor was already distracted by the siege of Gondor's capital.


The dawn was only symbolic, it did very little to the Orcs - Sauron's darkness still lingered above. I don't even know what you're trying to argue here, unless it's still that Orcs have superior training, when they categorically don't, as shown countless times throughout Tolkien's entire works.

So if the two forces had been on even ground, I feel the Rohirrim "will not break the lines of Mordor", so to speak.


Again... If one force vastly outnumbered the other it makes it unbalanced. Regardless, it was reasonably even. You say Orcs were at a disadvantage, but also neglected to talk about how the Rohirrim had been galloping for about 3 days straight.have better armour/weapons.

Orcs are inferior to Men in nearly all ways apart from numbers. They don't have better training, and they without doubt don't have better armour

10,000 Uruk-hai, 'Orc-Men' and Dunlendings were slaughtered at Helms Deep by just 3000 Men - many of whom were too old or young.

Comparing large scale Orc/Uruk-hai tactics/formations en-masse with Men's isn't futile. It just shows that Men are better, as shown that they have won virtually all of the major engagements.

#31 mike_

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 11:27 PM

With the exception of Osgiliath, the Fords of Isen, the Gladden Fields, and several other engagements (such as Black Uruks of Mordor forcing out the folk of Ithilien earlier in the Third Age).
I agree that Orcs are inferior to Men in practically every way - with the exception of numbers, in which they would - and should - obviously capitalize on.
I concede about the reference to the rising dawn, you are correct that Sauron's darkness lingered above.
Lastly...man for man, Orcs cannot compare to the skill of Men. However, they rarely equalize in numbers - it's almost always at least three-to-one odds in the Orcs' favour.
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#32 Thorin

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 11:54 PM

With the exception of Osgiliath, the Fords of Isen, the Gladden Fields, and several other engagements (such as Black Uruks of Mordor forcing out the folk of Ithilien earlier in the Third Age).


The ultimate conclusion of the end of each of those wars were the Orc's loss. Osgiliath was retaken. Isengard was destroyed. The Orcs from the Gladden Fields were killed by the Northmen. Henneth Anun never fell.

Lastly...man for man, Orcs cannot compare to the skill of Men. However, they rarely equalize in numbers - it's almost always at least three-to-one odds in the Orcs' favour.
Cheers,
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Even taking into the differential of the gap (man on man) between Orc and Man, they don't have three to one. 10,000 of Saruman's servants could defeat 2000 of Rohan's, but not a further 1000. 3000 Men beat 10,000 Orcs (et al) - clearly the odds were 3 to 1 for the Men, there. And at the Pelennor - as I hope you've read my analysis of the numbers in the other thread - you'll see that ultimately, as the Orcs were defeated, they can't have 3 to 1 odds in their favour. They out numbered them - enough to beat them without Rohan (which admittedly was meant to be taken out at Druedain Forest, so I suppose that was taken account of) and without the reinforcements on the ships (which I worked out as about 4000 men). The Orcs (both at the Druedain and Pelennor) could defeat Rohan's 6000 and Gondor's 8000(ish) in Minas Tirith, but a further 4000(ish) on the ships made the difference - by a long way, the Men still had at least half (and probably more) of their original number.

Basically, considering that the Orcs did ultimately lose most battles, the odds can't have been that much in their favour if a relatively few number of reinforcements can seriously and significantly put the odds in the Men's favour.

You could substitute Orc with Uruk-hai here, they are just bigger and stronger than normal Orcs, but still no match in either of those attributes to Men, and probably not much better than Orcs in the other attributes - intelligence, training, tactics, health.

#33 Foe-of-the-Nine

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 03:59 AM

ok my vote is that Uruks be about 3/4's as good as Rohirrim infantry... but faster (I CAN prove that they were faster than even Aragorn Legolas and Gimli from the books)... in this way they'll be able to defeat them since they have about 3 times as many guys and IMO they should have more HPs...
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#34 Gaelicman15

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 04:48 AM

but faster (I CAN prove that they were faster than even Aragorn Legolas and Gimli from the books)...

Technically it was "some evil gives speed to these creatures" but yeah the Uruks were tireless.

You're telling me that generic Orc armour is better than the armour from the smithies of Gondor?

It wasn't the smithies of Gondor, elfhelm said ROHAN!! Besides Saruman was a student of Aule and therefore a cunning metallurgist, I'm sure he instructed his orcs how to make proper armour.

No they don't. Uruks aren't as experienced, healthy, or fit.

No but they are tireless (read the book before you disagree with that) and if they were unhealthy or susceptible to illness then they would die from their living conditions and food.

The dawn was only symbolic, it did very little to the Orcs

True, except for making them weaker and burning their skin (that's what the big bright thing in the sky does to orcs)

Osgiliath was retaken.

