I've rescinded my opinion of Noldor Warriors being true slave units since they won't be controlled. However, I still think their primary function should be alongside the powerful Elven Lords. I don't know if its codeable but for them to be controllable but always within a radius of their corresponding hero. For example if they are attached to Elrond they could do whatever within a radius of him as they normally do but if he starts moving they will move with him if they almost fall out of the radius.
Or if that's impossible they get spawned with the hero as some kind of special summon that lasts as long as the hero lives. Through lore the main Elvish lands that fought in the WotR were from Lothlorien and Mirkwood. Out of those two I only see Noldor being in Lothlorien as attendants of Galadriel and Celeborn. This is why I mostly see them as being guards. I just think Noldor Warriors should be in a very special place. Also, I don't want Galadhrim being regular since they at best marginalize one unit and at worst two. I just don't see too much of that amongst Elves unless its in Mirkwood since they are not as well equipped.
Galadhrim Warriors & Noldor Warriors
Started by isledebananas, Jan 08 2010 05:47 AM
28 replies to this topic
#23
Kraft Singles
-
- Members
-
- 10 posts
Posted 13 January 2010 - 05:07 PM
The fact that Elves don't really have a very strong, late game melee unit is actually a plus, imo.
You don't want the factions to mirror each other. They don't all need one elite archer unit, one elite melee, etc. You have to give each faction strengths and weakness. Rohan in the first bfme was a great example of this. Horrible infantry but amazing cavalry. Their infantry unit was barely worth producing.
Anyway, back on topic.
Elves are borderline overpowered at the moment. Tons of heroes, two eagles, very powerful late game units make it easy to dominate the battlefeild. Why give them an elite melee unit? You have to play to their strengths. So here is my proposition.
1) Increase the price on Ghaladrim Warriors and make them the Elven elite unit. Make the price 1500 and make 3 (or four. I haven't decided yet) battalions buildable. Make them a "heavy" unit. Meaning that they can withstand quite a bit of damage before dying. Make it so that they are a good "all around" unit. Meaning that they won't do as much damage as mirkwood archers, but they'll do a decent amount. The benefit of buying Ghaladrim Warriors is that you now have 3 battalions of very strong troops with decent arrows and decent melee. Just the sort of nicely balanced unit I'd love to use as the elves.
2) Make Lothlorien archers benefit more from the upgrades. This is really important, as it makes them useful early game and late game. Make their damage output slightly higher with each level, make them benefit more from silverthorn arrows, etc. If possible, give them a unique upgrade. Call it "Special Training (Something along those lines, but way less stupid sounding..) Make it a Level 3 erogion forge purchase for 2500. When purchased, you can upgrade lothlorien archers with it. This increases their line of sight, damage and accuracy (still weak health though) Also, make Elven upgrades more expensive.
3) Noldor Warriors still NEED to be in the game. They are just far too awesome looking to leave out. Here is my proposal.
Make the Noldor Warriors elite swordsman.
Have a specific building for producing Noldor Warriors. (ie, some sort of large statue) Make it REALLY expensive, like 10 000 at least. When built, it will produce a very slow and constant stream of Noldor Warriors free of charge. So, 1 battalion every 5 - 10 mins.
Only allow players to build one of these structures.
If the structure is destroyed (It should have fairly decent health) then the player can no longer build Noldor Warriors.
4) Make Mirkwood archers only available from a level 3 barracks. Reduce their health slightly.
What will this do?
1) Making Ghaladrim Warriors the elite, expensive unit will force the player to use Lothlorion (Or Mirkwood) archers as a backup. It will also ensure that players use their Ghaladrim Warriors wisely.
2) Increasing the power of Lothlorien Archers late game will ensure that they are used on the front lines of battle. They should be given some halfway decent armor, so that they can withstand a bit of damage from cavalry or other units flanking them.
3) This new building for Noldor Warriors will ensure that players have a few battalions of VERY strong and VERY effective swordsmen late game. It'll really help to combat the other elite units rushing Elven Archers (ie, Uruk-Hai)
Note: If it is too much work to create an entirely new building... Just use the normal heroic statue. The Noldor Warriors will be produced from there only after a very expensive upgrade has been purchased. Once this upgrade is purchase, the statue gets a new skin, grows to a larger size (slightly) and now produces a steady stream of Noldor Warriors. Upgrade can only be purchased at one building. Once the building is lost, the upgrade can no longer be purchased at all.
