19 replies to this topic

[Damrod]

Since it does not appear that this topic has been put out there, I will make this suggestion as a side project.

Perhaps the Nazgul heroes could all have their own names. (As opposed to Nazgul #1, Nazgul #2 etc.) The powers, stats and skins and so forth would remain the same, but the names would be changed. This would make the Nazgul heroes all seem different even though they are not, and it would make them feel more like actual heroes, as apposed to how they feel now. (More like elite fortress units)

As for the names, I would suggest against using the names of who they were originally, just because they are no longer kings but servants of Souron. As such, I would suggest using the names from the Lord of the Rings card game. Each name sounds original and evil enough, yet still sound similar since they are all 'thralls of the one.' Here they are:






Anyhow, there is something that shouldn't take too much work and would be cool to see in the game. To my knowledge no other mod has used these names, so it would be both cool and original, plus it would dispel some of the generic feel that surrounds the nazgul heroes. Anyhow, there you go. Perhaps something to do while your bored.

Edited by Damrod, 15 January 2010 - 04:10 AM.

[isledebananas]

Those names are what Weta and the LotR movie production team assigned the Nazgul for names to differentiate them. They are in fact just Quenya for Nazgul #2-9. That is why the first word is all the same for them. I think its Quenya could be Sindarin, but I do know that it was some Elvish language. It would be weird in my opinion for them to have such a noble light sounding names considering who they are. Now if Namo could scrounge up the numbers uttered in Black Speech now then it might be interesting.

[khamulrulz]

they are fine as just nazgul - specialized names always sound too cheesy, like the games workshop names "the betrayer" etc. those role-playing cards are not canon, and also incorrect. there were only two nazgul in dol guldur, with khamul being the leader of the two. also, the only character to take the name lieutenant of morgul is gothmog (who may have been a ringwraith, or a black numenorean, although the movie shows him to be an orc, so he is an orc in the mod)

[Námo]

Those names are what Weta and the LotR movie production team assigned the Nazgul for names to differentiate them. They are in fact just Quenya for Nazgul #2-9. ...

As far as I know, those names were created by Decipher (the author of the LotR Trading Card Game - I did once collect a lot of those cards).
Etymology [Quenya]:
[Ulairë] Attëa = 2nd., Nelya(?) = 3rd. (3 = Nelde, so maybe Neldëa?), Cantëa= 4th., Lemenya(?) = 5th. (5 = Lempe, so maybe Lempëa?), Enquëa = 6th., Otsëa = 7th., Toldëa = 8th. and Nertëa = 9th.
See Quenya Numerals by Ryszard Derdzinski

... I think its Quenya could be Sindarin, but I do know that it was some Elvish language. It would be weird in my opinion for them to have such a noble light sounding names considering who they are. ...

Those names are in Quenya, the High-Elven language spoken by the Vanyar and the Noldor in Valinor.

In the Third Age, Sindarin had become the common language spoken by all the Elven people in the known part of Middle-earth: i.e. the Sindar (the Teleri who did not travel to Valinor), the Noldor (in exile) and even the Silvan Elves (the Elves of Mirkwood and the indigenous people of Lothlórien). Quenya in Middle-earth was retained only as a language of ancient lore.

So, if ever the Elves did need to reference the Nazgûl individually (which I doubt), it would be in Sindarin and not Quenya, and it certainly would NOT be in the form of numerals.

... Now if Namo could scrounge up the numbers uttered in Black Speech now then it might be interesting.

No, not as numbers, and not in the Black Speech ... there are much better ways

First: the Black Speech has several 'diatects':

• We know that the Orcs of Morgoth used some kind of 'Black Speech', among Tolkien linguists labelled 'Angband Black Speech' - but we only know that it once existed, not even a single word can with any certainty be traced back to this dialect.
• In the second Age Sauron devised the Black Speech proper, as a sort of 'common language' to be used by his subjects; such a common language would of course be of great value for him in his attempts to become the 'High King of Middle-earth' - as the very different peoples that he subjugated were prone to fight among each other. However, the 'Black Speech of Sauron' never became videly used (and probably had become obsolete at the end of Third Age). the Ring Inscription is the only surviving source we have concerning the proper Black Speech, and although an extended version exist (not published in the books) this is not enough to make 'names' for the Nazgûl.
• The Black Speech of the Orcs of Mordor (and of Orcs in general, though there must have been various local dialects) is known as 'Debased Black Speech' - the vocabulary is very limited, but samples can be seen in this post, this post and this post!

