105 replies to this topic

[Centurian128]

I had already asked about this on the first page. He said that he didn't want to include too many ships that are from what would probably be considered ancient times in the Star Wars universe. Though he is considering basing future ships off of some of those designs.

Hope it's okay that I answered for you Farseer.

[the_Farseer]

I had already asked about this on the first page. He said that he didn't want to include too many ships that are from what would probably be considered ancient times in the Star Wars universe. Though he is considering basing future ships off of some of those designs.

Hope it's okay that I answered for you Farseer.

Haha, no worries. If I was really upset about it I would just delete the post, since I have admin privileges

[suy' cuy ner vod]

so the mandalorian shotgun troops die faster than normal infantry. is it supposed to be like that?

[the_Farseer]

so the mandalorian shotgun troops die faster than normal infantry. is it supposed to be like that?

Nope. This is fixed in v 4. They aren't invincible by any means but they are much more resilient.

[Centurian128]

Oh, Farseer this is more a heads up than a request but Warb_Null just released his version of the Mandalorian Cruisers from the timeline vids. I was thinking you could mess around with the model for any ships to be based off of the design, if you're still thinking of doing that.

[the_Farseer]

Oh, Farseer this is more a heads up than a request but Warb_Null just released his version of the Mandalorian Cruisers from the timeline vids. I was thinking you could mess around with the model for any ships to be based off of the design, if you're still thinking of doing that.

Yeah, I saw that. It is a good model but for now I want to focus on ground units. The Mandos need more variety. I'm also working on adding animations to the Basilisk.

[Vithar-133]

Out of curiosity, I was wondering if it is possible to change what planets a faction has in GC.

I think that the New Republic owned Coruscant at this moment, right?

[the_Farseer]

Out of curiosity, I was wondering if it is possible to change what planets a faction has in GC.

I think that the New Republic owned Coruscant at this moment, right?

Yes, this is possible and actually quite easy. I just haven't spent a ton of time on GC yet. It will be in the next version though.

[Centurian128]

Yeah, I saw that. It is a good model but for now I want to focus on ground units. The Mandos need more variety. I'm also working on adding animations to the Basilisk.

Have you given any thought to the Death Watch tank from Jango Fett: Open Seasons? It looks like it would make for a pretty good anti-infantry platform. The light one from Summer, the first issue if I've got it right. The heavier one from Fall looks more a kin to a troop carrier.

[Mando'a Man]

If there was one thing to point out, it's that no one has thought to change the stormtroopers so they hold E-11's. not saying there isn't a mod or model including such, I just haven't seen it. If you could do this, you'd be fixing one the most unnoticed annoyances of eaw.

On an added note, anyone know what gun the stormtroopers are holding? don't recognize the blaster.

Edited by Mando'a Man, 20 March 2010 - 12:26 AM.

[the_Farseer]

I just downloaded this mod, and I must say I do like it a lot. However, a significant problem, in my opinion, is the HP of all ships bigger than fighters. I brought a Star Destroyer into battle and a few squadrons targetted it...and I mean a few, not, like, a dozen. Suddenly it has no shields and half of its HP is gone. I think all the ships corvette and up should get a major buff to HP and shields while starfighters get a minor nerf to damage to make things a bit more realistic and, well, playable. There's a point when low HP means you're just drowning the enemy in broken hulls. One more example- four Crusaders and two Reciprocators were undamaged in a corner of the skirmish map and a SD dropped in. All six ships immediately lost shields from the SD's guns, and two Crusaders blew up. By the time I finished a reinforcement ship they were all gone.

Seriously, the armor is paper mache' >.>

The SSD has been removed so no worries there. On that note though, corvette-class ships would probably crumple like paper mache' in the face of an Executor-class...just saying.