Only the west side of Osgiliath, the orcs still had the east side.

Basically, considering that the Orcs did ultimately lose most battles, the odds can't have been that much in their favour if a relatively few number of reinforcements can seriously and significantly put the odds in the Men's favour.


If that were true the Free Peoples wouldn't be too concerned about having to destroy the Ring, they could have just hidden it away, but no they had to destroy it because whether Sauron got the Ring back or not he was going to win through numbers and LARGE armies, everyone knew this, hence the idea to destroy the Ring.

and probably not much better than Orcs in the other attributes - intelligence, training, tactics, health.

Why do you keep mentioning health?
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#35 Olorin

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 06:33 AM

Gimli's quote is more substantive than your 'feelings' - sorry. Oh, and as you started it, I've read the lot, includine all 12 editions of HoME, Unfinished Tales and the Letters of JRRT. Not that that makes any difference or anyone particular cares.

You're absolutely right, it doesn't make any difference, and I'm pretty sure no one in particular cares. Please do not come out and start comparing your Tolkien-lore to other people's, only because it is very annoying and makes you look bad. I do respect that you know so much about Middle-earth, but I'm just saying this for future reference; a lot of people have started arguments concerning these issues and most of them ended up being very frustrating and irritating for people who actually want to contribute something a little more substantial to the topic. These forums aren't a place to compare your knowledge to others people's. :)

OK, enough with being forum police, here's my view of the Uruks:

Personally, (and I know this will cause a lot of commotion, but it's an opinion), I would like to see Isengard as it was protrayed in the vanilla game and in the movies: as an all-round elite faction. Don't get me wrond, I'm usually all for the books vs. the films, but I say this purely because its mini-factions (Dunland, Moria and Mount Gundabad) will (I assume) provide a lot of the cannon fodder, such as goblins from both Moria and Mount Gundabad (though knowing the team there will probably be a significant variation between these two), and raiding parties and shock troops from Dunland. Having said that, making Saruman's Uruks weaker like normal Orcs would not only throw the balance way out, it would take away what made Isengard special. In terms of health in the game (not armour), I would rank it so:

1. Dwarves
2. Uruk-Hai
3. Elves
4. Men
5. Orcs of all kinds

Then, in terms of armour (going by what I know and what has been mentioned):

1. Dwarves/heavily armoured Elves as in Helm's Deep (the latter being a big maybe)
2. Men of Gondor
3. Men of Dale and Rohan
4. Haradrim and Forest Elves (i.e. all those who sacrifice better defence for superior stealth)
5. Orcs and Uruks

So far throughout this topic, a lot of people mentioned that the Dunlendings were more powerful than the Uruk-hai, so maybe make the Dunlendings the elite-most faction of Isengard, while perhaps making the Isengard main-faction a tiny bit little less elite. This would make them a very valuable mid- to late-game force for Isengard. Those are my thoughts, though I'm basing my thoughts on Dunland on what's been said so far.
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#36 Thorin

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 11:04 AM

Technically it was "some evil gives speed to these creatures" but yeah the Uruks were tireless.


a) They were not faster than the 3 hunters - the Uruks had the headstart in the first place, and the hunters were catching them, just not at a good enough rate
b) It was Saruman's will which not only sped up the Uruks, but slowed down the hunters, and yet the hunters still were catching them. Uruks without Saruman's will were not tireless.

It wasn't the smithies of Gondor, elfhelm said ROHAN!! Besides Saruman was a student of Aule and therefore a cunning metallurgist, I'm sure he instructed his orcs how to make proper armour.


Jesus Christ, Rohan gets it's armour from Gondor! Just because you're a student of someone doesn't mean you have their attributes. There was no mention of Saruman been a good metallurgist.


No but they are tireless (read the book before you disagree with that) and if they were unhealthy or susceptible to illness then they would die from their living conditions and food.


I have read the books, a lot, thanks. Read above - they were not tireless. They wouldn't die - I didn't say they were specailly susceptible to illness, but they had squalid living conditions far worse than that of men. They also had a considerably lesser lifespan.

True, except for making them weaker and burning their skin (that's what the big bright thing in the sky does to orcs)


You didn't read the rest, purposefully or accidentally, that Sauron's darkness was still above.

Only the west side of Osgiliath, the orcs still had the east side.


Up until the end of the Pelennor, where the other side of the Osgiliath was retaken.

If that were true the Free Peoples wouldn't be too concerned about having to destroy the Ring, they could have just hidden it away, but no they had to destroy it because whether Sauron got the Ring back or not he was going to win through numbers and LARGE armies, everyone knew this, hence the idea to destroy the Ring.


Yes. He would. You have not even addressed any of my points in that - what are you saying?

Why do you keep mentioning health?


