80 replies to this topic

[Adamin]

There are three more likely possibilities concerning the nature (or race) of Gothmog: Nazgul, Black Númenorean, or Boldog.

Assuming that Boldog still means "Lesser Maia spirit, incarnated as an orc", I would roll with this as an explanation for the movie-interpretation.

I mean, the Witchking never stated in the movie: "Come to me Gothmog, you absolutely ordinary and in no way special, simple orc!"
As far as I remember at least. ^^


Edit: Namo made it faster.

Edited by Námo, 29 January 2011 - 08:15 AM.
restoring quotetags after forum upgrade

[clank234]

Hmmm, interesting. So how did Melkor learn the formula of creating orcs? Because don't they use wood in the movie or something like that?

[Námo]

... how did Melkor learn the formula of creating orcs?

Considering you're only a kid, I'll not go into details on that process, except this:

On the question of the origin of Orcs, Tolkien did take a final decision about 1959-60, in his latest writings; in The Silmarillion as published we still find the assumption, that Orcs might be corrupted Elves, but Tolkien very clearly rejected this as an impossible idea in some later writings.

The lore I refer to is the essay Origin of Orcs which exist as a sort of appendix to a major work entitled Essekenta Eldarinwa or Quendi and Eldar, which Christopher Tolkien describes thus: "with the appendices Quendi and Eldar runs to nearly fifty closely typed pages, and being a highly finished and lucid work is of the utmost interest".

The essay Origin of Orcs can be found in History of Middle-earth Vol. X: Myths transformed, section X

from Myths transformed, section X: Orcs:

We may assume, then, that the idea of breeding the Orcs came from Melkor, not at first maybe so much for the provision of servants or the infantery of his wars of destruction, as for the the defilement of the Children [of Iluvatar] and the blasphemeous mockery of the designs of Eru. The details of this accomplishment of his wickedness were, however, left mainly to the subleties of Sauron. In that case the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought, though the beginning of their actual breeding must await the awakening of Men.

When Melkor was made captive, Sauron escaped and lay hid in Middle-earth; and it can in this way be understood how the breeding of Orcs (no doubt already begun) went on with increasing speed during the age when the Noldor dwelt in Aman; so that they returned to Middle-earth they found it already infested with this plague, to the torment of all who dwelt there, Elves or Men or Dwarves.

It was Sauron, also, who secretly repaired Angband for the help of his Master when he returned; and there the dark places underground were already manned with hosts of Orcs before Melkor came back at last, as Morgoth the Black Enemy, and send them forth to bring ruin upon all that was fair. And though Angband has fallen and Morgoth is removed, still they come forth from the lightless places in the darkness of their hearts, and the earth is withered under their pitiless feet.

in a note immediately following above text Christopher Tolkien writes:

This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question [on the origin of Orcs]: Orcs were bred from Men, and if "the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought" it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned.

If normal Orcs would have been corrupted Elves, then they would have been 'immortal' like those; this would indeed be contrary to the gist of Tolkien's Legendarium, and in fact contradicting a lot of the lore.

I think this lore doesn't change much in respect to modding, except on one issue: the Orcpit ... the concept of Orcs being created in some kind of 'muddy pool' is ridiculous ... being in origin corrupted Men, they probably copulate and procreate just like men ... and if 'someone' now wants a little discussion on Orc-women, do that in 'The Blue Parrot' and not here!

Edited by Námo, 26 January 2011 - 03:54 PM.
restoring formatting after forum upgrade

[Lauri]

if you're going to go off topic in every topic you might as well stop posting clank

And Adamin; I doubt Peter ever thought about that.. I think he simply wanted an orc chief villain, and acts as a antagonists. That's very movie-friendly, and it's kinda good to have an Orc as an antagonist, since there's loads of orcs
It is good for the movie, really. Atleast in my opinion, because most of the audience don't think more of it than a kick-ass orc.

[Adamin]

Well, I don't know what PJ was smoking, when he decided on Gothmog. I only wanted to say that his interpretation is not contrary to what is stated in expanded lore.

Of course the orc villain is much easier to implement/explain to an audience, which never heard of LotR beside from the movie. But I think it also makes sense in a military way:

Yes, the Nazgûl and I suppose Black Numenoeans too were able to lead Saurons forces into battle, but they would mainly lead them through fear. Everyone fears the Nazgûl, so if you put one at the back of a battallion, the soldiers will charge forward. ^^

I think the Nazgûl were the supreme Commanders, as direct slaves of Saurons will, but their ability to actually transmit any military tactic to the more simple soldiers is limited through their nature (which is fear itself). The warrior, who is permanently crapping his pants, is more likely to desert, than to hold his position disciplined.