Second: it is possible to give the Nazgûl individual 'titles' (not names) which are both 'unique' and 'authentic', by using the Tongue of the Black Númenóreans, i.e. a (deducted) dialect of 'classic' Adûnaic:
In my opinion such names should comply to all of the following criteria:

• The names should be in the form of titles, and should not be proper names.
• The titles should be in accordance with the writings of Tolkien, especially with respect to all his linguistic works.
• The etymology should be rather 'vague' because that's the way Tolkien portrayed them, more a 'class of beings' than 'individuals' (see comment on the following quote).
• The names should be rather short and easy to recognize as Nazgûl (for reasons of gameplay)

To make a very long story short ... the naming of the Nazgûl is in my opinion a very difficult and delicate issue, and has of course been puzzling my mind for several years ... but for your comfort: I have found a very beautiful (linguistic) solution, it's just that I don't want to release those titles without all the lore that goes with it. Futhermore, I want this small work of mine to be a gift to Sûl, for some personal reasons, and as a tribute to all his unselfish contributions to the community ... So, when that work finished, and delivered, it will be up to him (and Nazgûl) to decide it's fate in relation to this mod.

they are fine as just nazgul - specialized names always sound too cheesy, like the games workshop names "the betrayer" etc. ...

I agree. The primary weapon of the Nazgûl (according to the lore) is FEAR ... and fear of something *unknown* is far more frightening than fear of something *known*, because in the last case you might know how to react to the fear. So, giving them specific names would make them less frightening.

I don't know the GW-names, but those names (from the role-playing game by Iron Crown Enterprises) that are widely used are simply ridiculous; we know that three of the Nazgûl are Black Númenóreans, but only one of those names is proper Adûnaic (the Tongue of the Númenóreans), and a female name. None of these names has any relation to Tolkien's works, and personally I find it an insult of a great and gifted artist to treat his works like that - moreover so, because there are plenty of room within his creation to make interpretations in different ways, also in relation to name-giving.

... the only character to take the name lieutenant of morgul is gothmog (who may have been a ringwraith, or a black numenorean, although the movie shows him to be an orc, so he is an orc in the mod)

Correct. Gothmog is originally the name of the Lord of Balrogs, High-Captain of Angband, Slayer of Fëanor, Fingon and Ecthelion. Tolkien would never reuse such an important name for just an ordinary orc; the best quess is that he was in fact a Nazgûl, but he could also have been a high ranking Black Númenórean, as you say, but we'll never know. As PJ for some unknown reason choose to portray him as an orc, and because of that appears so in the mod, I think the best we can do is to interpret that character as a Boldog.

[Nertea]

It's always funny to look at these, as they're where I got my user name from

[Hostile]

Namo, you are amazing. I'm glad you are here. Your explanation is clear and colorful.

[isledebananas]

Hmm well there is really no reason to give them individual names in my opinion. khamulrulz came up with a good idea for differentiation in his suggestions thread. However, if your going to give them to Sulherokkh that's fine and of course thanks to your great wealth of knowledge and skill.

I do agree with the naming criteria of the Nazgul. Making them titles similar to the Witch King, even though one of them is mentioned by name, certainly that fits the theme of corruption where they have forgotten what they once were. So your choosing Etymological vagueness for a thematic sense as well? Lastly, I suggested Black Speech as it made sense that they may have different names given them at least by Sauron or referred to by important Orc commanders. I assume for other races there would be really no discernible differences other than to be thorough on a lore sense, and even then only name differentiation possible by those who remembered them as living Men. So you chose the Black Numenorean dialect of Adunaic because they would in fact be more likely to have referred to Nazguls by individual titles as they may have had more interaction with Nazguls and be more inclined to "naming" than orcs?

[Sûlherokhh]

I am thrilled and excited, Námo. Properly naming the nazgûl is something i am looking forward to very much. Accordingly we may introduce a (slight) variation among the ringwraiths regarding their abilities, to make use of the shadows of their former human form yet make clear that in their current state they are primarily things used by Sauron. I wonder what of their traits you are basing their names on.

