80 replies to this topic

[Ganon]

Or have I got some horribly skewed version of the lore going on here?

Nope, sounds good to me.

[clank234]

Khamul was one of them. They were obviously Kings of seperate realms

[Puppeteer]

No.

[Námo]

But Sauron chose them wisely i'm sure. All orcs feared them. Men feared them.

I thought the Nazgul were just the humans that he gave rings to? They were the guys who happened to be kings at the time of Sauron making the rings, so he didn't really choose them so much as use them. Or have I got some horribly skewed version of the lore going on here?

You are both almost correct; Sauron didn't make the Nine Rings, though he had part in their making. They were made by Celebrimbor, Lord of Ost-en-Edhil in Eregion, the city of the Elven-smiths (Gwaith-i-mirdain) to the west of the west-gate of Khazad-dûm.

Also, we do not know exactly when he gave those rings to mortal men, and if they at the time of receiving the rings were kings already.

from The Return of the King (Appendix B), 'The Tales of Years', 2nd Age:

1697: ... Death of Celebrimbor ...
[...]
2251: ... About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.

from The Silmarillion /Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age:

Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind ... to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will.
[...]
Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their days, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old ... one by one, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and under the dominion of the One, which was Sauron's.

Edited by Námo, 26 January 2011 - 11:47 AM.
restoring quote-tags after forum upgrade

[clank234]

Rings of Power used by Sauron to turn nine Men into the Nazgul. The Nine Rings were each set with a gemstone. They were made by Celebrimbor and the Elves of Eregion around 1500 of the Second Age. The Elves made the Rings under the instruction of Sauron, who had come to them in disguise and deceived them about his true identity. Sauron then forged the One Ring to control the other Rings of Power. Because they had been made using skills taught by Sauron, the Nine Rings were subject to the One Ring.

Sauron declared war on the Elves. He invaded Eregion in 1697 and seized the Nine Rings. He distributed the Rings to nine Men, three of whom were said to be Men of Numenor. These Men used the powers of their Rings to become great Kings and sorcerers and to gain glory and wealth for themselves.

The Nine Rings made their wearers invisible and prolonged their lives. But these gifts soon became a curse for the Men who bore the Nine Rings. They eventually became permanently invisible and their lives were stretched out until living became unbearable. They became Wraiths, unseen except when they clad themselves in black robes. The bearers of the Nine Rings first appeared as the Ringwraiths, or Nazgul, around 2251 of the Second Age.

The Nazgul were completely under the control of Sauron. They no longer had wills of their own. It was therefore through the Nine Rings that Sauron had the most success in his plan to use the One Ring to control the other Rings of Power. The Dwarves resisted enslavement through the Seven Rings - although they became greedy - and the Elves did not use the Three Rings while Sauron had the One.

At some point, Sauron apparently took the Nine Rings back from the Nazgul. It is stated in several accounts that Sauron held the Nine Rings in his possession.* By that time the Nazgul were evidently so subjugated to Sauron's will that they no longer needed to wear their Rings.

The Nazgul became Sauron's mightiest servants. Led by the Lord of the Nazgul, they struck terror in the hearts of those who encountered them.

From Thain's Book.
Remember "The Nazgul became Sauron's mightiest servants"
3 numenorean Kings. I bet you they were Elendil's 3 other sons:
-Elendur
-Aratar
-Ciryon
As they weren't at the last alliance battle and they are the only 3 possibiltys.

I have another question, Why didn't Sauron re-use the rings that he took back from the Nazgul so he could create another 9 Nazgul?

Edited by clank234, 22 January 2011 - 09:21 PM.

[Námo]

Remember "The Nazgul became Sauron's mightiest servants"
3 numenorean Kings. I bet you they were Elendil's 3 other sons:
-Elendur
-Aratar
-Ciryon
As they weren't at the last alliance battle and they are the only 3 possibiltys.

Vorherre på lokum! (sorry, just a common Danish expression in such a case)

Just tell me, what drugs are you on? Please do me a favor of reflecting on what you're about to write, before you actually post it.

Those three gentlemen were the sons of Isildur, not Elendil, and they were born almost 800 years later than the first appearance of the Nazgûl.

 

I have another question, Why didn't Sauron re-use the rings that he took back from the Nazgul so he could create another 9 Nazgul?

This question belongs in the topic 'The Blue Parrot' - I'll copy it to there and give you a clue.

