762 replies to this topic

[fieldwings]

...building armor was lowered by 25%
- All: Assault rifles and machineguns can not fire at tanks any more.

These are honestly the only things I have real issues with; there were some other things but I read through your responses to the complaints and figured it does work out for the most part. But, really, some buildings already had weak armor to begin with, why lower them more? Building armor should also stay the same because when you or the opponent gets leveled enough to strike with generals powers or superweapons, it becomes a glaring problem because you can lose a lot of the base to a single such strike (though forget about the Nuclear Storm right now, that's a game-ender by default). As for assault rifles and machine guns, there is the point that such units can assist anti-armor units to bring tank destruction slightly faster. During a heavy assault, you want as much concentrated fire as possible, and that includes concentrated support even from machine guns and assault rifles. This isn't actually a big deal but it is a valid point.

The underlying problem I see now from some of the changes you're making is that you're trying to minimize micromanagement. This is bad. It's a C&C game, and whether you like it or not, it IS a real C&C game; Westwood had plans to develop Generals before they ever even considered allowing themselves to be sucked up by EA; they even had a video related to their version of Generals in the FTP, but I don't know if it's there anymore (I do have it downloaded on one of my hard drives, and I can upload it once I find it if anyone wishes; that is, if it doesn't exist on the FTP anymore). That aside, strategy means micro, and removing micro mitigates strategic effort, blurring the line between newbie and professional. Now, I don't consider myself a professional anything by any stretch, though I can adapt and hold my own well enough, but minimizing micro in C&C AND comparing the level of micro to other big-name strategy titles isn't fair and doesn't benefit the image of the modification in any way.

Anyway, have you looked into the issue I brought up with the Spectre some time ago where it auto-selects for all human players regardless of who called it? I know you mentioned you'd look into and possibly fix it, but I wonder if you've gotten anywhere with that. I would try it myself but WorldBuilder doesn't want to cooperate when I tell it to import scripts.

All that off my chest now, I'm seriously looking forward to new screenshots of any new units you put into the mod. I've been loyal since 004 and that will not change until you stop making new versions. (Then again, still probably not. )

Edited by fieldwings, 15 February 2010 - 11:25 AM.

[Creator]

But, really, some buildings already had weak armor to begin with, why lower them more? Building armor should also stay the same because when you or the opponent gets leveled enough to strike with generals powers or superweapons, it becomes a glaring problem because you can lose a lot of the base to a single such strike.

Actually, base building armor was doubled in one of previous versions. Many players did not like it. As for general's powers, of some strike powers will be weakened, so, entire armor/damage balance will be kept.

As for assault rifles and machine guns, there is the point that such units can assist anti-armor units to bring tank destruction slightly faster. During a heavy assault, you want as much concentrated fire as possible, and that includes concentrated support even from machine guns and assault rifles. This isn't actually a big deal but it is a valid point.

Are you joking? Ranger must fire for 5 minutes to bring one Tank Hunter missile damage to a tank. Is it so significant in combat?
There is another thing: antiinfantry units lock on tanks and ignore infantry when using "Attack Move" command.

That aside, strategy means micro, and removing micro mitigates strategic effort, blurring the line between newbie and professional.

Vice versa: newbie likes to click; professional likes to get advantage by another means: to be in time in right place with right forces. Good example of strategy with no micro - chess. Play Chessmaster 9000 and see that there is no matter how fast you click. This strategy was invented in ancient India and stays popular even nowdays. Such companies as Westwood, EA and Blizzard can just envy to such long life and popularity. Another example - ancient chinese "Go", which is also known as "Points". It is much more interesting than CnC3 and with no micro. It would be good to create something like real time chess with modern graphics and sound, with free game space (no cells) but with the same game logic.

Anyway, have you looked into the issue I brought up with the Spectre some time ago where it auto-selects for all human players regardless of who called it? I know you mentioned you'd look into and possibly fix it, but I wonder if you've gotten anywhere with that. I would try it myself but WorldBuilder doesn't want to cooperate when I tell it to import scripts.

I decided do not to torture myself and cut out Spectre from the game.

Edited by Creator, 15 February 2010 - 02:20 PM.

[Casojin]

I decided do not to torture myself and cut out Spectre from the game.

Whaaa....no more Specter Gunship?
It's one of the best damage dealing power (though difficult to use).
Is there anything to compensate for it (even AC-150 Vulcan Gunship is removed)?

[gundamwen]

that is odd. i dont know how that is possible :/ firewall isnt the one windows isnt that stupid how long do you leave it on when patching? i remember that it takes some time.

Sorry for the late reply, I leave it overnight and check it next morning, it is still in the same position. hahaha, Does it take that long??

[fieldwings]

I decided do not to torture myself and cut out Spectre from the game.

OK, wow, I didn't expect that at all, especially since you already cut the AC-150; that was a fun unit itself, it didn't need to be cut. Are you going to replace the Spectre with anything?