[Damrod]

Huh. Didn't know about the number thing. Still, what ever works with coolness. Just beware with the whole "shadow of their former selves" bit. Several mods I have seen have tried to make each Nazgul just like who they used to be only wearing black robes, including adding them to other factions. However, they are all ringwraiths now. However, adding a few powers to differentiate them would be cool beans too.

[Arthadan]

Interesting topic!

Starting with the source material we have:

- The Witch-king.
- Khamûl the Easterling.

So we can infer that Nazgûl's names should be an optional propper name and a mandatory "title".

Now, I wonder how was called the Witch-king before he earned his name ruling Angmar. He was probably just another unnamed Nazgûl... and then so should be all of them for the Free Peoples unless they did something to earned a name or have a distinguishable feature (quite probably Khamûl's foreign origin was clear when he became a Nazgûl, before his former shelf vanished completely). Even the Orcs do not refer to Nazgûl by any propper name, they are just creatures, monsters.

In my opinion, from a gaming perspective, it would be useful to name them only if they are going to have some difference (which would be cool!).

I don't know the GW-names, but those names (from the role-playing game by Iron Crown Enterprises) that are widely used are simply ridiculous; we know that three of the Nazgûl are Black Númenóreans, but only one of those names is proper Adûnaic (the Tongue of the Númenóreans), and a female name. None of these names has any relation to Tolkien's works, and personally I find it an insult of a great and gifted artist to treat his works like that thumbsdownsmiley.gif - moreover so, because there are plenty of room within his creation to make interpretations in different ways, also in relation to name-giving.

About I.C.E. names, I would not dismiss them so lightly. The man behind them is David Salo, a professional linguist and the same guy Peter Jackson hired to translate his films into Tolkien languages. About using Tolkien's languages for their names, Tolkien never presents any direct linguistic evidence for the origins of Khamûl's name, which is presumably taken from his own alien Easterling language. One feature that stands out is the similarity of its first syllable to the eastern land of Khand, and it's conceivable that there's a connection between the two. So, it's perfectly possible that the rest did have names in their own languages, unknown in the Northwest.

A quick overview on I.C.E. names:


- Adûnaphel the Quiet: A corrupted Númenórean lady. It's not against the lore as far as I know. Name in Adunaic.
- Akôrahil (the Storm Lord, Sauron's hand in Harad): Another corrupted Númenórean lord. . Name in Adunaic.
- Dwar of Waw: This guy is a Wôlim and comes from Waaw (the Island of Dogs, in southermost Endor) and so his name is in a foreign language.
- Hoarmûrath of Dír: foreigner too
- Indûr Dawndeath: foreigner
- Khamûl the Eastreling: foreigner and canon
- Mûrazôr, The Witch-king: One of the three corrupted Númenóreans (and here you are your three). Name is not canon, but in propper Adunaic.
- Ren the Unclean (the Fire King, because he went mad and proclaimed himself a God, son of a sacred volcano): foreigner
- Ûvatha the Horseman: a Variag (another Easterling).

By the way and just for fun (from Wikipedia):
# Nâzgul is a girl's name of Persian origin, adopted in various Middle-eastern languages, meaning "Shy rose" or "delicate flower".
# Nazgul is also a Turkic female name popular in Central Asia, where Gul means a flower, and widely used for making female names: Gulzada, Gulmira, Gulnara, Gulnur, Nurgul, Aigul, Raushangul...etc.

[yams in a can]

Nazgul's name is a girls name !!!!

[isledebananas]

I did have some ideas for the Nazgul but it requires some changing of the existing abilities and some switching of lvl and palantir slot positions. I forget, exactly how many slots are available for hero abilities? Perhaps to save room on some heroes palantir slots we can remove auras on there and simply give some sort of effect under the hero to show they are giving off an aura. I remember there being some sort of circular effect with runes in the game I think it was whoever possessed the ring. In the hero purchase thing though the aura name and effect will be given. I think that's useful for those who haven't memorized auras.

