70 replies to this topic

[Nazgûl]

I have TWO finished models now for BOTH crossbows (model by IthronAiwendil) and regular bows (model by TheDeadPlayer), ready to be put into SEE. I would like some input from any guys (and gals?) that know the lore before I/we decide on what unit to use since I am going to skin multiple skins for them in true SEE spirit. I rather decide for one, and not have two separate ranged units, as I don't really see dwarves as ranged fighters. They should be most about strong melee, like Isengard. I have decided to remove the axe throwers, and use the model as a hero instead (suggestions are open for whom it should be - post in Hero subforum for that)...

So for Beta 4.7:
- Axe Throwers > gone!
- New hero based on Axe Thrower unit! (Suggestions in Hero subforum)
- Bows or Crossbows to replace them?

What say you?

[Dant]

I don't have idea what is fit better for Dwarves,But if you ask me i prefer Bows.

*Fixed *

Edited by Dant, 18 October 2009 - 11:58 PM.

[Gfire]

Hmmm... Yeah, bows. Dwarves were mentioned specifically using bows in the books, where as crossbows weren't mentioned at all. The Dwarves in the hobbit even had bows they could use to shoot out from their stone wall at the gate of Erebor.

Bows all the way.

[Námo]

The only reference to the Dwarves using bows is from The Hobbit as mentioned by Gfire above.

Bard then sent messengers at once to the Gate; but they found no gold or payment. Arrows came forth as they were within shot, and they hastened back in dismay. ...
[...]
Suddenly without a signal they [the Dwarves of Dain] sprang silently forward to attack. Bows twanged and arrows whistled; battle was about to be joined.

It is not clear, whether the second quote actually refers to the Dwarves shooting the arrows.

I have recently researched all the lore concerning The Dwarves (in all the books including The History of Middle-earth) and no other references exists, as far as I recollect; even in the lore on the Battle of Azanulbizar, fought in the open in front of the East-gate of Khazad-dûm, there are no references to the Dwarves using bows.

A note on 'realism':

Due to the short stature of the Dwarves, a normal bow like a 'self bow' or 'flatbow' would not be a very efficient weapon; the drawing weight (e.g. the amount of energy stored in the bow when drawn) would not be very high for a short bow fitting the Dwarves. If the bows of the Dwarven archers are to be their sole or primary weapon, it might be fitting to give them some kind of 'recurve composite bow', which (despite being short) can have a drawing weight that is higher than even a longbow.

For the 'Axe-throwers' ( ... where do they get all those axes from?) there exist a more realistic possibility for the Dwarves: throwing a broad-bladed chisel, or small Axe-head without haft ... it even has an attested name in Khuzdul:

... felak, meaning to use a tool like a broad-bladed chisel, or small axe-head without haft. Felak may also be used as a noun denoting such a tool. Cf. English "hammer", noun or verb.

[Nazgûl]

Thanks for all the lore references... perfect Allthough... how can we be sure that:

1) The bows mentioned was not if fact the bows of the men of Dale?
2) Bows and Crossbows.... both using the word "bows". Couldn't crossbows simply be called bows as well... I mean, in short?

The crossbow model is slightly cooler looking, made by Ithron. WIth my skins they would look sweet (I think hehe)! The bowmen are good but will need more work. They are using the miner/worker model and it looks a LITTLE bit funny, with small broad men with bows (like you said). But they would work too, once I give them multiple skins in SEE style

Any more input on this before I decide? =)

[Dant]

No rushing for the update,But it would be great if we could see those crossbows model so we can made decisions

I'm fine with both although Bow are lore references.

[khamulrulz]

ea made nice concepts for dwarven crossbowmen, but thick short bows could look really nice. what will happen to the axe towers?

[Dant]

In SEE mod(i guess beta 4.7) they gonna replace Dwarves Axe throwers with Dwarves bowman or crossbowman,It your choice to vote bows or corssbows.

