762 replies to this topic

[Creator]

1. What about Nuke Gen Red Guard with Nuke bullet?
2. Is there something to replace its role in order to simplify aircraft (F18) control?
3. How close? I think the unit group attacking the jammer station should have a chance to retreat, which can't be done if they're jammed.
4. Because of this, I think Toxin and Demo should get better aircraft detector. And what will the spy drone reveal? Ground units & structures only?
5. This is going to be interesting. What about flame gen?

1. Nuke bullet will remain without changes. It will damage tanks.
2. No, except of global build time increase. High build times will decrease number of units on battlefield and lower all micro in game.
3. Aproximately, rank 1 artillery attack range.
4. It will reveal all grount units and structures. And I don't think that it is OP. You always can shot it down with stingers.
5. Flame general aviation is in progress. I can say that he will have weak plane at rank 1 too.

1. This should be used only for cyber general cause all other USA generals have good revealing units, only cyber not, now its OP
2. Sniper Drones?Hmm...OP i think, imagine bunch of laser tanks with Sniper Drones, invincible. Also, imagine hummers full with Ant tank units, and upgraded with sniper drones, 4-5 of them, hard battle.
3. Dont like it, maybe 3-4 times
4. Again i think OP, China has good aircraft units, but at rank3 it was pretty good balanced. Nuke Migs at rank 1, and Anti Aircraft Plaines at rank1? Not even Air Force general has this power before rank3. China has good ground units, its not wise to enable them to support them at rank1 with strong aircraft units.
5. Dont understand, not even minniguner or...?

1. I don't think so.
2. Not OP because they don't have limited attack range and kill soldiers with 2-3 shots.
3. 3-4 times is not possible.
4. Where did you learn to read? I repeat:
- Tank general: J-10 is available at rank 1.
- Infantry general: J-10 is available at rank 1.
- Nuke general: Iron Dragon was weakened and became available at rank 1.
Other aircrafts will remain as they were: at rank 3.
5. Yes, not even minigunner.

1. what?i don't think the game needs to be any slower.
2. except for the inf.general,i don't see how this is needed.
3. ok,why that,that isn't really good,you're making the counters a little too hard now,they were really fine.

1. The game needs to have less units on battlefield in order to lower micro. For example, Battlecruiser from Starcraft was build for 1 minute 13 seconds. Grunt (the weakest unit) form Warcraft 2 was built for 1 minute. Overlord will be build for 40 seconds in Contra 008. It is not so much anyway.
2. For taking out artillery. Especially, GLA buggies.
3. If you ever saw how a pack of F-18 spends all their ammo to kill 1 soldier then you must understant why it was made.

Edited by Creator, 18 January 2010 - 11:57 AM.

[Arcadian Daze]

All: Assault rifles and machineguns can not fire at tanks any more.
- All: Aircrafts armed with antitank missiles can not fire at soldiers any more.

does this also mean they dont fire at light vehicles anymore?
then it would be OP since gatling tanks really can tear though artillery,
if its jsut tanks it would be ok since it doesnt have alot of effect on it

[dcesarec]

At the same place where have you learn to behave.

[Casojin]

3. Aproximately, rank 1 artillery attack range.

If I order a tank to attack it, then my tank can't retreat until it's destroyed. :( Anyway, is this what you want it to be?

4. It will reveal all grount units and structures. And I don't think that it is OP. You always can shot it down with stingers.

Toxin Stinger trooper scanning range is very limited and Demo has no mobile stealth aircraft detector.

1. The game needs to have less units on battlefield in order to lower micro. For example, Battlecruiser from Starcraft was build for 1 minute 13 seconds. Grunt (the weakest unit) form Warcraft 2 was built for 1 minute. Overlord will be build for 40 seconds in Contra 008. It is not so much anyway.

I think you're thinking the same thing but....the game would slow down and the advance stuff would be less used (since the game could end without using them). BTW, I don't want to turn C&C into Warcraft or Starcraft.

[Thats me!]

1. The game needs to have less units on battlefield in order to lower micro. For example, Battlecruiser from Starcraft was build for 1 minute 13 seconds. Grunt (the weakest unit) form Warcraft 2 was built for 1 minute. Overlord will be build for 40 seconds in Contra 008. It is not so much anyway.

well,the reason i play cnc is because it ain't sc or wc,its faster them them,i hate the slownes of wc,and i think such a slowness won't fit gen,+buildings are gonna a beast now,with only half the units around,25% health nerf isn't enough.