I think all the Nazgul should have some unique abilities only to that Nazgul.
Lvl 1: Mount Horse?
Lvl 2: Dread Visage(aura) - gives slight fear to enemies and armor redux; no enemy hero leadership cancel
Lvl 4: Morgul Blade
Lvl 6: Screech - decreases enemy move and attack speed for some time.
Lvl 8: Mount Felbeast?
Lvl 10: Special unique ability for each Nazgul. I'll explain further at bottom

Witch King: I'll only list differences (could horse mount version look similar to felbeast mount version?)
Lvl 2: Dread Visage(aura) - prevents fear in allies and cause fear to enemies and armor redux plus cancels enemy hero auras
Lvl 6: Screech - his screech will be similar to Boromir's Horn of Gondor in addition to attack move speed redux.
Lvl 8: Mount Felbeast? - just changed level
Lvl 8: Witch King's Hour - huge damage to heroes, timer's reset, and reduces that heroes attack damage for a while
Lvl 10: Witch King's Strength - he takes heavily reduced damage from non-female units.

? - I put the question marks on the Nazgul mounts because I remember in a BFME 1 mod that mount was one ability that could be switched from foot-horse-felbeast. Mostly this is to save space but doesn't have to be done. It certainly would be trouble seeing as how the felbeast mount is too powerful early on. I don't know if it could be coded that the second half of the mount is only available at later levels but I doubt it. It isn't really necessary to save space though since dread visage being similar to an aura can be there without taking up a palantir spot.

* - Each Nazgul will have a unique ability as I said that aren't shared with their fellow Nazgul. I know the Nazgul are tough but I think they need a little power and uniqueness. These are just some abilities I think the Nazgul in general should possess, but obviously due to constrictions they can't all possess them. Some ideas I had are:
1. Black Breath - when activated units in a certain radius take constant damage(should be considerably more than Moria poison)
2. Shade - takes no damage for short while save from certain heroes
3. Life Drain - absorbs hp from a target units that replenishes the Nazgul's life.
4. Morgul Strength(passive) - anyone who attacks the Nazgul takes damage whether they are ranged or melee.
5. Morgul Speed - increases the movement and attack speed of the Nazgul. Adds area damage passive
6. Mind Shadow -when cast greatly increases enemy unit's chance to miss their attacks includes melee units(all in radius) maybe even attack damage reduction. Doesn't work on some heroes
7. Dark Touch(passive) - aura prevents enemy unit healing(fountain,ability, spell book, Elven) in a radius around the Nazgul, but not some heroes innate; passively increases his regen considerably
8. Dark Sorcery - first part decreases recharge time of this Nazgul's previous abilities, second part is either an aura or cast that works like an aura : it will increase allied spell damage in a radius or decrease enemy spell damage in a radius or both

[Damrod]

Interesting topic!

- Adûnaphel the Quiet: A corrupted Númenórean lady. It's not against the lore as far as I know. Name in Adunaic.
- Akôrahil (the Storm Lord, Sauron's hand in Harad): Another corrupted Númenórean lord. . Name in Adunaic.
- Dwar of Waw: This guy is a Wôlim and comes from Waaw (the Island of Dogs, in southermost Endor) and so his name is in a foreign language.
- Hoarmûrath of Dír: foreigner too
- Indûr Dawndeath: foreigner
- Khamûl the Eastreling: foreigner and canon
- Mûrazôr, The Witch-king: One of the three corrupted Númenóreans (and here you are your three). Name is not canon, but in propper Adunaic.
- Ren the Unclean (the Fire King, because he went mad and proclaimed himself a God, son of a sacred volcano): foreigner
- Ûvatha the Horseman: a Variag (another Easterling).

By the way and just for fun (from Wikipedia):
# Nâzgul is a girl's name of Persian origin, adopted in various Middle-eastern languages, meaning "Shy rose" or "delicate flower".
# Nazgul is also a Turkic female name popular in Central Asia, where Gul means a flower, and widely used for making female names: Gulzada, Gulmira, Gulnara, Gulnur, Nurgul, Aigul, Raushangul...etc.