What types of squadrons were targeting your Star Destroyer? You have to realize that many fighters in the mod are armed with ion cannons, which are specifically designed to take out shields. For example, a squad of Y-wings and B-wings should be able to take out an ISD on their own. This is to make it necessary to provide a picket line of corvette-class ships. You should not be able to dominate the battlefield with one ship alone.

[the_Farseer]

I never said anything about an SSD >.> Normal Star Destroyer. In, literally, one second.

...yeah, I know. I play Phoenix Rising, so I'm used to type playing. In any case, I'm talking Low class Mando fighters, a mix of them but mostly normal fighters and not bombers. And besides, this was in one pass. I guess I didn't make that clear enough. but still. A *few* fighter squadrons should not be able to cripple a friggin SD in one pass, or even a dozen. Fighters are really not meant to be capital ship killers unless in very, very large numbers, or capital ships would be obsolete.

And for the record, the SSD is *not* overpowered. I've seen Lusankya lose three hardpoints to a level to space station. Have you even seen the Phoenix Rising one? THAT is a monster. Albeit a totally canon monster, as is the PR mission statement, but it would treat yours like a CR-90.

I apologize if I seem harsh, but to me it looked like you were glossing over my post and ignoring my points. There are some serious balancing issues here that I believe need to at least be considered.

Ok. I understand now where you said SD not SSD. I was confused because I generally refer to Star Destroyers as ISD's (Imperial Star Destroyer). It's all just semantics. To really address you issues, accurately:

Firstly, Phoenix Rising is a completely different type of mod than Rise of the Mandalorians. Their mission, as you know, is to create as close to cannon as possible gameplay and experience. I try to aim for cannonisisty as well, when I can but I often forgo that for better gameplay. Granted, "better" is a totally relative term. My idea of better gameplay is to avoid a scenario where a player, or AI, is doomed to failure, simply because they have only fighters or, conversely, where a player is guaranteed a victory simply because they have a ship that's one class up from the rest. Referring to cannon, it was fighters that disabled the Lusankya, killed both Death Stars and destroyed the Executor. A capable group of fighters would be able to also destroy an Imperial-class Star Destroyer (as they have time and time again). Alternately, the ISD ship is not designed to combat small fighters and, therefore, will most likely loose when pitted against them, without escort.

This type of scenario invites a greater depth of strategy by forcing the player to more closely examine their fleets before sending them to battle and provides a more tactical approach to reinforcing fleets (calling in specific types of ships at the right moment to aid those of another class). I think the problem you are experiencing isn't so much a deviation from ship-classes and balancing but is, rather, a rough transition from one mod to the next. My mod contains ship classes that must be carefully decided before a battle but those classes are laid out very differently from the PR mod. PR also has created a lot of custom classes for their mod. To explain:

My mod works as such:

Capital beats Frigate
Frigate beats Corvette
Corvette beats Fighter
Fighter beats Capital (and other fighters)


Phoenix Rising works more this way:

Super beats all
Capital beats all beneath
Frigate beats all beneath
Corvette beats all beneath
Fighter only beats other fighter and (custom)utility classes

This setup makes fighters effectively useless and renders Capital ships all but invulnerable. I'm not as familiar with PR as I am my own mod, obviously, so perhaps I'm wrong in that setup. Don't get my wrong either...the PR team has done an incredible job with their mod and I think it is one of the best mods out there, to date. I just prefer my style of gameplay over the one they have chosen. I am willing to make some changes though but it will not be anything that's a total overhaul.

[SpardaSon21]

Farseer, if you believe fighters are useless in PR, you haven't seen the damage a few full squadrons of bombers can do to capital ships. Also, most bombers in PR mount some anti-fighter weaponry, so they aren't exactly target practice for fighter pilots, they can shoot back, and frequently with much heavier weapons, hull, and shields (especially in the case of upgraded B-Wings and K-Wings, especially considering the K-Wings get access to shield-ignoring slugthrowers) than the fighters opposing them mount.