I think you're thinking the same thing but....the game would slow down and the advance stuff would be less used (since the game could end without using them). BTW, I don't want to turn C&C into Warcraft or Starcraft.

completely agree

3. If you ever saw how a pack of F-18 spends all their ammo to kill 1 soldier then you must understant why it was made.

what about migs and stealth fighters?they are quite effective vs. infantry
and what about machine gun units vs. light vehichles,like artillery,fast weak units(which are mostly guns)could take them out,with that change,you must use cannon units,which will be quite annoying,or?

[dcesarec]

Disable infantry units with machine guns to fight vehicles i such a bad idea. Slowly in contra we will have units-and opposite units (which means only those units that are able ti kill them). What if you have fight against Infantry general and you have build 10 red guards,in fight against 4 minigunners they survive, from the side one tank is comming, now you cant use your squad of elite infantry, you must build missile infantry. No more alternative solutions, only units and "contra" units, generals and "contra" generals like i said in the beginning (this is real meaning of Contra mod?

Question, what will help Nuke General to stop early Dozer rush? Tank hunters? Dont have them without war factory. Red Guards? Cant fire on vehicles anymore...

You could disable TOW missiles fire at infantry, when i move my army of guardian drones near one infantry they all will fire TOw missiles at this infantry without any success.

With some grouped units is not possible to give them guard command. Example, gun buggy, scorpion and tunnel defenders from stealth general. Shield button is not present.

[Casojin]

Creator, I think there is another way to implement the warhead/armor type.
Set small arms to damage only 0.01% of the tank armor. Infantry can still be used to buy some time for producing counter units not a useless heap of meat.

[Skywalker]

All: Game dynamics was changed. Health/cost/build time ratios were recalculated the following way: money gaining speed was lowered 2 times; build time for all units was increased 2 times; building armor was lowered by 25%.

I think it's the worst idea. Why lowering micro? This doesn't make any sense. The game will slowdown, reaching ranks would take longer, as a result more games would be finished before reaching even rank 3. What is more, I suppose it's a fundamental change of C&C conception itself. I don't wanna watch lonely tanks cruising around big maps. Bullshit. I'd rather stay in Contra 7. 

[dcesarec]

All: Game dynamics was changed. Health/cost/build time ratios were recalculated the following way: money gaining speed was lowered 2 times; build time for all units was increased 2 times; building armor was lowered by 25%.

I think it's the worst idea. Why lowering micro? This doesn't make any sense. The game will slowdown, reaching ranks would take longer, as a result more games would be finished before reaching even rank 3. What is more, I suppose it's a fundamental change of C&C conception itself. I don't wanna watch lonely tanks cruising around big maps. Bullshit. I'd rather stay in Contra 7. 

Yes, i completely agree with you Sky. Im not satisfied with 70% of changes.

[Creator]

does this also mean they dont fire at light vehicles anymore?

No of course.

If I order a tank to attack it, then my tank can't retreat until it's destroyed. :( Anyway, is this what you want it to be?

Jamming field is not constant - it is ability. Ability has its reload time and does not jamm units permanently. Units will recover and you will be able to continue attack.

Toxin Stinger trooper scanning range is very limited and Demo has no mobile stealth aircraft detector.

Hmm... you are right. I did not think about it. It must be solved somehow. Maybe 2 different spy drones: with detector and without it?

I think you're thinking the same thing but....the game would slow down and the advance stuff would be less used (since the game could end without using them). BTW, I don't want to turn C&C into Warcraft or Starcraft.

Honestly, I like Warcraft-2 and Starcraft gameplay more than the one from CnC series. Lowered build time and lowered supply gathering time will slow down production and will not allow to build heaps of units, but at the same time movement speed and rate of fire were not changed. So, battles will happen with the same speed.

The changes made give the following advantages:
- More stable connection in multiplayer games, less change to catch a mismatch;
- You can not have everything at the same time: you must think where to direct your money flow: to build defenses, to build economy or to build an army;
- Less number of units of battlefield will reduce micro management.

what about migs and stealth fighters?they are quite effective vs. infantry and what about machine gun units vs. light vehichles,like artillery,fast weak units(which are mostly guns)could take them out,with that change,you must use cannon units,which will be quite annoying,or?

Yet another man who has problems with reading.
1. Aircrafts armed with antitank missiles can not fire at soldiers any more.
2. Assault rifles and machineguns can not fire at tanks any more.
Light vehicle is not a tank. Gattling cannon is not a machinegun. MiG missiles are not antitank.