Because health is directly related to living conditions, and we know Orcs had increadibly poor living conditions.

#37 Thorin

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 11:16 AM

You're absolutely right, it doesn't make any difference, and I'm pretty sure no one in particular cares. Please do not come out and start comparing your Tolkien-lore to other people's, only because it is very annoying and makes you look bad. I do respect that you know so much about Middle-earth, but I'm just saying this for future reference; a lot of people have started arguments concerning these issues and most of them ended up being very frustrating and irritating for people who actually want to contribute something a little more substantial to the topic. These forums aren't a place to compare your knowledge to others people's. :)


Why would you even bring that up from back then? It has no relevance as I said at the time. You have neglected to quote the other person who wrote what they had read of JRRT's works first - clearly intending to 'get one over' on me - before I almost corrected them on what I had read. I wonder why you did that? I know the purpose of these forums, though.


Personally, (and I know this will cause a lot of commotion, but it's an opinion), I would like to see Isengard as it was protrayed in the vanilla game and in the movies: as an all-round elite faction. Don't get me wrond, I'm usually all for the books vs. the films, but I say this purely because its mini-factions (Dunland, Moria and Mount Gundabad) will (I assume) provide a lot of the cannon fodder, such as goblins from both Moria and Mount Gundabad (though knowing the team there will probably be a significant variation between these two), and raiding parties and shock troops from Dunland. Having said that, making Saruman's Uruks weaker like normal Orcs would not only throw the balance way out, it would take away what made Isengard special. In terms of health in the game (not armour), I would rank it so:

1. Dwarves
2. Uruk-Hai
3. Elves
4. Men
5. Orcs of all kinds


As you're basing it off the films I can't necessarily disagree, other than I'd go with the books over the films any day. In that case Uruks would be below Men, and Elves quite possible above Dwarves - there is quite some debate here, for Elves were said to be able to take more hardship before death, yet Dwarves were more hardy and resistant to fire, for example.

Then, in terms of armour (going by what I know and what has been mentioned):

1. Dwarves/heavily armoured Elves as in Helm's Deep (the latter being a big maybe)
2. Men of Gondor
3. Men of Dale and Rohan
4. Haradrim and Forest Elves (i.e. all those who sacrifice better defence for superior stealth)
5. Orcs and Uruks


There could be some debate among those top 3 - the Dwarves, for example, may make a lot of Dale's armour, and we know for certain that Gondor makes most of Rohan's. The Noldor were said to be the best, but that art may be lost. It's a bit arbitrary, but I'd agree that you'd have to separate them out with, for example, the Forest Elves having weaker armour than the Noldorin of Rivendell.

So far throughout this topic, a lot of people mentioned that the Dunlendings were more powerful than the Uruk-hai, so maybe make the Dunlendings the elite-most faction of Isengard, while perhaps making the Isengard main-faction a tiny bit little less elite. This would make them a very valuable mid- to late-game force for Isengard. Those are my thoughts, though I'm basing my thoughts on Dunland on what's been said so far.


Considering Dunlendings are men, and had, with little doubt, better living conditions than Uruks, as well as been more experienced. And besides that the only direct comparison is that Dunlendings were quite a bit bigger than Uruks, quite certainly suggesting they were also stronger.

#38 mike_

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 01:56 PM

How are you certain that Rohan's arms and armour are manufactured by Gondor? The only evidence I can find supporting that is in Lord of the Rings: Weapons and Warfare. And the book as a whole takes movie events as fact.
And as for the Dunlendings...in the Two Towers, it says that they were truly spurred to war with Rohan due to being forced out of their old lands (present-day Rohan) and forced into "slag-hills" west of the Isen. That doesn't suggest the best living conditions, IMO.
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#39 Thorin

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 02:48 PM

As an aside, to whoever was saying that Uruks are better because they are constantly said to be fierce (etc), I found this enlightening quote which says similar about the Dunlendings, and even more so about the Rohirrim:
"[The Rohirrim made a shieldwall...] Then, since the Orcs were of less avail in such fighting because of their stature, fierce companies of the Dunlendish hillmen were thrown against it. But for all their hatred the Dunlendings were still afraid of the Rohirrim if they met face to face, and they were also less skilled in warfare and less well armed. The shieldwall still held."
The orcs spoken here also include Uruk-hai - neither Uruk nor Orc could defeat the Rohirrim, so they tried the 'better' Dunlendings, and even they failed. Unfinished Tales, The Battles of the Fords of Isen.

They were forced out of the quite good and fertile lands of Rohan into somewhere not as good. Still considerably better than Orc living conditions - their 'foul meats', orc waters...