That's why I think it makes sense to put a more fleshly leader in the position of commanding the troops. Not only to not weaken them with the "black breath", but also to let them operate more tactically and keep a clear head.

It's like Namo quoted:

Morgoth had many servants, [...] and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible form. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible.

You have to speak your soldiers language, which in this case translates simlpy to: "I'm stronger than you, so shut up and get the hell back in line, or I'll smack you silly." ^^

So yeah, I think there is some actual thought behind Gothmog the Orc/Boldog, more than just crowdpleasing.

Edited by Námo, 29 January 2011 - 08:07 AM.
restoring quotetags after forum upgrade

[Mathijs]

Whether or not PJ thought this through to the extent you did remains to be seen, but it's a good theory.

[modboy451]

i found this on the tolkien gateway HERE

Gothmog lieutenant of morgul
Gothmog is portrayed as an Orc with a misshapen face. He is played by Lawrence Makoare, and his voice is provided by Craig Parker. Peter Jackson wanted to show a hideously deformed orc, one that would aptly convey the "ugliness" of Mordor. The upper left side of Gothmog's body is swollen and pock-marked from a disease of some sort, as described by the design department. His pale, yellow skin may also be a consequence of this illness. Gothmog's intelligence is far above that of the common orc and he, understandably, would be the perfect link between the Witch-King and the other planners of the siege of Minas Tirith (most likely men in Sauron's service) and the mindless mass of orc infantry on the front lines. While Gothmog likely did not have the intelligence to design the attack on the White City he certainly would have been able to ensure orders were carried out. Gothmog is clearly a brutal commander, but also an over-confident one. Peter Jackson comments that Gothmog feels powerful with Mordor's massive army behind him, but in reality is a crippled orc, as seen in his failed dismount from a Warg in the Extended edition. Gothmog does, however, seem to be a capable warrior, though somewhat inhibited by his crippled left side.

he DOES die in the battle of plennenor fields!!!
\/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/
In the midst of the chaos, Gothmog is forced into hand-to-hand combat. He sees a pocket of particularly stiff resistance, primarily from Théoden and Éowyn, and decides to fight Eowyn. She is a more skilled figher than he, however, and soon injurs him on his crippled left leg, rendering him essentially unable to walk and useless to Mordor's army as a whole. After Éowyn has killed the Witch-King, in an act of revenge, Gothmog attempts to kill her with a mace he finds nearby. He was, however, killed just in time by Aragorn and Gimli. As he was about to strike, Aragorn cut off his armored right arm, but Gothmog persists and Gimli hit him in the abdomen with his axe. Aragorn then cut through Gothmog's armor on the right side with his sword to finally bring the Orc down.


you can also view details about the Balrog leader gothmog:

HERE

Hope it helps!!!

[modboy451]

AND this is what they say about what he is,

An Orc, however his name appears to be Sindarin (look below), something impossible for Orcs.
A Man, in which case he was probably a Black Númenórean like the Mouth of Sauron
One of the Nazgûl, but since Tolkien never specifically mentions the name when the Nazgûl had significant roles earlier, and never refers to Gothmog as a Ringwraith (something that would be of prime importance to the story), it is less probable. The possibility, however, is still a valid one.
It is also possible that he was in fact a Boldog, a fallen Maia in Orc form.

[Námo]

@modboy: good posts. Having better resources, I usually never go to Tolkien Gateway, but that article was not bad, although as they state themselves: This article needs to be rewritten.

The most important hint/fact from that article is this one:

... his name appears to be Sindarin ... something impossible for Orcs.

However, there are many more hints, or small snippets of lore, that are relevant in solving the puzzle of who Gothmog really is. The trick is to make a matrix of probabilities, i.e to list the possible solutions (Nazgûl, Black Númenorean, Boldog, Orc) and then check these against the facts or hints that can be extracted from the lore ... in this way one can eliminate all but one of the solutions.

Warning: This process requires some deep digging into the lore (about two levels deeper than where we are now), and it even requires some knowledge of the very nature of Tolkien's legendarium, the way he himself did look upon it, as a subcreation in its own right.

Well, I've known the answer since yesterday, looking up various snippets of lore, evaluating them and adding two plus two ... or rather: from four detracting one (as above), then from three detracting two so that only one remains.

Important note:
It's been an interesting debate so far, reminding me of some of the enthusiastic discussions of old ... without this I probably never have given this matter so much thought, or done the necessary research due to a busy real life. Thanks a lot to everybody joining this debate ... even clank's question on Haldir's age, and especially Haldir's reply, has a small (indirect) role to play in this.