Oh, and Farseer, turbolasers have accuracy penalties against small ships such as corvettes, fighters, bombers, and possibly frigates, meaning they last longer than one would think, and considering damage dealt to shields does not transfer to hull if the shields fail from that impact, a squadron of fighters or bombers can last a long time against a single ISD firing wildly at it with its turbolasers, since each member has to be hit twice, once to bring down the shields and a second to destroy the strikecraft itself in order to be destroyed.

Also, ships in PR with squadrons have squadron costs and build times added to their own costs and build times in a reduced scale, so an ISD is extremely expensive in terms of credit cost and build time considering it has swarms of fighters in addition to its extensive weapons, armor, and shields. Enough independently-built fighters and bombers to destroy an ISD and its complement can be built cheaper and quicker than the ISD+squadrons can, so escort is definitely required for larger vessels. If that wasn't enough, try fighter-rushing in skirmish as the CSA in PR. If done right, you will have enough Mankvims and Preybirds to swarm your opponent and whittle down his stations and annihilate any built fighters and he will be helpless against his numerical inferiority.

[the_Farseer]

Farseer, if you believe fighters are useless in PR, you haven't seen the damage a few full squadrons of bombers can do to capital ships. Also, most bombers in PR mount some anti-fighter weaponry, so they aren't exactly target practice for fighter pilots, they can shoot back, and frequently with much heavier weapons, hull, and shields (especially in the case of upgraded B-Wings and K-Wings, especially considering the K-Wings get access to shield-ignoring slugthrowers) than the fighters opposing them mount.

Oh, and Farseer, turbolasers have accuracy penalties against small ships such as corvettes, fighters, bombers, and possibly frigates, meaning they last longer than one would think, and considering damage dealt to shields does not transfer to hull if the shields fail from that impact, a squadron of fighters or bombers can last a long time against a single ISD firing wildly at it with its turbolasers, since each member has to be hit twice, once to bring down the shields and a second to destroy the strikecraft itself in order to be destroyed.

Also, ships in PR with squadrons have squadron costs and build times added to their own costs and build times in a reduced scale, so an ISD is extremely expensive in terms of credit cost and build time considering it has swarms of fighters in addition to its extensive weapons, armor, and shields. Enough independently-built fighters and bombers to destroy an ISD and its complement can be built cheaper and quicker than the ISD+squadrons can, so escort is definitely required for larger vessels. If that wasn't enough, try fighter-rushing in skirmish as the CSA in PR. If done right, you will have enough Mankvims and Preybirds to swarm your opponent and whittle down his stations and annihilate any built fighters and he will be helpless against his numerical inferiority.

I'll take your word on all of this. I haven't played PR enough to know, like I said. It's a great mod that accomplishes what it set out to do but my mod is not their mod... I work towards a different end. Not always, but in most cases, I just want the game to be fun, if not cannon. Having to spend loads of credits for just one ISD, as you make it sound, is not my idea of a quick and fun game. It sound great if you are going for hardcore, hour-upon-hour gameplay with intense micromanaging....that's not so much my style. I prefer a game that plays out quick but still packs the strategy; a fast and intense battle that keeps you on your toes but doesn't take forever to get to. Sitting it out between battles gets old very quickly, IMO. Again, maybe PR isn't like this, I don't know because I've only played skirmish matches. Realistically, most modders only play their own mod. It isn't an ego thing...it's just that their mod is their brainchild and they spend so much time with it -testing, playing, and more testing- that they don't take time for much else (at least all the modders I've really talked to).

I get the feeling that you guys are wanting my mod to be PR...but with Mandalorians. I want my mod to be my mod. I hope that makes sense and doesn't sound arrogant.

[vadereclipse]

i've played PR with swarms of fighters attacking the overproduced super-class units.
As they have so many weapons, fighters are hopeless. seeing as how the screen goes virtually green as ships are in range, it's not easy to play. fighters for me got destroyed in seconds.