Definitely not in weapons and warfare. In Unfinished Tales again, Notes [10] of The Battles of the Fords of Isen;
"They [Dunlendings] were without body-armour, having only among them a few hauberks gained by theft or in loot [they also had large shields, though]. The Rohirrim had the advantage in being supplied by the metal-workers of Gondor. In Isengard as yet only the heavy and clumsy mail of the Orcs was made, by them for their own uses."

Edited by Thorin, 26 April 2008 - 03:01 PM.


#40 Bard

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 02:57 PM

On a side note, I don't think the Dunlendings should be anymore of an "elite" mini-faction than the Isengard core faction (if by 'elite' you mean better than Isengard's, Moria's and Gundabad's units in every respect):

In the books, the Dunlendings were usually portrayed as a mob during wartime. A hardy, fierce, vengeful, easily roused and opportunistic people, but as a fighting force were usually poorly armed, poorly trained, unused to the battlefield and above all, superstitious and fearful of their percieved foes, which has done wonders in sapping their morale.

They have had a history of only attacking their enemies at their weakest and most vulnerable (which is most often a larger invasion from another force or natural disaster, events that are not begun by the Dunlendings) and minor engagements with their enemies, generally small-scale raids on herds and unpressed attacks on the Westmark garrisons of the Isen. They have never been found to engage their enemies directly in large-scale battles (for obvious reasons) unless supplemented with other more "organised/respecful" forces (Isengarders, Corsairs, Easterlings, etc), heavily outnumber their enemies and know (or think) they will be the victors, or by accident (an unfortunate encounter with King Deor on an expedition to Isengard). Even the taking over of the Ring of Isengard was accomplished not by siege, but by assimilation.

"All Isengard must be emptied; and Saruman has armed the wild-hillmen and herd-folk of Dunland beyond the rivers, and these also he loosed upon us."
- The Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers, Book Three, Chapter VII, Helm's Deep.

"They were without body-armour, having only among them a few hauberks gained by theft and in loot. The Rohirrim had the advantage of in being supplied by the metal-workers of Gondor. In Isengard as yet only the heavy and clumsy mail of the Orcs was made, by them for their own uses. [Author's note.]"
-Unfinished Tales, Part III: The Third Age, The Battles of the Fords of Isen

(Already the Dunlendings don't seem much like a reliable, seasoned fighting force here, on the contrary, they seem to be more of an angry plundering rabble. Isengard only arms them and doesn't even see fit to supply the Dunlendings with armour. While I don't doubt that certain Dunlendings (the chieftains, their household and their guards for instance), might have possessed their own weapons and armour (perhaps some of which might've even been made by Durin's Folk during their stay in Dunland before they moved to the Ered Luin, and this is stretching it as that was more than 300 years ago and I doubt the Dunlendings were instructed in proper metal maintenance or any of the Dwarves stay there) and that maybe the Isengard weaponry was of far better quality than anything they had, but one would think that a people experienced in war would have their own equipment for such times.)

"But the shieldwall held. Then, since the Orcs were of less avail in such fighting because of their stature, fierce companies of the Dunlendish hillmen were thrown against it. But for all their hatred the Dunlendings were still afraid of the Rohirrim if they met face to face, and they were also less skilled in warfare and less well armed. The shieldwall still held."
- Unfinished Tales, Part III: The Third Age, The Battles of the Fords of Isen
(Ah, so they were brought in to deal with the Rohirrim shieldwall simply because they were bigger than the Orcs, possibly able to outreach the orcs and overpower the shieldwall, not because of any particular fighting skill, which they didn't have much of anyway. They even feared direct confrontation with their most hated enemy.)

Even Saruman's Agents (or Sharky's Men), who were Dunlendings or of Dunlendish origin (with a few presumed "half-orcs"), and accorded a higher level of independence and initiative, were more of a band of ruffians and brutes, relying primarily on intimidation and bullying, than any well-organised force of men capable of curshing a persistant revolt. They were successfully driven off/defeated by both Bree and the Shire, realms regarded by those accustomed to battle, such as Aragorn and the Rangers, as inexperienced and "simple".

"[The ruffians] knew that the countryside had risen against them, and plainly meant to deal with the rebellion ruthlessly, at its centre in Bywater. But however grim they might be, they seemed to have no leader among them who understood warfare. They came on without any precautions..."
- The Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, Book Six, Chapter VIII, The Scouring of the Shire.

While, in the end, the Dunlendings don't seem to be anymore disorganised than their Isengard allies (in the books anyway) and capable of limited guile and cunning, I don't think it's plausible to make Dunland the "elite mini-faction", simply because they were larger than the Orcs and were Men. They always seem to be the ones who are called in for heavy lifting than anything else (attacking the shieldwall at the Fords of Isen, wielding the shielded Battering Ram at Helm's Deep.) Instead, I think they should be the "relatively cheap but heavy shock" mini-faction.

Edited by Bard, 26 April 2008 - 03:12 PM.

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