So, when we come to the end of the road, I'll look upon the result as a collective achievement ... well, we are not there yet, but if we can come to some common conclusion, it sure would be a nice feeling, that the community of the 3rd Age can do it one better than anybody else, concerning this puzzle.

I'll have to divide my argumentation across some posts, so it'll a little time to state the logic behind this, and to type in the main snippets of lore ... in the meantime any input in the debate are welcome, but don't cheat (don't look) ... don't spoil the fun.

 

On the debate on 'Gothmog of the lore' versus 'Gothmog of the movie': Those two are definitely very different characters, and the only thing they have in common is the name. The orc commander in the movie is named wrongly according to lore; there are however various solutions to this ... I'll post on this matter later.

Spoiler

My conclusion: Gothmog IS a nasty Nazgûl ... this is the only option still available after applying the various snippets of lore to eliminate the various possibilities, and the only objection really is that Tolkien never gave the names of those creepy fellows, except for Khamul (and that was in a small note posted posthumous by his son).

... and btw: this fits beautifully with the 'names' (titles), that I've once promised to reveal.

Edited by Námo, 26 January 2011 - 03:59 PM.
problems with hide-box not working

[Námo]

There seems to be a problem with the hide-box in the post above, it might be temporary caused by the transition to the new IP software ... sorry, it was not the intention, that I should cheat you.

Edit: problem fixed ... hide-boxes don't work, spoiler do ... so that spoiled my fun.

 
On quite another note, concerning the mess with missing quote-tags caused by the forum upgrade: I've restored these in some of my own posts, and might eventually do so also in the other posts, to make them more readable.

Edited by Námo, 26 January 2011 - 03:52 PM.
added info

[_Haldir_]

Warning: This process requires some deep digging into the lore (about two levels deeper than where we are now)

Cue Inception Music. BBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMMM.

[Námo]

Cue Inception Music. BBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMMM.

That statement was very cryptic ... I don't really dig that, my friend.

Edited by Námo, 25 January 2011 - 01:03 PM.
emphasis on pun added

[_Haldir_]

Have you seen the film Inception? If not, go hire it and watch it. Then my comment will make much more sense. And even if you disregard my comment completely, it's well worth watching anyway

[Námo]

OK, I promise to watch that movie, if I can my hands on it ... if you good people in return promise not to stray too much off topic.

[Adamin]

Sooooooo, will the lore-digging begin soon? ^^

I'm pretty excited to hear about the results of your in-depth detail study Namo.

[Baki]

All kinds of possibilities were noted here, from Boldog to troll and Black Numenorean, though not Black Uruk.
I think that it's also possible that he could be a Black Uruk of Mordor. Considering the fact that they were capable warriors and much more intelligent than normal Orcs, loyal and of evil nature. Wasn't Shagrat (Black Uruk) even the chief of Cirith Ungol in the books? If I remember correctly, they were even favored by Sauron, as they were loyal to him and also different from regular Orcs I think. Weren't they beings that were native to Middle-Earth, say not created by Sauron/Morgoth but already living there before they (Sauron/Morgoth) came and created Orcs?

Though I agree that it's very likely that he was a Nazgul/Black Numenorean, I still just wanted to bring this in, as nobody else came up with the possibility of him being a Black Uruk so far.

[Námo]

There are no Black Uruks, just black Uruks. They were basically big bad Orcs, who wasn't bothered by daylight, and they appeared at the end of the 3rd Age, in Mordor and Isengard, and some were encountered by the Fellowship in Moria as well.

Orcs evolved from corrupted men, and like men they developed into different races. Nothing special.

Cirith Ungol was build by Gondor as a forward defense against Mordor, and after the return of Sauron in later 3rd Age its function must have been somewhat similar, i.e. to ensure that Orcs or Men didn't escape from Mordor. Compared to the forces gathered at Minas Morgul the garrison of Orcs at Cirith Ungol was rather insignificant, so an uruk as commander of the orcs there is rather logical; as far as I remember he also had to obey orders from "higher up" ... the Nazgûl of Minas Morgul.

Edited by Námo, 28 January 2011 - 09:57 PM.

[Unknown]

I would say that he is a black numenorean/Nazgul due to the fact that orcs arn't the mightiest of beings and certainly not the most intellegant imo!

[Námo]

Cirith Ungol was build by Gondor as a forward defense against Mordor, and after the return of Sauron in later 3rd Age its function must have been somewhat similar, i.e. to ensure that Orcs or Men didn't escape from Mordor. Compared to the forces gathered at Minas Morgul the garrison of Orcs at Cirith Ungol was rather insignificant, so an uruk as commander of the orcs there is rather logical; as far as I remember he also had to obey orders from "higher up" ... the Nazgûl of Minas Morgul.