[SpardaSon21]

Oh no, I understand you wanting your mod to be your mod. Unfortunately it has been a while since I played PR so I can't give exact numbers or even close to the ballpark on credit costs for ships, but fighters stay relatively close to standard FoC with prices of a few hundred for a fighter squadron with prices for ships increasing by level. And PR is not about quick-and-dirty fights, fights between capitals take a while to finish in PR, just like they would in the movies. Personally I love the feel PR has when it comes to the big boys, it really feels like titans engaging in a brutal slugging match rather than ships with paper-thin armor and shields mounting excessively large weapons.

[the_Farseer]

Oh, wow. You took my example and used it to completely ignore my points again, and then put words in my mouth.

Look, I'm not telling you to become PR. I'm telling you this mod is totally unbalanced.

"Capital beats Frigate
Frigate beats Corvette
Corvette beats Fighter
Fighter beats Capital (and other fighters)"

Really? That's funny considering that a couple shots from ANYTHING a class or more higher in your mod destroys anything below it. The point I'm making is that, regardless of WHAT fighters have crippled in canon, one pass should not annihilate any capital ship. What I'm saying here is simply this:

<Shield_Points>2000</Shield_Points>
<Tactical_Health>7500</Tactical_Health>

Alright, we've got these values for the Star Destroyer. Now, what I'm suggesting is simply increasing them.

<Shield_Points>4000</Shield_Points>
<Tactical_Health>12500</Tactical_Health>

Now the SD has a longer lifespan. Easy as that. Now another example: Crusaders.

<Shield_Points>700</Shield_Points>
<Tactical_Health>800</Tactical_Health>

Wow, that is low. See, this explains my problems earlier. With an SD's rate of fire, damage, and number of weapons, these numbers are laughable at best.

<Shield_Points>1400</Shield_Points>
<Tactical_Health>2000</Tactical_Health>

A little tweaking, and suddenly it can survive more than three seconds near an SD.

Now do you see what I'm trying to say? The only thing wrong here is the numbers you have assigned these ships, nothing more. And a bit of tweaking quickly fixes it. With those values changed, fighters need realistic numbers to cripple a capital, and ships survive long enough to actually apply tactics.

I have not been putting words in your mouth. I simply said that I *felt* like you were wanting my mod to become PR...it was an impression. Never once did I state that you explicitly wanted this conversion. You are taking all of this way too personal. Again, I will stress the point that a corvette-class ship would only survive about three seconds against a fully armed ISD. In the Han Solo books, during the battle of Nar Shadda, several Corvette sized ships are melted away by just a Dreadnought ship...whereas an ISD would have just decimated the Hutt's fleet. Tactics must be applied before a battle too, not after ever ship has been placed in the battlefield. You and I just seem to have different styles of gameplay because I never seem to have the problems you have. When I know that a corevette won't last long against an ISD, I don't send it in...I just send in a ship that I know can counter it. When my larger ship starts to come under fire from fighters, then I send in the corvettes to counter and once the big ship is safe, the corvettes fall back until the bigger ship is killed. It a style that means you can rarely go in "guns blazing". I know in my last post I said that I liked battles to go quickly but the "guns blazing" effect was not what I was meaning by this.

If I can deviate for a moment too and point out one other HUGE difference between PR mod and mine that may be a contributing factor to the complaints you are having: PR has no destroyable hardpoints. This means that a ship will be firing at full capacity until it is just plain dead. This makes ships appear much more powerful than they would in my mod simply because ships that are almost dead may not even have any guns left, whereas in PR, they still have all their guns.

Lastly, I want to say that I have never said that I am not willing to at least look at the stats for space units, but you have assumed that my rebuttals are indicating this; not at all. My counter-posts are simply an effort to explain why things are the way they are now. Any changes I do make will not be drastic but I never said I'm not willing to look. We have both said our piece on this matter, more than we should have already so lets just leave it now, before this escalates. Thanks.