Edited by Námo, 26 January 2011 - 11:39 AM.
restoring formatting after forum upgrade

[clank234]

[indent=1]

Remember "The Nazgul became Sauron's mightiest servants"
3 numenorean Kings. I bet you they were Elendil's 3 other sons:
-Elendur
-Aratar
-Ciryon
As they weren't at the last alliance battle and they are the only 3 possibiltys.

Vorherre på lokum! (sorry, just a common Danish expression in such a case)

Just tell me, what drugs are you on? Please do me a favor of reflecting on what you're about to write, before you actually post it.

Those three gentlemen were the sons of Isildur, not Elendil, and they were born almost 800 years later than the first appearance of the Nazgûl.

Sorry about that. I was going ahead of myself I was on about the Nazgul. It wouldn't make sense for any other King of Numenor would it as they were all heirs of Isildur and well protected. Then after the siege of Fornost and the end of Arnor due to the Witch-King and Angmar, the heir was apparantly lost but the true heirs hid in the wilderness or wherever they could didn't they?

Edit: By the way, i tried some pot then went to crack but it never worked

Edited by clank234, 22 January 2011 - 10:22 PM.

[Námo]

... By the way, i tried some pot then went to crack but it never worked

Ooh, I've posted some entertainment for you here, hope it can brighten up your mood.

Edited by Námo, 24 January 2011 - 07:05 PM.
restoring quote-tags after forum upgrade

[clank234]

Yay
That was epic.

--------------------

EDIT by Námo: some drivel removed

Edited by Námo, 23 January 2011 - 07:31 AM.

[Mathijs]

You tried crack?

That explains everything.

[clank234]

It explains too much actually. Hmmm...

[Ganon]

What are you, like 10 years old maybe?

[clank234]

15 actually
For Anyone who has no sense of humour, this is all a jk

--------------------

EDIT by Námo: some drivel removed

Edited by Námo, 23 January 2011 - 07:33 AM.

[clank234]

Sorry for double post but how did this turn from Gothmog being orc to me taking crack?

Edited by clank234, 23 January 2011 - 12:00 AM.

[Mathijs]

You don't remember? You mentioned it.

[Elvenlord]

Just stop.

[Spartan184]

You would think he would stop once he found out no one thought it was funny

[Námo]

I doubt that, so I've edited some of the drivel out of his posts, and deleted one of them.

@clank: your posts are too confused, so the fun stops right here. You are of course welcome to post some sensible questions or comments, but just spamming drivel will be deleted.

 
@all: the discussion on Gothmog is too good to stop here, but it looks like we'll have to start from square one again:

The question is about as controversial as the one on whether Balrogs had wings or not, and the answer depends on in which context you want the puzzle solved:

• Do you want it answered only in relation to lore proper?
• Or is the most important aspect for you 'applied lore', i.e. lore applied to modding?

If you only want to know, if Peter Jacksons interpretation is valid, cf.:

... were the movie making up Gothmog the orc?

'Gothmog the Orc' never existed. 'Gothmog the Lieutenant of Morgul' did, but it's extremely unlikely that he was just an orc.

There are three more likely possibilities concerning the nature (or race) of Gothmog: Nazgul, Black Númenorean, or Boldog.

Edited by Námo, 26 January 2011 - 11:37 AM.
restoring quote-tags after forum upgrade

[clank234]

K i went to far with what i said, i'm sorry. Anyways, is there really more that we can say about Gothmog other than he was litely to be Nazgul or Black numenorean and he defintely was not an orc

[Námo]

We? ... please speak only for yourself; if you replace 'I' for 'we', you're probably correct.

If you don't mind, I'll have some more info to add to this subject ... some quotes and some evaluations of those, and I believe that those will be helpful both in relation to the lore proper, as well as in applying that lore to modding ... so, I'll fight for my corner, and leave when the pub are closed.

For your information: even though it's very unlikely that Gothmog is an ordinary Orc, doesn't mean that he can't be a Boldog.

Boldogs were evil spirits sometimes taking the form of great Orcs. They were not Orcs, but Spirits taking the shape of Orcs, cf.:

from HoMe X: Origin of Orcs:

Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible form. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible.⁴ Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.*

⁴ ... 'But always among them [Orcs] (as special servants and spies of Melkor, and as leaders) there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes' ...

*) [footnote to the text]:

Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs.

Edited by Námo, 26 January 2011 - 11:34 AM.
restoring quote-tags after forum upgrade