74 replies to this topic

[King Dain II Ironfoot]

Yup and it is really nice to see someone who sahres your opinion!

[Nazgûl]

About crossbows, you should read this topic from start...

[King Dain II Ironfoot]

I have helped Rider with The Horse Lords Mod about Dwarves and such a lot!And he actually was Ok with Iron Hills having Crossbows,you see I think Crossbows are mroe Dwarvish like than a Bow but still I think its nice to have devirsity so while Erebor and Ered Luin where Thorin and Kili are is obvious that they like and specializes in Archery Iron hills in a contrast to that may use Crossbows just to differ from their kin thats my idea and as I see WETA was on the same opinion nad some people like that idea too!Thats just my opinion and I like both Archers and Crossbowman I just wanted to have more unique style for each Dwarven Realm!  

But a great Mod is a Great Mod no matter what and I can honeslty say yours is one of the best there is!

[Lauri]

Wow, I had forgotten all about that topic.. Anyways, I still stand by my opinion back then. Saying something is more "dwarvish" isn't an argument. After all, it's more "dwarvish" for dwarves to use axes, isn't it? Yet axe-throwers makes no tactical sense.

[Nazgûl]

http://middle-earth....n-middle-earth/

 

http://tolkiengatewa.../wiki/Crossbows

 

I am not against crossbows, but I know most lore fans are. I haven't really decided what to do, but I do agree that regular archers in all factions are a bit redundant. The only ones we see using crossbows are uruks. That's not canon either, but it is in the movie. If Weta could do dwarven crossbows, so can we. Ultimately it's up to me, but I do want to please the commuity as well to some extent ;p

 

I think this topic has some interesting remarks:

http://www.thetolkie...rossbows.14639/

Edited by Nazgûl, 10 June 2015 - 04:05 PM.

[King Dain II Ironfoot]

Wow, I had forgotten all about that topic.. Anyways, I still stand by my opinion back then. Saying something is more "dwarvish" isn't an argument. After all, it's more "dwarvish" for dwarves to use axes, isn't it? Yet axe-throwers makes no tactical sense.

All I am saying that because it have Dwarvish like style and is used in PJ Movies and WETA had desiogns for them they will be good to add more diversity to the Dwarven Realms thats all!I know more "dwarvish" is not enough thats why I stated my reasons! I like Bows a lot but still to be mroe unique I wont mind Iron Hills uding Crossbows since the only Faction that has them is Isengard and its Evil Faction I think it will be good idea 1 Good faction to has them and iro nHills feel good for them and it wil make them unique with thier own style,like instead of Catapults may be Ballistas,instead of Battlewagon may be War Chariot and such... And I know that in Middle-Earth Tolkien doesn't mention Crossbows but since PJ used them for Isengard it means it can be implemended! I have read the Books and do not like eveything in the MOvies but still I love both and have no problem with the no so cannon stuff,I do not mind even the Battle Rams its for the sake of more interesintg and cool Middle-Earth!

[Mathijs]

The big deal about Dwarves using crossbows comes down to the fact that crossbows were never mentioned by Tolkien anywhere in his work (let alone specifically related to Dwarves), whereas Dwarves were mentioned as using bows. My personal, additional gripe with crossbows for Dwarves is that they were always more described as great craftsmen and traders, not engineers. 

 

They were great at mining, and shaping and building with stone, as well as working with materials extracted from stone (metals) because they were created by Aulë the Smith, a Vala (God) that is closely associated with smithing and shaping the earth. Many people extrapolate that to Dwarves also being great engineers and creators of mechanical things, and while this is true in the case of toy-making (though Dwarven toys were also considered 'magical'), I don't think this means they must necessarily use crossbows or were fond of making other mechanical creations (besides the aforementioned toys, whose mechanical nature might be Dwarven magic, or, reversing that, the mechanical bits were so advanced other races considered them magic, which sort of goes against my point, but whatever ). There's certainly nothing in Tolkien's text to suggest it, anyway. It's a tired old trope that originated long after Tolkien wrote his final words, and unfortunately Peter Jackson found it necessary to drag it out of its TV-Tropes entry and apply it once again. 

 

Dwarves were strong, durable creatures that were long-lived and interested in developing their skills. To me, that makes a short bow (they were lacking in the arm-length department) to be the ideal weapon. Bows require skill and strength to use, after all. I love Weta's design for Kili's bow. I'd use the hell out of that design.

