80 replies to this topic

[clank234]

Hi i was reading something about Gothmog and found that he wasn't an orc, he was the Balrog leader of Angband. So were the movie making up Gothmog the orc or was the orc still a real servant of Sauron?
Clank234

Edited by Námo, 09 February 2011 - 08:59 AM.
changed topic title and subtitle

[Ganon]

Have you even googled it?!

Yes, he was a leader of the Balrogs. AND, a lieutenant of Minas Morgul.

Gothmog is a fictional character from J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium. He is featured in The Return of the King, the third volume of the high fantasy novel The Lord of the Rings as originally printed.

The only reference to Gothmog in The Lord of the Rings is one sentence in The Return of the King. He serves in Sauron's army during the War of the Ring, as the lieutenant of Minas Morgul, second-in-command to the Witch-king of Angmar, lord of the nine Nazgûl. He commands the forces of Morgul during the Battle of the Pelennor Fields after the Witch-king is slain by Éowyn and Merry. His fate is not described, although it is strongly implied that he and almost all of the servants of Sauron that fought before the gates of Minas Tirith were killed. Tolkien writes nothing else about Gothmog not even what race of beings he belonged to. Gothmog shares his name with another of Tolkien's characters, Gothmog Lord of Balrogs, who is featured in The Silmarillion.

Edited by Námo, 30 January 2011 - 12:59 PM.
restoring quotetags after forum upgrade

[Mathijs]

Though Tolkien doesn't specify the race Gothmog of the Third Age belonged to, I've always assumed that whatever he was, it wasn't an Orc. I doubt an Orc would be second-in-command to the Witch-king because Orcs weren't particularly intelligent, and Sauron wasn't stupid enough to allow an Orc in command of one of his most important battles.

I reckon he was a Man of sorts, perhaps a Black Numenorean like the Mouth of Sauron.

Edited by Matias, 22 January 2011 - 01:24 PM.

[clank234]

Though Tolkien doesn't specify the race Gothmog of the Third Age belonged to, I've always assumed that whatever he was, it wasn't an Orc. I doubt an Orc would be second-in-command to the Witch-king because Orcs weren't particularly intelligent, and Sauron wasn't stupid enough to allow an Orc in command of one of his most important battles.

I reckon he was a Man of sorts, perhaps a Black Numenorean like the Mouth of Sauron.

Yeah, cuz i was wondering as you said a orc has nil intelligents so he could have been on one of the ships that fled when Numenor (the island) was flooded.
Also i tried searching google for the Palantir but i just can't find it. I want to know more about how Noldor created, possibly who and even when. All i know is where the Palantirs lived. Also waas Haldir born in the 1st, 2nd or the 3rd age?

EDIT: Sorry for bad spelling, i type to fast

Edited by clank234, 22 January 2011 - 01:48 PM.

[Mathijs]

... What?

[clank234]

... What?

The Palantir that Saruman had control because when Orthanc was given to him, it was still in there. I know there were 7 and the Noldor created and where they stayed. But does anybody know more about them?
And was Haldir of Lothlorien in the 1st or 2nd age?

[Námo]

@clank: your question is not very clear, but I take that you are referring to Gothmog the 'Lieutenant of Morgul', i.e. the one who took command of some of Saurons forces at the battle of the Pelennor Fields; I've added a subtitle to the topic accordingly.

The question is about as controversial as the one on whether Balrogs had wings or not, and the answer depends on in which context you want the puzzle solved:

• Do you want it answered only in relation to lore proper?
• Or is the most important aspect for you 'applied lore', i.e. lore applied to modding?

If you only want to know, if Peter Jacksons interpretation is valid, cf.:

... were the movie making up Gothmog the orc?

'Gothmog the Orc' never existed. 'Gothmog the Lieutenant of Morgul' did, but it's extremely unlikely that he was just an orc.

There are three more likely possibilities concerning the nature (or race) of Gothmog: Nazgul, Black Númenorean, or Boldog.

Edited by Námo, 24 January 2011 - 07:28 PM.
restoring quote-tags after forum upgrade

[clank234]

I undestand about Gothmog now but instead of making a new topic for a new question, i have some new questions about the Palantir. And if Haldir was alive during the 1st age or 2nd age

Edit: So i'm not talking about Gothmog now

Edited by clank234, 22 January 2011 - 01:56 PM.

[_Haldir_]

Yeah, cuz i was wondering as you said a orc has nil intelligents so he could have been on one of the ships that fled when Numenor (the island) was flooded.