Question, what will help Nuke General to stop early Dozer rush? Tank hunters? Dont have them without war factory. Red Guards? Cant fire on vehicles anymore...

Assault rifles and machineguns can not fire at tanks any more.
Dozer is not a tank.

You could disable TOW missiles fire at infantry, when i move my army of guardian drones near one infantry they all will fire TOw missiles at this infantry without any success.

Good idea.

With some grouped units is not possible to give them guard command. Example, gun buggy, scorpion and tunnel defenders from stealth general. Shield button is not present.

I'll fix it.

Creator, I think there is another way to implement the warhead/armor type.
Set small arms to damage only 0.01% of the tank armor. Infantry can still be used to buy some time for producing counter units not a useless heap of meat.

It was set to 1% in Contra 007. The problem was in micro. Antiinfantry units selected tanks as their targets often enough and forgot about their primary targets. It could be fixed by retargeting them manualy. But it s annoying micro.

All: Game dynamics was changed. Health/cost/build time ratios were recalculated the following way: money gaining speed was lowered 2 times; build time for all units was increased 2 times; building armor was lowered by 25%.

I think it's the worst idea. Why lowering micro? This doesn't make any sense. The game will slowdown, reaching ranks would take longer, as a result more games would be finished before reaching even rank 3. What is more, I suppose it's a fundamental change of C&C conception itself. I don't wanna watch lonely tanks cruising around big maps. Bullshit. I'd rather stay in Contra 7. 

The changes made are not final. Beta version will be released next month. You will be able to download it, play it and test all these innovations. I hope you will like it. If not, I can return some parameters back.

Edited by Creator, 19 January 2010 - 02:27 PM.

[Su8perkillr]

I think you're thinking the same thing but....the game would slow down and the advance stuff would be less used (since the game could end without using them). BTW, I don't want to turn C&C into Warcraft or Starcraft.

Honestly, I like Warcraft-2 and Starcraft gameplay more than the one from CnC series. Lowered build time and lowered supply gathering time will slow down production and will not allow to build heaps of units, but at the same time movement speed and rate of fire were not changed. So, battles will happen with the same speed.

The changes made give the following advantages:
- More stable connection in multiplayer games, less change to catch a mismatch;
- You can not have everything at the same time: you must think where to direct your money flow: to build defenses, to build economy or to build an army;
- Less number of units of battlefield will reduce micro management.

well... if you do that, it will still be more boring. because it takes ages to make something of a battlegroup, and as the AI waits till they have enough units you cant do anything. maybe some units should have longer construction time (infantry maybe) while others should be shorter (big bertha now takes 2 minutes, and with the update 4 minutes so ull sit back waiting till that damn tank walks outside of the factory

[Thats me!]

Honestly, I like Warcraft-2 and Starcraft gameplay more than the one from CnC series. Lowered build time and lowered supply gathering time will slow down production and will not allow to build heaps of units, but at the same time movement speed and rate of fire were not changed. So, battles will happen with the same speed.

The changes made give the following advantages:
- More stable connection in multiplayer games, less change to catch a mismatch;
- You can not have everything at the same time: you must think where to direct your money flow: to build defenses, to build economy or to build an army;
- Less number of units of battlefield will reduce micro management.

but that will also result in:
-reaching ranks will take double as long,which will be quite annoying,it already long enough now,you must half the exp required to rank then
-buildings are gonna be a beast.
-matches are gonna be boring,and because of lowered speed,match may take longer,which will make mismatches happen anyway.
-the game will lose its cnc feeling.

so,it gives also more disadvantages the advantages.

about the infantry change you metioned in part1 log,for inf gen,what about making minigunner require warfac to be built?the inf gen will start with a regualar red guard,and he can built minigunners after warfac.

Edited by Thats me!, 19 January 2010 - 05:15 PM.

[Creator]

big bertha now takes 2 minutes, and with the update 4 minutes so ull sit back waiting till that damn tank walks outside of the factory

Actually, Bertha is built for 50 seconds in Contra 007. It will be built for 100 seconds in next version. If you want more production speed - build more factories.

By the way, yet another example form DOW:
1. All super units are build for 90 seconds (Imperial Baneblade, Marine Land Raider, Orc Squiggoth and others);
2. All powerful (but not super) vehicles are built for 45 seconds (Imperial Leman Russ, Eldar Fire Prism, Tau Hammerhead and others).
And nobody says that DOW is too slow.

Let's compare:
1. Super units from Contra 008 will be build for 100 seconds;
2. Powerful units (Overlords, Emperors) will be build for 40-50 seconds.
It is aproximately the same.