[Nazgûl]

Lik eI said, the axethrowers are going to be cancelled... and we'll have another hero instead, using ONE of those units

[khamulrulz]

yeah. i know, but i asked what happens to the axe towers, not throwers

one idea is to give the charge ability to the khazad guard, and instead of an axe throw timer thing, give the veterans an axe-thrower ranged toggle.

then, there could be a basic ranged archer unit as well. (i honestly don't care whether its bows or crossbows). since the models are finished, could you post some screenies of them to help us decide?

so is the axe-thrower model going to be used for dwalin then?

Edited by khamulrulz, 19 October 2009 - 10:43 AM.

[Dant]

Hush! my bad for misunderstood

bows and crossbows probably have better range than throwers weapon,So how about we change dwarves tower to using arrows.

[Námo]

... how can we be sure that ... The bows mentioned was not if fact the bows of the men of Dale?

The first quote is definitely referring to Thorin and company shooting arrows at the emissaries of Bard, from within the newly erected wall across the Main Gate of Erebor. The second quote is indeed ambiguous.

... Bows and Crossbows.... both using the word "bows". Couldn't crossbows simply be called bows as well... I mean, in short?

The crossbow model is slightly cooler looking, made by Ithron. WIth my skins they would look sweet (I think hehe)! The bowmen are good but will need more work. They are using the miner/worker model and it looks a LITTLE bit funny, with small broad men with bows (like you said). But they would work too, once I give them multiple skins in SEE style

Considering that the only fact we have, is this: "Arrows came forth as they were within shot", the weapon releasing these arrows could be ANY kind of bow!

As said, IMO normal bows wouldn't make much sense ... and I can't really imagine Tolkien's Dwarves with 'recurve composite bows' ... so crossbows might after all be the best choice for some Dwarven archers, although it is not supported directly by the lore. [it is not said either, that they did not have such weapon, and they certainly had the skills to make crossbows]

A possible solution could be to assume, that the bows of the Dwarven were made 'for sale' (for a high price) in exchange for other goods, but never delivered (as in the case of the spears of the mysterious King Bladorthin) ... and if the Dwarves had such weapons in their store, why should they not use them in times of need?

... the talk turned to the great hoard itself and to the things that Thorin and Balin remembered. They wondered if they were still lying there unharmed in the hall below: the spears that were made for the armies of the great King Bladorthin (long since dead) each had a thrice-forged head and their shafts were inlaid with cunning gold, but they were newer delivered or paid for; ...

On the economy of Erebor:

The arrival of the Longbeard Dwarves at Erebor in 1999 doesn't seem to have heralded any significant rise in Dale's history. The Dwarves probably settled in Erebor because the town (or some community of men) was already there. But most of Durin's Folk were gathering in the northern mountains. Even though their kings lived at Erebor, they had too little economic impact on the region to survive. Thorin I left the Lonely Mountain in 2210, barely more than 200 years after his people had settled there. The Dwarves probably had not yet recovered enough of their former numbers to drive a boom economy.

But 380 years later, when Thror brought his people back to Erebor, matters were different. Now there were many more Dwarves than before. So many hungry mouths to feed would have required many farms. The Men of Dale may therefore have benefitted from an influx of neighboring peoples who hoped to trade with the Dwarves... when Thror arrived with a great following of Dwarves, the local chieftains probably saw an opportunity unfolding before them, and inviting their friends and relatives from all over the region to join them, they built the city that became Dale.

From 2590 to 2758 should therefore have been a period of great growth and expansion for the Northmen. In Appendix A to The Lord of the Rings Tolkien writes: "To the Great Hall of Thrain, Thror brought back the Arkenstone, and he and his folk prospered and became rich, and they had the friendship of all Men that dwelt near. For they made not only things of wonder and beauty but weapons and armour of great worth; and there was great traffic of ore between them and their kin in the Iron Hills. Thus the Northmen who lived between the Celduin...and Carnen...became strong and drove back all enemies from the East; and the Dwarves lived in plenty, and there was feasting and song in the Halls of Erebor."

[...]

The prosperity of Dale is summarized by Thorin in The Hobbit. The Dwarves provided the industry on which Dale's merchants grew wealthy. Girion must have controlled a vast trading network between Erebor, Dale, the Iron Hills, and Laketown (which was independent of Dale and itself in control of a riverborne trading network). Of course, trade seems also to have existed with Thranduil's Elven realm in northern Mirkwood.