4) Mirkwood Archers and Lothlorien Archers should have similar roles, but very different strenghts/weaknesses. Players should have to choose between supporting their army with Lothlorien Archers or with Mirkwood Archers. The advantages and weaknesses are as followed.
Lothlorien Archers
Advantages:
-Producible early game.
-With upgrades they will be strong late-game
-Higher health than mirkwood archers
-Cheap Early Game
Disadvantages
-Not as much damage output as Mirkwood Archers
-Becomes expensive late game
-Heavy Armor removes stealth ability
Mirkwood Archers
Advantages:
-Long line of Sight
-Higher Damage Output
-Faster rate of fire (perhaps. Depending on balance issues)
Disadvantages:
-Only available late game
-Lower health and lack of heavy armor makes them more vulnerable to cavalry and infantry flanking.
-Long buildtime
So now the player has two very different archer units, one well rounded elite unit, one elite sword unit that is only available VERY late game.
Oh, and as for the Elves basic swordsmen... They should only be used as meat shields for the archers, or as early game rush units. Late game, archers will be protected by cavalry, Ghaladrim, or Noldor.
You don't want the factions to mirror each other. They don't all need one elite archer unit, one elite melee, etc. You have to give each faction strengths and weakness. Rohan in the first bfme was a great example of this. Horrible infantry but amazing cavalry. Their infantry unit was barely worth producing.
Anyway, back on topic.
Elves are borderline overpowered at the moment. Tons of heroes, two eagles, very powerful late game units make it easy to dominate the battlefeild. Why give them an elite melee unit? You have to play to their strengths. So here is my proposition.
1) Increase the price on Ghaladrim Warriors and make them the Elven elite unit. Make the price 1500 and make 3 (or four. I haven't decided yet) battalions buildable. Make them a "heavy" unit. Meaning that they can withstand quite a bit of damage before dying. Make it so that they are a good "all around" unit. Meaning that they won't do as much damage as mirkwood archers, but they'll do a decent amount. The benefit of buying Ghaladrim Warriors is that you now have 3 battalions of very strong troops with decent arrows and decent melee. Just the sort of nicely balanced unit I'd love to use as the elves.
2) Make Lothlorien archers benefit more from the upgrades. This is really important, as it makes them useful early game and late game. Make their damage output slightly higher with each level, make them benefit more from silverthorn arrows, etc. If possible, give them a unique upgrade. Call it "Special Training (Something along those lines, but way less stupid sounding..) Make it a Level 3 erogion forge purchase for 2500. When purchased, you can upgrade lothlorien archers with it. This increases their line of sight, damage and accuracy (still weak health though) Also, make Elven upgrades more expensive.
3) Noldor Warriors still NEED to be in the game. They are just far too awesome looking to leave out. Here is my proposal.
Make the Noldor Warriors elite swordsman.
Have a specific building for producing Noldor Warriors. (ie, some sort of large statue) Make it REALLY expensive, like 10 000 at least. When built, it will produce a very slow and constant stream of Noldor Warriors free of charge. So, 1 battalion every 5 - 10 mins.
Only allow players to build one of these structures.
If the structure is destroyed (It should have fairly decent health) then the player can no longer build Noldor Warriors.
4) Make Mirkwood archers only available from a level 3 barracks. Reduce their health slightly.
What will this do?
1) Making Ghaladrim Warriors the elite, expensive unit will force the player to use Lothlorion (Or Mirkwood) archers as a backup. It will also ensure that players use their Ghaladrim Warriors wisely.
2) Increasing the power of Lothlorien Archers late game will ensure that they are used on the front lines of battle. They should be given some halfway decent armor, so that they can withstand a bit of damage from cavalry or other units flanking them.
3) This new building for Noldor Warriors will ensure that players have a few battalions of VERY strong and VERY effective swordsmen late game. It'll really help to combat the other elite units rushing Elven Archers (ie, Uruk-Hai)
Note: If it is too much work to create an entirely new building... Just use the normal heroic statue. The Noldor Warriors will be produced from there only after a very expensive upgrade has been purchased. Once this upgrade is purchase, the statue gets a new skin, grows to a larger size (slightly) and now produces a steady stream of Noldor Warriors. Upgrade can only be purchased at one building. Once the building is lost, the upgrade can no longer be purchased at all.