Maximum army size in DOW - 4-6 vehicles, 5-7 infantry squads and 2-4 heroes. Bigger army can not be build because of unit cap: no more than 1 super unit, no more than 1 hero of each type, no more than 20 infantry and 20 vehicle supply units and so on. Nobody says that DOW is boring.

but that will also result in:
1.reaching ranks will take double as long,which will be quite annoying,it already long enough now,you must half the exp required to rank then
2.buildings are gonna be a beast.
3.matches are gonna be boring,and because of lowered speed,match may take longer,which will make mismatches happen anyway.
4.the game will lose its cnc feeling.

so,it gives also more disadvantages the advantages.

about the infantry change you metioned in part1 log,for inf gen,what about making minigunner require warfac to be built?the inf gen will start with a regualar red guard,and he can built minigunners after warfac.

1. Thank you for pointing this. I will reduce experience requirements for ranks and keep old rank gaining speed.
2. I lowered building "health" by 1/4.
3. No, matches will not take longer. They will stay as short as now, but combats will happen with less number of units. Nobody will spam units any more.
4. You are too late with this. True CnC feeling was lost with Westwood death. Generals have nothing common with CnC from the very beginning. EA develops its own games and uses CnC trademark for advertisement only. CnC is no more!

Edited by Creator, 19 January 2010 - 06:13 PM.

[Skywalker]

Maximum army size in DOW - 4-6 vehicles, 5-7 infantry squads and 2-4 heroes. Bigger army can not be build because of unit cap: no more than 1 super unit, no more than 1 hero of each type, no more than 20 infantry and 20 vehicle supply units and so on. Nobody says that DOW is boring.

Well, I should say that DOW is DOW, Warhammer has its own game style, it is more focused on tactics, and what is more important, it is completely different game. DOW may have its own special speed and its own special everything as its mechanics has nothing to do with Generals.

You are too late with this. True CnC feeling was lost with Westwood death. Generals have nothing common with CnC from the very beginning. EA develops its own games and uses CnC trademark for advertisement only. CnC is no more!

I would not agree with you. Although Generals are not that much RA or TS, they have not only the spirit of C&C. You should admit that Gens bear more resemblance to Dune 2 than to Warcraft 2. Or you can compare it to War 3 - they hardly have anything in common. It's like comparing it to, for example, the great HoMM series. And if we take Warhammer, it has nothing to do with DOW. It goes without saying that Generals are not that typical for C&C, but it inherited much from RA and Dune series.

[dcesarec]

I can only say,when you need quick build some sort of tanks to help your team mate player thats in trouble,you wont be able to help him.Also,if you capture someons war factory and wanna fast produce some units to deal big damage in enemys base-you wont be able to do that.This trigger question about structures health (cause you need some good thing of capturing enemy structures) and this triggers everything (new firepower and so on and so on).When someone spawns gla infantry units in your base and start with capture,you wont be able to construct quickly anti infantry tanks to defend.You wont be able to react like before.Creator,this will completely change contra as it is and you could loose many fans cause they will rather stay on contra 007.In 008 as i se,game will be predicted from beginning,who build tanks first,he will won,and so on.
What if enemy sabotages your power plants and production is additionaly slowed,its better to surrender than fight.No one would rush and leave his bas unprotected,cause you cant afford yourself a mistake.Which means,it would be boring,slow,and strictly planned for few attacks.

Edited by dcesarec, 19 January 2010 - 09:29 PM.

[Su8perkillr]

big bertha now takes 2 minutes, and with the update 4 minutes so ull sit back waiting till that damn tank walks outside of the factory

Actually, Bertha is built for 50 seconds in Contra 007. It will be built for 100 seconds in next version. If you want more production speed - build more factories.

By the way, yet another example form DOW:
1. All super units are build for 90 seconds (Imperial Baneblade, Marine Land Raider, Orc Squiggoth and others);
2. All powerful (but not super) vehicles are built for 45 seconds (Imperial Leman Russ, Eldar Fire Prism, Tau Hammerhead and others).
And nobody says that DOW is too slow.

Let's compare:
1. Super units from Contra 008 will be build for 100 seconds;
2. Powerful units (Overlords, Emperors) will be build for 40-50 seconds.
It is aproximately the same.