Actually, I do have one other issue; why remove the ECM turret upgrade from Emperors? I can see from the Shaitan, I always put speaker towers on those anyway (so does the AI), but Emperors? It's a useful upgrade for those, lets you power down a base defense or unit and shoot it, both with one unit, at close range. That might be considered OP but the Emperor has no AA option, so it can still be countered. Hell, you even enabled the AI to use that turret.

Speaking of the AI, any chance you'll enable the AI to use Red Arrows/Super Red Arrows? They never do, not in any version that they're in the mod. They also don't seem to want to research Camo Netting for the Chemical General's base defenses or Radar Vans, and they don't research Gas Warheads, either.

Edited by fieldwings, 15 February 2010 - 09:13 PM.

[gundamwen]

Creator, please add more flexible AI for the Computer, because i want to see the computer become more trickier, i believe that will make the Human vs AI games much more interesting. (again, just an idea).

Edited by gundamwen, 16 February 2010 - 12:45 AM.

[Casojin]

AI in ZH is too simple to make them use tricks and human tactics. They can use some tactic if you script it properly but they're still limited to simple attack and defend command.

[Creator]

Is there anything to compensate for it (even AC-150 Vulcan Gunship is removed)?

I'm thinking about compensation now.

Actually, I do have one other issue; why remove the ECM turret upgrade from Emperors?

All other addons are more useful:
- Need repairs - propaganda addon.
- Need to take out defenses - sniper addon
- Need to kill infantry - flamethrower addon
- Need to counter artillery - roof addon
ECM does not fit to any tactical situation. Even when players fight tanks with Emperors, they prefere sniper cannons. An addition, it takes time for ECM to disable its target. This time is enough for Emperor to destroy enemy vehicle or damage it seriously. So, ECM is not very powerful in this case. It can be useful for Helix only because it does not bring much damage with its main gun.

Speaking of the AI, any chance you'll enable the AI to use Red Arrows/Super Red Arrows? They never do, not in any version that they're in the mod. They also don't seem to want to research Camo Netting for the Chemical General's base defenses or Radar Vans, and they don't research Gas Warheads, either.

I'll try to implement it.

[Su8perkillr]

Well, you forgot about attacking a group of tanks. then ECM is handy. you could jam the group with some micr- wait you dont like microing.

[Casojin]

ECM is not very useful for Emperor Tank as Creator stated. The tank cannon would've destroyed the targeted vehicle before it can be disabled, which would be a waste (they can't target separately when you click a single target and it would target the same unit anyway when attack-move is used).

[Su8perkillr]

:/ thats sad.

[dcesarec]

I think that every unit and defense structure should have "hold fire" and "fire at will" buttons.In base defense rush they attack buildings automatically,and sometimes you wanna capture those buildings.Same thing with units.

[Creator]

Fixed errors:

- AF general: SLID gave range bonus to F-16 only, but highlighted all aircrafts. Fixed. It will highlight F-16 only from now on.
- Cyber general: Laser Missiles upgrade description was corrected.
- Laser general: Bullet hit sound was played when Microwave tank attacked infantry. Fixed.
- Laser general: Vehicles could not build drones if laser drone was built and killed then. Fixed.
- GLA: Groups of demo traps could be built on buildings. Fixed.
- GLA: If you selected buggy with another units, guard button disappeared. Fixed.
- Toxin general: Acid from Demo Traps destroyed all other nearby Demo Traps. Fixed.
- Stealth general: Kill Radars general's power destroyed buildings with 0% completion state. Fixed.
- Demo general: Radar Van Kill Fakes ability destroyed buildings with 0% completion state. Fixed.
- Demo general: Minefield geometry was corrected: minefield was 2 times bigger, than 3D model shown during building. Fixed.

Balance changes:

- All: Money generators were limited for everybody. You can now build no more than 6 Supply Drop Zones, no more than 6 Black Markets, no more than 4 Internet Centers and no more than 16 hackers. Supply Centers stayed unlimited.
- All: Paradrop and ambush general's powers were strengthed for all generals. They drop more troops (more vehicles). Missile troopers were added to all infantry paradrops and ambushes (except demo general because his rebels can explode).
- AF general: F-35 damage was lowered by 10%
- SW general: Dozed Drop (general's power) was moved to Rank 3.
- Laser general: Microwave Beam (general's power) does not damage vehicles and buildings any more. It acts like microwave tank now: disables buildings and kills infantry.
- Laser general: Laser Strike (general's power) was weakened by 25%.
- Laser general: Electricity Net connection (general's power) was moved to Rank 3 and strengthed: it gives 24 power points for 2 minutes.
- All China: Neutron Bomb (general's power) effect radius was lowered by 25%.
- All China: Frenzy was strengthed: if gives 50%, 100% and 200% damage bonus now.
- Demo general: Mine deployment general's power. Mine deployment time was increased 2 times and mines can be destroyed when under construction.
- Demo general: Demoralize general's power works instantly now.
- Toxin general: Emergency Repair was moved to 1st rank.
- Stealth general: Demo traps deployment general's power was removed.
- Stealth general: Fake units were moved to rank 1.
- Stealth general: Kill Radars general's power reload time was increased by 25%. Also, it has become harmful for your own army because it can kill your own radars now.