4) Mirkwood Archers and Lothlorien Archers should have similar roles, but very different strenghts/weaknesses. Players should have to choose between supporting their army with Lothlorien Archers or with Mirkwood Archers. The advantages and weaknesses are as followed.
Lothlorien Archers
Advantages:
-Producible early game.
-With upgrades they will be strong late-game
-Higher health than mirkwood archers
-Cheap Early Game
Disadvantages
-Not as much damage output as Mirkwood Archers
-Becomes expensive late game
-Heavy Armor removes stealth ability
Mirkwood Archers
Advantages:
-Long line of Sight
-Higher Damage Output
-Faster rate of fire (perhaps. Depending on balance issues)
Disadvantages:
-Only available late game
-Lower health and lack of heavy armor makes them more vulnerable to cavalry and infantry flanking.
-Long buildtime
So now the player has two very different archer units, one well rounded elite unit, one elite sword unit that is only available VERY late game.
Oh, and as for the Elves basic swordsmen... They should only be used as meat shields for the archers, or as early game rush units. Late game, archers will be protected by cavalry, Ghaladrim, or Noldor.
#24
Arveanor
-
- Members
-
- 83 posts
Posted 13 January 2010 - 09:13 PM
Kraft singles, you have a very elaborate and well-thought out post(or it at least appears as such), and I hate to place any criticism on it, but theirs a serious problem in your comparison of the two archer types. Higher damage and possibly faster rate of fire and stealth, not to mention greater range and vision, are all the things important to archers, health is a minor aid in close quarters, but naturally the idea is to use a meatshield to soak up all the damage so your archers don't even worry about how much health they have, so really I wouldn't see a need to use Lorien archers over Mirkwood archers. I agree with the idea, but not the implementation.
If mirkwoods had more damage with a slower rate of fire, such that they had a lower dps than lorien archers, and had a greater vision range with slightly better arrow range, as well as more damage to structures, I can see how the roles would gain clarity. Mirkwood archers could be equipped with fire arrows and would be used as scouts, they wouldn't be able to hold their own in combat, nor would they deal as much damage to soldiers as lorien archers would. Mirkwoods would, however, take buildings down quicker with their fire arrows, allowing them to move into enemy territory, find their target, and quickly take it out.
The new comparison would look like this:
Archers of Mirkwood
Advantages:
-High damage
-Large field of vision
-Faster movement speed
-Stealth
-Longer attack range
-Fire arrows for destroying buildings
-Possibly a fire-arrow ability that sets a small area on fire, to help destroy buildings
Disadvantages:
-Low rate of fire, resulting in lower dps then lorien archers
-Low health
-Expensive
-Slow build rate
Archers of Lorien
Advantages:
-High dps
-silverthorn arrows, for added damage to infantry
-Higher health
-cheaper
-fast build rate
-'leadership' bonus when nearby melee units are taking damage
-faster rate of fire
Disadvantages:
-Slower
-No stealth
-Less vision
-Less attack range
-Poor at destroy buildings
I took a bit of liberty with their abilities, but I felt both were simple abilities that made sense, and would help each one fulfill their roles better. As for the fire arrows with the mirks, I'm not sure if that feels right, but it helps them conduct raids.
If mirkwoods had more damage with a slower rate of fire, such that they had a lower dps than lorien archers, and had a greater vision range with slightly better arrow range, as well as more damage to structures, I can see how the roles would gain clarity. Mirkwood archers could be equipped with fire arrows and would be used as scouts, they wouldn't be able to hold their own in combat, nor would they deal as much damage to soldiers as lorien archers would. Mirkwoods would, however, take buildings down quicker with their fire arrows, allowing them to move into enemy territory, find their target, and quickly take it out.
The new comparison would look like this:
Archers of Mirkwood
Advantages:
-High damage
-Large field of vision
-Faster movement speed
-Stealth
-Longer attack range
-Fire arrows for destroying buildings
-Possibly a fire-arrow ability that sets a small area on fire, to help destroy buildings
Disadvantages:
-Low rate of fire, resulting in lower dps then lorien archers
-Low health
-Expensive
-Slow build rate
Archers of Lorien
Advantages:
-High dps
-silverthorn arrows, for added damage to infantry
-Higher health
-cheaper
-fast build rate
-'leadership' bonus when nearby melee units are taking damage
-faster rate of fire
Disadvantages:
-Slower
-No stealth
-Less vision
-Less attack range
-Poor at destroy buildings
I took a bit of liberty with their abilities, but I felt both were simple abilities that made sense, and would help each one fulfill their roles better. As for the fire arrows with the mirks, I'm not sure if that feels right, but it helps them conduct raids.