Maximum army size in DOW - 4-6 vehicles, 5-7 infantry squads and 2-4 heroes. Bigger army can not be build because of unit cap: no more than 1 super unit, no more than 1 hero of each type, no more than 20 infantry and 20 vehicle supply units and so on. Nobody says that DOW is boring.

but that will also result in:
1.reaching ranks will take double as long,which will be quite annoying,it already long enough now,you must half the exp required to rank then
2.buildings are gonna be a beast.
3.matches are gonna be boring,and because of lowered speed,match may take longer,which will make mismatches happen anyway.
4.the game will lose its cnc feeling.

so,it gives also more disadvantages the advantages.

about the infantry change you metioned in part1 log,for inf gen,what about making minigunner require warfac to be built?the inf gen will start with a regualar red guard,and he can built minigunners after warfac.

1. Thank you for pointing this. I will reduce experience requirements for ranks and keep old rank gaining speed.
2. I lowered building "health" by 1/4.
3. No, matches will not take longer. They will stay as short as now, but combats will happen with less number of units. Nobody will spam units any more.
4. You are too late with this. True CnC feeling was lost with Westwood death. Generals have nothing common with CnC from the very beginning. EA develops its own games and uses CnC trademark for advertisement only. CnC is no more!

Well, if you haven't lost your brains on the way here, you should be able to know that this is CnC not one or another blizgame. CnC people dont care about DoW, WII(I) SC or other RTSes. So leave it this way, or ill only play 007 for the rest of my live.

[Casojin]

What I hate about Blizzard game is that players have to concentrate so much on the base-building (and base controlling to provide enough number of units to fight on the battlefield). Current versoin of Contra gives us a balance of both base-building and battlefield tactics.

I like the game pace for Contra right now. That's the reason I prefer Contra over Shockwave. Contra is already slowed down by rank-teching. It doesn't need to be slower. I even think about making Contra 007.5 (with your permission, of course) once after the new Contra 008 is released for those who hates this slow pace mechanism.

Build-time for everything is quite long right now. It doesn't need to be longer.

[dcesarec]

Wow Casojin,you are reading my mind.I was also thinking about separate Contra for those who dont like so many changes and differences between just one version,007 and 008.But ofcourse,Creators permission is needed cause only that is fair,and it still would be published as Creators,only some bugs fixed and ballanced.Hope it wont come to that cause it will separate many players.And Creator you alone could do that,make Contra 008.1 for us without game slowing,and disabling infantry vs tanks and 008.2 with all your other changes which you so badly wanna make.

I have an idea.Make a pool thread here and on redsys forum and let us vote if for or against this specific change.

Edited by dcesarec, 20 January 2010 - 08:45 AM.

[Thats me!]

By the way, yet another example form DOW:........

i have played dow(altough not too much),and i like it,howver cnc is not dow,i play cnc because its cnc.

You are too late with this. True CnC feeling was lost with Westwood death. Generals have nothing common with CnC from the very beginning. EA develops its own games and uses CnC trademark for advertisement only. CnC is no more!

i know this is true,but for me generals,has the lasr bit of cnc feeling in it,with fast paced games and all the stuff,+contra 007 make it fell more like cnc for me,but i think 008 will make this feeling gone

I lowered building "health" by 1/4.

with onlt half the units around,that means buildings with that change gonna have 50% more health then buildings in 007,buildings health must be reduced by 50% not only 25%.

I like the game pace for Contra right now,Contra is already slowed down by rank-teching

agree.

I have an idea.Make a pool thread here and on redsys forum and let us vote if for or against this specific change.

i think that will solve the proplem

creator,contra is in the top 100 upcoming mods in moddb,people voted there because they like it how it is,but i think once they see so much change,i don't think thew will vote it for top 5.

http://www.moddb.com...r-awards/top100

it is in the upcoming list

Edited by Thats me!, 20 January 2010 - 09:39 AM.

[Casojin]

Wow Casojin,you are reading my mind.I was also thinking about separate Contra for those who dont like so many changes and differences between just one version,007 and 008.But ofcourse,Creators permission is needed cause only that is fair,and it still would be published as Creators,only some bugs fixed and ballanced.Hope it wont come to that cause it will separate many players.And Creator you alone could do that,make Contra 008.1 for us without game slowing,and disabling infantry vs tanks and 008.2 with all your other changes which you so badly wanna make.

I have an idea.Make a pool thread here and on redsys forum and let us vote if for or against this specific change.

A pool is a good idea. I'll definitely vote for original play style.
Beta is not a bad idea too but it takes some time to adjust the code back to original mechanism.
Creator, you've done a great job thus far at balancing and a lot more (with limitation of ZH).
A game with 12 factions cannot be completely balance (just like there is no perfection in this universe).
So, there is no need to push too hard toward perfection.