Black Numenoreans weren't amongst the ships that fled Numenor when it was destroyed, those ships were made up of the Faithful, led by Elendil and his two sons, Isildur and Anarion. The Faithful were reverent of the Valar, friends to the Elves, and opposed to Sauron who was manipulating the King of Numenor. Black Numenoreans were Numenoreans who had travelled to Middle-earth before the ruin of Numenor, and had followed Sauron rather than Elendil or any of the Faithful. Sauron corrupted many of these to his service (especially in the lands of Umbar and Harad), of which the Mouth of Sauron was one, and potentially Gothmog.

Also i tried searching google for the Palantir but i just can't find it. I want to know more about how Noldor created, possibly who and even when. All i know is where the Palantirs lived

According to the index in the Silmarillion, the palantiri were made by Feanor in Aman, and were given to the Numenoreans during the 2nd Age. Men weren't permitted to sail to Valinor, but the Elves would occasionally travel to Numenor, bringing with them gifts. Elendil, Isildur and Anarion stowed them on their ships when preparing to leave Numenor, and the seven stones went with them into Middle-earth. There is a Master-Stone still in Aman, but it's never said how it works or what effect is has on the other stones. I'd guess that it would probably be able to see all communication between all other stones.

And was Haldir of Lothlorien in the 1st or 2nd age?

It's never said when he was born. Though when speaking to Merry in Lothlorien, it seems that Haldir didn't know much of the Grey Havens or the sea, which might suggest he was born later, probably in Lothlorien in the 2nd or 3rd Age. He's not exactly mentioned as especially old or wise, so the 1st Age seems unlikely. His immediate mistrust of Gimli might mean he was around for the ruin of Eregion (late 2nd Age), or the awakening of the Balrog in Moria (early 3rd Age). That said, he might just simply be following the laws of Celeborn and Galadriel.

Haldir's not to be confused with the Haldir of the 1st Age, a man of the Folk of Haleth.

If you haven't already, go read the Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales. They will tell you a lot about the 1st and 2nd Ages, as well as the Palantiri.

[clank234]

Thankyou _Haldir_

[Námo]

... instead of making a new topic for a new question, i have some new questions about the Palantir.

Well, there are other topics in the Lore Forum, that are all-purpose. This should not be one of them, so I've made a new topic on the palantíri for you. Follow the trackback in the quote below:

It's better to make a new topic, so that other people later on can find what information is posted on the subject in question.

Edited by Námo, 24 January 2011 - 11:58 AM.
restoring quote-tags

[clank234]

Gothmog must have been very powerful as he must have surpassed Khamuls level. He possibly could have been a victim of the morgul blade of one of the nazgul.

[Ganon]

Gothmog must have been very powerful as he must have surpassed Khamuls level.

That's an interesting point. How would Gothmog, whatever race he was, have been second-in-command after The Witch King?
Wouldn't the other Nazgûl come first?

Edited by Ganon, 22 January 2011 - 06:44 PM.

[clank234]

I have to find out the best option for whatever he is.

Orc

Nazgul - Possible

Troll - Possible

Dragon

Balrog

BarrowWight - Possible

Black Numenorean - best guess

Evil lost Maia spirit - possible

These are the highly possible gueses i have. It must have been some sorcery or witch-craft due to the fact he is a morgul being. Right?

Edited by clank234, 22 January 2011 - 06:49 PM.

[Lauri]

AFAIK, being a Nazgul isn't like being royal and related, it doesn't grant you a free pass to command...

[clank234]

AFAIK, being a Nazgul isn't like being royal and related, it doesn't grant you a free pass to command...

But Sauron chose them wisely i'm sure. All orcs feared them. Men feared them.

[Lauri]

My list;

Black Numenorian
Nazgul - Least possibly, but more likely than an orc or a troll

And what are you talking about, a morgul being? Nobody said he was born\bred\made\invented\summoned in Minas Morgul. He is the Lieutenant of Morgul

[clank234]

I was reading the Thain book and red about the Blue Wizards, we were never told about their fate and they never returned to the Undying lands. Is it possible that one of them could have been tamed by Sauron and renamed into Gothmog?

Edited by clank234, 22 January 2011 - 07:21 PM.

[Námo]

No.

[Vortigern]

But Sauron chose them wisely i'm sure. All orcs feared them. Men feared them.

I thought the Nazgul were just the humans that he gave rings to? They were the guys who happened to be kings at the time of Sauron making the rings, so he didn't really choose them so much as use them. Or have I got some horribly skewed version of the lore going on here?