#25
Kraft Singles
-
- Members
-
- 10 posts
Posted 13 January 2010 - 09:45 PM
Ah, indeed you are right. My final thoughts on the matter then are this.
Because the Elves are losing the Ents, this puts them at a bit of a loss concerning siege. I understand that they are getting some sort of ballista thing? In any case, why not have the Mirkwood archers fire arrows do quite a lot of damage to buildings (but not very much to units). Nowhere near a catapult or battering ram, but enough that three or four groups could take down a farm or something relatively quickly. Or is this even possible? I'm unsure as to how the code works.
In any event, Arveanor is right. Make Lothlorien archers the heavy, fighting units. Make Mirkwood archers a raiding sort of unit that is helpful during siege.
P.S. The other option is to give Mirkwood Archers some sort of "wounding arrow" ability. This will make them very helpful when fighting against monsters, heroes, etc.
Because the Elves are losing the Ents, this puts them at a bit of a loss concerning siege. I understand that they are getting some sort of ballista thing? In any case, why not have the Mirkwood archers fire arrows do quite a lot of damage to buildings (but not very much to units). Nowhere near a catapult or battering ram, but enough that three or four groups could take down a farm or something relatively quickly. Or is this even possible? I'm unsure as to how the code works.
In any event, Arveanor is right. Make Lothlorien archers the heavy, fighting units. Make Mirkwood archers a raiding sort of unit that is helpful during siege.
P.S. The other option is to give Mirkwood Archers some sort of "wounding arrow" ability. This will make them very helpful when fighting against monsters, heroes, etc.
Edited by Kraft Singles, 13 January 2010 - 09:47 PM.
#26
Arveanor
-
- Members
-
- 83 posts
Posted 13 January 2010 - 10:13 PM
Ah, indeed you are right. My final thoughts on the matter then are this.
Because the Elves are losing the Ents, this puts them at a bit of a loss concerning siege. I understand that they are getting some sort of ballista thing? In any case, why not have the Mirkwood archers fire arrows do quite a lot of damage to buildings (but not very much to units). Nowhere near a catapult or battering ram, but enough that three or four groups could take down a farm or something relatively quickly. Or is this even possible? I'm unsure as to how the code works.
In any event, Arveanor is right. Make Lothlorien archers the heavy, fighting units. Make Mirkwood archers a raiding sort of unit that is helpful during siege.
P.S. The other option is to give Mirkwood Archers some sort of "wounding arrow" ability. This will make them very helpful when fighting against monsters, heroes, etc.
Fire arrows do more damage to structures already, I'm pretty sure, and the idea was, as you said, to help them destroy resource structures to cripple the enemy, it wouldn't be a formal siege by any means, but it would certainly give the elves an edge, and a high movement speed would ensure they don't easily get caught.
As I was writing that I had a thought, what about allowing Mirkwood archers to switch to pikes? they wouldn't be particularly effective pikemen, not nearly as good as mithlond sentries, mind you, but it would be a massive help when dealing with enemy cavalry.
I understand how this could be OP, but it could be easily balanced to make sure their weaker archeres and pikemen, but then they might become inneffective entirely, so maybe this is a bad idea, but a weaker pike unit capable of stealth may work better...
#27
ttandchotmail
-
- Project Team
-
- 849 posts
title available
- Location:Oz
Posted 13 January 2010 - 10:38 PM
G'day guys
Got to say you both have good arguments
All I can say is that if your only forge gets taken out you can't build noldor warriors until you build another. a level 3 forge is a requirement of building them.
2 battalions of noldor warriors can now join together just like they did in bfme1 so the limit of how many a player can build will probably be an even number most likely 4.
Most likely to not have them overpowered the amount of soldiers per battalion will be reduced.
I would like to see the mirkwood archers turned into a more faction specific unit. A kind of sniper unit. Making them stealth near trees of course and only unstealth to shoot a strong volley once then turn invisible again. They would be visible for 3-5 seconds. But stealth in general is a great way to give an rts a bit more depth to the game. Sadly not used much at all in bfme2. The only unit that appears to have any luck with it is thanduil. Making more units use a good stealth option means more units will need good ways to counter this, giving the players more ways to play is always fun
Got to say you both have good arguments
All I can say is that if your only forge gets taken out you can't build noldor warriors until you build another. a level 3 forge is a requirement of building them.