[King Dain II Ironfoot]

I agree with you!But about Dwarven MEchanic we have also their Catapults and Siege Weapons over all which were much stronger and better than any other,so Cossbows do fir somehow and I meant only 1 Dwarven realm to ahve them for more devirsity as I said to have some differnece between the realms cuz even if they are Dwarven Race they still have different cultures and such and yes I know that Iron Hills and Erebor Dwarfs are Longbeards but still under different Leader and place to live for many many years so it suggest having some differneces from their kin! So basicly I want Crossbows for Only Iron Hills while Erebor and Ered Luin use Bows,I too love the design of Kili and Throin Bows and I love to see and Dwarven Units using it but lets at least one Kingdom use something else!Since Axe Throwers are not so effective and such as you stated they still can be used as MIddle Ranged Elite unit strong against more Heavy Armored foes but only in Erebor!So I tihnk there can be compromise about the Crossbow giving them only to one Kingdom for the sake of more diversity!

Here is Thorins Bows http://media.moddb.c...4/Kilis_Bow.png s

and Kilis Bow http://media.moddb.c...w_and_Arrow.pngand as I said I love those desings I like them more than the Elven Ones and Thorins can be used of Erebor while Kilis for Ered Luin Soldiers!  And this I think is great for Iron Hills 

http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/1/762/761504/thumb_620x2000/Iron_Hills_Crossbow_Concept.jpg

And I know that Tolkien haven't mentioned Crossbows but still this Then Gil-galad and Elendil passed into Mordor and encompassed the stronghold of Sauron; and they laid seige to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy,   

Suggests that Bols is something that can be fired from Something like Crossbow while Darts and Arrows from Bow so it a way there is a little possibility about Crossbows existing in middle Earth!

Edited by King Dain II Ironfoot, 10 June 2015 - 05:03 PM.

[Mathijs]

Do we have their siege weapons, though? In BFME2, yeah, but not in the book, which is what I was basing my argument around.

[King Dain II Ironfoot]

Thats the point,why some people are so obssesed by follwoing the books on 100% why not ont 98% or 95% we do not know what chages wouod have Tolkien done!!Still I love both Books and Movies and I have always thought that the perfect Mod is a balanced Combination between the two,I do not see a reason for being so narowed minded thinking like this wasnt in the book  and this is and etc. All I am saying about the Crossbows and some other Movie materials is that trough them even if not on 100% lore true we can get more interesting and diverse game and factions,and I am asking why not!?  And from Dwarven Siege Weaopns we have the Iron Hills Ballistaas from BoFA so it is something!

Edited by King Dain II Ironfoot, 11 June 2015 - 06:06 AM.

[Mathijs]

I know, you're asking 'why not' and I'm telling you why I would never add Dwarven crossbowmen to any of my works.

 

In my mod I don't follow the books 100%. Both of the new factions, Gundabad and Eriador, have plenty of my own inventions (and those of my teammate Dunedain_Ranger76). The line we follow though is consistency with what Tolkien did write, and more importantly, consistency with the spirit and themes of his story (as we interpret them). As I explained in my longer post above, crossbows don't fit within that line of thinking/conceptualizing because they aren't consistent with my interpretation of Tolkien's ideas and intentions.

 

You are free to disagree, of course. It's just my opinion.

[Bashkuga]

You don't want this discussion King Dain, believe me, or else someone (not me  ) might throw in a couple of points about medieval warfare and BOOM: you get a France VS England in the Hundred Years War discussion all over again.

 

If Nazgul doesn't want crossbows, then it is his choice, let's leave it to that.

[King Dain II Ironfoot]

honestly I do not see how can someone compare Midieval Warfare and the 100 Year War with a fantasy World where for thounds of years there wasnt any kind of progress similar to our real world! But I remeber reading that dosscussion and i will follow you advice!I do not want to tell Nazgul what to doI ahve never said do that cuz I want to,I am jsut stating my opinion and my reasons to back it up!It is up to him,he has a great mod and it will become greater even without those things!Still there are other Mods who are willing to use more things so there is no problem! L(

[Nazgûl]

 

 

If Nazgul doesn't want crossbows, then it is his choice, let's leave it to that.

I never said that though, the community said that

I'm not ruling them out. I just haven't reached the point of no return regarding decision. Like I said, the link I gave had many good point in favor of crossbows. We'll see when we get there during the summer... 

[King Dain II Ironfoot]

I hope I was able to give proper reasons for my opinion and I am waiting for the best! keep the good work on you awesome Mod I can't wait to play it