Other changes:

- All USA: Specter Gunship was removed.
- AF general: Engines upgrade effected F-16. But it caused negative effect: F-16 flew into AA defenses attack area. It was fixed: F-16 is no longer effectes by this upgrade.
- Laser general: MTHEL can switch its weapon: missiles only / aircrafts only.
- Laser general: Aurora bomb has new graphical effect now and it explodes without delay.
- Laser general: Burton deploys laser charges now. Difference is in graphics only.
- All China: Satellite Hask III is limited now: no more than 1.
- All China: Black Lotus Magnetic field ability becomes available only after purchasing Magnetic Bomb general's power.
- Infantry general: Wheeled dragon tank was added.
- Tank general: Shaitan has got Force Field. It gives invulnerability, but kills Shitan slowly. Field can not be turned off. Force Field becomes available after purchasing general's ability.
- Tank general: Carpet Bomb general's power was replaced with Force Field. It unlocks ability for Shaitan.
- All GLA: Technical Training general's power was removed.
- All GLA: Stimulators general's power was removed.
- All GLA: Defense Sites building was remade in order to reduce micro management. You needed to put Defense Site and upgrade it then. It required 5 clicks per unit. Now you can build all 4 upgraded Defense Sites. It requires 3 or 4 clicks in different situations.
- All GLA: Artillery Defense Site requires Black Market instead of 2nd rank now.
- Toxin general: New general's power - Acid Contamination. It works like Poison Contamination, but creates acid field. Available at rank 3.
- Demo general: Rebel is armed with hand grenades instead of AK-47.
- Demo general: Worker can build groups of 4 minefields. It lowers micro management.

Edited by Creator, 20 February 2010 - 09:16 AM.

[Su8perkillr]

:/ dont know what to say. most things i dislike of what you are changing. couldnt you just release this one apart from all other contra mod numbers, and make the other one crash less? because everything is starting to go bad now. people start to dislike it, and people hate the crashes. just making the crashes go away would make me happy (even if it took you a year killing them)

[gundamwen]

I don't know other things, Shaitan got force field that make it invulnerable ，but the field will kill the tank itself slowly, it that what you mean ?? Creator. but why the field can't be turn on/off manually, how slow that field will kill the tank ? 2 hours?? 3 hours ?? half hour?? 15mins？？ that means i will have to fix every single Shaitan tank once a while.

Wheeled dragon tank was added??? I thought the IG already has Wheeled Dragon tank.

Please, don't limit the Money generators, that is the first real bad idea you have, Large amount of money will make me feel secure and feel free to build as many units as i want. Don't make it like RA3, the only reason i hate about Red Alert 3 is the Money issue, in the later game, i can't do anything, because i don't have money. So, could you please cancel that change, i will appreciate it.

Besides that , every other changes are ok with me.

Edited by gundamwen, 19 February 2010 - 08:05 PM.

[dcesarec]

- All: Money generators were limited for everybody. You can now build no more than 6 Supply Drop Zones, no more than 6 Black Markets, no more than 4 Internet Centers and no more than 16 hackers. Supply Centers stayed unlimited.

I only dislike this, later in game when supply zones are empty, you need good backup, this will slow the game and i dont like it specially for china infantry general, i use hackers in game for fight and for gather money very often, i use 1-2 per crawler,and/or in garissonable buildings, this will forbid me doing that. I have idea, make them limited at rank 1 and 2 on 6 Supply Drop Zones, no more than 6 Black Markets, no more than 4 Internet Centers and no more than 16 hackers. At rank 3 double the number, and finally at rank 5 tripple the number. So still limited, but not so much.

[Casojin]

I hate the limit too (the rate of income is already slowed). I don't want C&C turns into Starcraft or Warcraft. Without such things, there can be no big battle during late game (strategy and tactic can still be implemented with big army if player is skilled enough). Combined this with the double build-time, I think Contra 008 is continuing to lose its attractiveness. Tank General would've been dead with limited resources like that (rank 3 Tank Gen needs steady income to constantly produce his army for full effectiveness).

Most other balancing issues (and the micro-reducing ones) are quite ok from what I've read.

I have an idea for F16XL after the engine upgrade. It could use Aurora logic. It flies at target with normal speed and launches missiles. Once the missiles are launched, the jet switches to upgraded engine to run away from harm. This way, the jet wouldn't overshoot its target when trying to attack.

[Su8perkillr]

creator, why dont you listen to the public, and just want to make a starcraft mod with units of this age in sage engine? just go make another mod if you want that