2 battalions of noldor warriors can now join together just like they did in bfme1 so the limit of how many a player can build will probably be an even number most likely 4.
Most likely to not have them overpowered the amount of soldiers per battalion will be reduced.
I would like to see the mirkwood archers turned into a more faction specific unit. A kind of sniper unit. Making them stealth near trees of course and only unstealth to shoot a strong volley once then turn invisible again. They would be visible for 3-5 seconds. But stealth in general is a great way to give an rts a bit more depth to the game. Sadly not used much at all in bfme2. The only unit that appears to have any luck with it is thanduil. Making more units use a good stealth option means more units will need good ways to counter this, giving the players more ways to play is always fun
No chance of returning....Zero chance of surviving....Well!? When do we get started?
#28
isledebananas
-
- Members
-
- 182 posts
Posted 13 January 2010 - 11:03 PM
Both the base Lorien troops need a buff in my opinion. Not so much to the point that they rival Uruks in health but more than they do now. Perhaps equal to that of Gondor troops. However, they should naturally have some of the fastest attack rates of all units. The main thing though should be that they get the best bonuses from upgrades such as FB and HA since Noldor are purported the best craftsmen and warriors naturally they should get the best equipment.
Galadhrim I still believe should be the elite of Lorien with superior stats all around. However, perhaps not much superior in melee combat than the swordsmen. The Noldor Warriors would be the ones excelling in that area with higher damage, armor, and hp. Galadhrim would be more about speed both movement and attack allowing them to go to wherever they are needed in battle quickly. My idea for Noldor stems back to me seeing them as more Guards of important figures. They should be able to just sit there with their hero through a lot of trouble and deal it out as well. It also goes back to the battle at the beginning of FotR with them just standing there holding the line and knocking everything out that came close. Galadhrim wouldn't be as good for sitting their taking damage as even other "elite" hordes. That I think is reflective of what we saw at Helm's Deep once the Uruks closed in on them they went down somewhat fast.
I think that if the Noldor are spawned at lvl2 alongside the heroes Galadriel, Celeborn, and Elrond then it makes them somewhat unique. Also their fate would be kind of tied to their hero(note this is not slave horde). If the hero they came with dies then they would disappear similar to a summon and if they die they can't come back until the hero they are tied to is also respawned. This would I think place limits on them which reflect their strength as the strongest horde units in game.
Galadhrim I still believe should be the elite of Lorien with superior stats all around. However, perhaps not much superior in melee combat than the swordsmen. The Noldor Warriors would be the ones excelling in that area with higher damage, armor, and hp. Galadhrim would be more about speed both movement and attack allowing them to go to wherever they are needed in battle quickly. My idea for Noldor stems back to me seeing them as more Guards of important figures. They should be able to just sit there with their hero through a lot of trouble and deal it out as well. It also goes back to the battle at the beginning of FotR with them just standing there holding the line and knocking everything out that came close. Galadhrim wouldn't be as good for sitting their taking damage as even other "elite" hordes. That I think is reflective of what we saw at Helm's Deep once the Uruks closed in on them they went down somewhat fast.
I think that if the Noldor are spawned at lvl2 alongside the heroes Galadriel, Celeborn, and Elrond then it makes them somewhat unique. Also their fate would be kind of tied to their hero(note this is not slave horde). If the hero they came with dies then they would disappear similar to a summon and if they die they can't come back until the hero they are tied to is also respawned. This would I think place limits on them which reflect their strength as the strongest horde units in game.
Edited by isledebananas, 13 January 2010 - 11:05 PM.
#29
Arveanor
-
- Members
-
- 83 posts
Posted 13 January 2010 - 11:18 PM
Yeah, I agree with isle, the function of noldor as a guard unit would give them a unique and interesting function while allowing them to be stronger units.
As for the regular units getting a buff, I think they should stay the same with, as you said, an added bonus from HA and FB should be in, but regularly I don't think they should have more health, their damage makes up for it. Also the elven upgrades ought to be more expensive.
As for the regular units getting a buff, I think they should stay the same with, as you said, an added bonus from HA and FB should be in, but regularly I don't think they should have more health, their damage makes up for it. Also the elven upgrades ought to be more expensive.
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users