Dale's economy was probably based originally on trading food to the Dwarves in exchange for stone-masonry, smithing, and specialized industrial fields ...

... and btw:

I have decided to remove the axe throwers, and use the model as a hero instead (suggestions are open for whom it should be - post in Hero subforum for that) ...

What say you?

Not to be rude, but that's a pretty thin info for deciding such an important matter. Could you give some more hints, please.

Edited by Námo, 19 October 2009 - 11:49 AM.

[Archon]

Thorin was the only one who had kept his feet and his wits. As soon as they had landed he had bent his bow and fitted an arrow in case any hidden guardian of the boat appeared. Now he sent a swift and sure shot into the leaping beast.

I agree that crossbows are a good choice for Dwarves, but obviously they use normal bows as well. So therefore a recurve bow similar to the one the Mongols used would be perfect for a group of Dwarven archers.

[Námo]

[m@tt]

*Gets out Hobbit PDF*

A handful of mentions to bows. None to crossbows.

Beorn gives the Dwarves some bows and arrows.

I will provide you with skins for carrying water, and I will give you some bows and arrows. But I doubt very much whether anything you find in Mirkwood will be wholesome to eat or to drink.

Thorin uses one:

Out of the gloom came suddenly the shape of a flying deer. It charged into the dwarves and bowled them over, then gathered itself for a leap. High it sprang and cleared the water with a mighty jump. But it did not reach the other side in safety. Thorin was the only one who had kept his feet and his wits. As soon as they had landed he had bent his bow and fitted an arrow in case any hidden guardian of the boat appeared.

Some others use them too:

Suddenly on the path ahead appeared some white deer, a hind and fawns as snowy white as the hart had been dark. They glimmered in the shadows. Before Thorin could cry out three of the dwarves had leaped to their feet and loosed
off arrows from their bows. None seemed to find their mark. The deer turned and vanished in the trees as silently as they had come, and in vain the dwarves shot their arrows after them.

"Stop! stop!" shouted Thorin; but it was too late, the excited dwarves had wasted their last arrows, and now the bows that Beorn had given them were useless.

Thorin again (no idea whats going, probably a few typos here!):

Then Thorin seized a bow of horn and shot an arrow at the speaker. It smote into his shield and stuck there quivering.

I'm sure there are more somewhere. TDH uses archers only, so I'm sure Nertea, Dain, Bard etc had good sources for choosing so.

[khamulrulz]

crossbows in the game would give the dwarven archers a different identity to the dale archers: like higher damage, but slower rate of fire. also, that shows the technological advancedness (i made up that word) of the dwarves. agree, anybody?

if regular bows are used, make them short and really powerful composite bows, with high damage, but low rate of fire

Edited by khamulrulz, 19 October 2009 - 12:11 PM.

[m@tt]

From Wikipedia:

Tolkien's Dwarves, much like their mythical forebears, are great metalworkers, smiths and stoneworkers. Fierce in battle, their main weapons are axes (referenced in many subsequent fantasy works), but they also use bows, swords, shields and mattocks.[18] Unlike other fantasy dwarves, Tolkien does not explicitly have them use war hammers.

[Mathijs]

Considering that the only fact we have, is this: "Arrows came forth as they were within shot", the weapon releasing these arrows could be ANY kind of bow!

Crossbow ''arrows'' are called bolts.

[Námo]

... Thorin again (no idea whats going, probably a few typos here!):

Then Thorin seized a bow of horn and shot an arrow at the speaker. It smote into his shield and stuck there quivering.

I'm sure there are more somewhere ...

... from The Hobbit, chapter 'The Gathering of the Clouds'.

... and "a bow of horn" is definitely a composite bow!

Another quote from the same source:

'Be off!' called Thorin. 'You have mail upon, which was made by my folks, and its too good for you. It cannot be pierced by arrows; but if you do not hasten, I will sting your miserable feet. So be swift!'

[Hermoor]

I think crossbows only, axes are unreslistic. And bows doesn't really suit dwarfes in my opinion.