Not bad, but I was hopping for something original and evil sounding. Though Khamul is an actual name, it isn't very evil sounding. Every time I hear it I get this mental picture of a black-robed camel with sun glasses smoking a cigaret. I should also point out that wraiths are NO LONGER who they were. Akorahil is no longer a king of Harad, so why would his name remain the same? I am thinking more along the lines of original names based solely on language. Like with the lord of the rings cards, even though the names were in elvish, they were uniform, unassuming and differentiated very little. As if each wraith was a clone. Think of it this way: if Frodo was turned into a wraith by his shoulder wound, would be have become "Frodo the Silent?" No, he would have become "Unnamed agent of evil, forever tormented by Souron." As such, since Ring Wraiths are only extensions of Souron's will, they should all have uniform names that are the product of this mod team's creativity. (Except the Witch King, since that is a title he earned as the leader of the nine) I liked the idea of naming them using the black speech, but I think that using their original human names would be a bad idea. Remember, these names are going to be read the most by the people playing the Mordor team, (who are essentially playing as Souron) so these names should probably be something he would refer to them as. Since they are his servants / slaves, it is unlikely that he would refer to any of them, save the Witch King, with proper names of standing. You know that I'm saying? I say we go with Namo's solution. A very cool concept in my opinion. Both original and evil!

P.S. I have seen pretty much all of those names before in other mods. Namely the RJ mod and the Third Age: Total War mod. It seems to me that originality is a big deal to this mod team, so I think we should come up with our own name ideas, as apposed to borrowing from other mods or using Wikipedia. (No offense)

P.P.S Power Idea: Black Dart. In the books, it says Faramir was taken out by a black dart that fell from the sky. I think it would be cool for a wraith to have this power, as basically a ranged morgul blade that he fires from atop his fell beast. That would be snazzy.

Edited by Damrod, 03 February 2010 - 08:12 PM.

[Arthadan]

It's true nonbody remembered their original names anymore and Mûrazôr became The Witch-king. But naming them just with numbers is boring! When you are playing with Mordor, you own the Nazgûl. It's sure there were not all the same for his Master Sauron. From this perspective, names make sense. There is a Black Speech vocabulary (Mordorian Orcish dialect) by David Salo which could be very handy. I hav it, so if someone need it just PM me.

Nice idea the black dart!

Edited by Arthadan, 03 February 2010 - 09:11 PM.

[Damrod]

Well, I still prefer Namo's concept of using titles for names instead of actual names. When you think about it, calling a Nazgul hero "The Lieutenant of Morgul" adds a bit of mystery to the hero, while at the same time giving them a don't-mess-with-this kind of feel. Similar to the tile: The Witch-King. Agreed, numbers are a bit boring, but I think the titles concept is an extremely good concept. As you said earlier, if we are going to name the Nazgul, we should name them all. As such, if the Witch-King's name is to remain the same, it stands to reason that the rest of the Nazgul should have titles as their names.

[Arthadan]

I was proposing to translate some of the tittles into Black Speech

For example, Orcs did not use "Barad-dûr", they use "Lugbúrz" (meaning the same, "Dark Tower"). So. It would make sense

Edited by Arthadan, 04 February 2010 - 07:30 AM.

[Damrod]

Ooooooh. Pardon my slowness. Yes, some of that would be cool too. (Tough I would like to understand at least some of what the title says)

-Edit

Adûnaphel the Quiet: A corrupted Númenórean lady. It's not against the lore as far as I know. Name in Adunaic.

I should point out that all the Nazgul were the nine ancient kings of men that received their rings from Souron. According to Tolkien lore, and lore of the time, a woman would not be in a position to receive one of these rings. Nothing against women here, it's just that a stand-alone queen is unheard of, and Souron, being his grand evil self, would not give his ring to a "weak" person. Or in this case, someone who would resist his pull. (If you will notice, women seem oddly untempted by ring power throughout the stories ) Plus, Tolkien had a high respect for women, as many men did at the time, and usually only potreyed them in a good light. As such, I find this concept rather against Tolkien Lore.

Edited by Damrod, 08 February 2010 - 05:13 PM.

[Emperor of the East]

Um, I looked on Nazgul's source material for this mod and this is what it has to say...

And also, Games-Workshop came out with titles for the Nazguls, but these ones have less potential than the "proper names" given by Iron Crown Enterprises.

The Tainted

The Dark Marshal

The Undying

The Shadow Lord

The Knight of Umbar

The Betrayer

The Dwimmerlaik

of these names, I have only seen the last one, and it is not used to name any Ringwraiths.....

[Sauron's eyes and ears]

The Witch-King and the 2nd chef (Khamul) are definatly two acarding to Unfinished Tales

[Námo]

I've taken up the issue of naming the Nazgûl in this topic in the Lore forum. For a short read, the resulting names can be found in this post.