Some further explanation on this:

from 'The Tower of Cirith Ungol':

Shagrat's company had seemed to be about forty, and Gorbag's more than twice as large; but of course Shagrat's patrol had only been a part of his garrison.

Shagrat was the 'Captain of the Tower', i.e. the tower of Cirith Ungol, and Gorbag was an Orc-captain send from Minas Morgul. As the two groups in the end succeeded to kill each other, we must assume, that the garrison of Cirith Ungol was not greater than about a hundred orcs.

As a comparison the forces from Mordor (excluding allies), at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, did at least count some 20.000 orcs; some were troops from Barad-dûr and Morannon, but the greater part probably from Morgul. The allies from Harad, Khand and Rhûn were estimated minimum 25.000.
This gives us an estimated total of about 50.000 troops under the command of the Witchking and Gothmog.

An army of this size and diversity of units would require an efficient command-structure to function properly, and this indicates a structure of several levels; one of the ways to solve the problem of Gothmog's identity is to assign to these levels the possibilities that have been listed so far: the Nazgûl, the Black Númenoreans, Boldogs and Orcs (and for the allies Commanders of Men, too).

Some hints:

• Sauron is (of course) important. He may have had a strong will-power, but it was limited (without the One Ring) ... he was mainly acting through his most loyal servants.
• Don't focus on the Battle of the Pelennor fields only. There were other battles as well, and the dates of their occurence shows that they were very well planned and coordinated ... there are small clues scattered around on the various battlefields.
• Don't forget the invasion in the south [battles at Linhir(!) and Pelargir(?)] ... some clue on the importance of Khand [and the Black Númenoreans(?)]
  (this is from 'History of Middle-earth' only, and it's not easy accessible. sorry)
• Forget about movie-lore and especially GW-lore and the like; it'll only confuse you and lead you astray.

 
On Shagrat and Gorbag:

Before they started fighting, the two captains had an interesting dialog, where some of their remarks give an small insight in the command-structure of Mordor's forces:

from 'The Choices of Master Samwise':

'Hola! Gorbag! What are you doing up here? Had enough of war already?'
'Orders, you lubber. And what are you doing, Shargrat? Tired of lurking up there? Thinking of coming down to fight?'
'Orders to you. I'm in command of this pass.'

[...]

[Gorbag] 'Oho! So they haven't told you what to expect? ... they can make mistakes, even the Top Ones can.'
[Shagrat] 'They may, but they've got eyes and ears everywhere; ... there's no doubt about it, they're troubled about something. The Nazgûl down below are, by your account; and Lugbúrz is too.'
...
[Gorbag] 'The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to. Grr! Those Nazgûl give me creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side. But He likes 'em; they're His favourites nowadays ...'
...
[Gorbag] '... I'm not easy in my mind. As I said, the Big Bosses, ay,' his voice sank almost to a whisper, 'ay, even the Biggest, can make mistakes. [...] A message came: Nazgûl uneasy. Spies feared on Stairs. Double vigilance. Patrol to head of Stairs.'

On the Nazgûl of Minas Morgul, there's this piece of lore:

from 'Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring', note 1)

According to the entry in the Tale of Years for 2951 Sauron sent three, not two, of the Nazgûl to reoccupy Dol Guldur. The two statements can be reconciled on the assumption that one of the Ringwraiths of Dol Guldur returned afterwards to Minas Morgul but I think it more likely that the formulation of the present text was superseded when the Tale of Years was compiled; and it may be noted that in a rejected version of the present passage there was only one Nazgûl in Dol Guldur (not named as Khamûl, but referred to as "the Second Chief (the Black Easterling)"), while one remained with Sauron as his chief messenger.

From notes recounting in detail the movements of the Black Riders in the Shire it emerges that it was Khamûl who came to Hobbiton and spoke to Gaffer Gamgee, who followed the Hobbits along the road to Stock, and who narrowly missed them at the Bucklebury Ferry. The Rider who accompanied him, whom he summoned by cries on the ridge above Woodhall, and with whom he visited Farmer Maggot, was "his companion from Dol Guldur." Of Khamûl it is said here that he was the most ready of all the Nazgûl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.

Edited by Námo, 02 March 2011 - 09:31 PM.

[Adamin]

So?

Gorbag and Shagrat feared and despised the Nazgûl. Like everyone else.


This isn't everything you found out, or is it? ^^

Edited by Adamin, 08 February 2011 - 10:35 PM.