78 replies to this topic

[Madurai]

Solution: Add everything that has a good model and then rage at the lag.

BEST IDEA!

I am warming up my rage muscles ahead of time.

[Madurai]

Put another way:

If you were, for example, building a WW2 flight sim intended to encompass all of air combat from 1939 to 1945, it's just as important to model the CR.42 vs. Gladiator matchup as it is to model Me-262 vs. Meteor.

[johnchm.10]

you bring a good point, but with FS's you have the advantages of having what i would consider a "smaller" game, as you dont have battles that are as large, with as many ships as in S-RTS (Space RTS) games. you could never have dogfights with each side packing 80 squadrons of a dozen fighters. and as of yet, Petroglyph still hasnt released the source code or the engine, which to the best of my knowledge neither is in use at the moment, which makes things a bit more difficult.

[smashedsaturn]

so. we now have an issue that we have to resolve.
ive got one idea that may be a bit complex, but i feel it would satisfy everyone.
step 1: decide upon a ratio of ships to have. like for every CW-era craft added, we add 2 "modern" craft, or 2 CW:3 Modern, etc.
step 2: decide which weight classes of ship need upgrades/updates the most.
step 3: have a run-off vote. each round would last for a day or 2. at which point, the ship with the fewest votes gets canned. each ship would have a more detailed description (stats, usage, etc) (each time a ship passes onto the next round, the description will be copied/pasted). in case of a tie, both ships will be put on a back burner and held until the end of adding all ships, and if possible, one of the ships shall be used to resolve the conflict.
step 4: if in the event a tie still exists or the ratio cant be resolved, then whichever of the ships has a model that the PR staff can get it
step 5: this would run concurrently with step 3 and 4: the PR staff shall approve the ship, or if it is denied, then we have another run off vote, but with that ship removed from the list of candidates.

questions?

Solution: Add everything that has a good model and then rage at the lag.

This lol, the rebellion didn't have many CIS ships because the empire likely decommissioned many of them before the rebellion got a hold of them, there were a few years where the empire had total control in cannon. In PR however the campaigns start earlier, so more clone wars era units would be better.

[johnchm.10]

valid point
counterpoint: with the exception of the few Lucrehulks the early Rebellion would have acquired, a lot of the ex-CIS ships would probably be outclassed by the Victory, Imperial, and Tector classes, let alone anything larger, unless there was a severe numerical advantage on the side of the Rebellion

[Kitkun]

True, but that's still better than the nothing at all they'd have otherwise. (And the first generation Star Destroyers are kind of mediocre too. It's the upgrades where they get scary.)

[smashedsaturn]

valid point
counterpoint: with the exception of the few Lucrehulks the early Rebellion would have acquired, a lot of the ex-CIS ships would probably be outclassed by the Victory, Imperial, and Tector classes, let alone anything larger, unless there was a severe numerical advantage on the side of the Rebellion

counter counter point: would you rather have a dreadnought or 2 vs a victory alone, or one and two old robotic ships to tank damage and launch expendable starfighters?

[skie9173]

One thing to consider is that in the early sandbox campaigns the Rebellion fraction isn't really the same as the proper Rebellion/Alliance from the movies. It is more properly a coalition of forces that the player has control over. Some happen to be former CIS/holdouts, some are just planets politically oppose to the Empire. It only makes sense (in my mind) to give the Rebellion more CIS ships if they are properly representing CIS holdouts/remnants.

One good example of a place that a Providence-class and a Lucrehulk or two would be appropriate would be Mustafar. They wouldn't appropriate at Alderaan or Corellia. just my 2 cents

[Madurai]

One thing to consider is that in the early sandbox campaigns the Rebellion fraction isn't really the same as the proper Rebellion/Alliance from the movies. It is more properly a coalition of forces that the player has control over. Some happen to be former CIS/holdouts, some are just planets politically oppose to the Empire. It only makes sense (in my mind) to give the Rebellion more CIS ships if they are properly representing CIS holdouts/remnants.

One good example of a place that a Providence-class and a Lucrehulk or two would be appropriate would be Mustafar. They wouldn't appropriate at Alderaan or Corellia. just my 2 cents

It's also probably appropriate that they aren't buildable during the campaign, or at the very least, aren't upgradeable very far. This probably should apply to the Recusant, too--which is a shame as it's the coolest-looking of the CIS ships.

[johnchm.10]

yeah, having a few is fine, but i dont want this mod to be filled with TCW ships
in a straight up duel between a Victory-1 and a Recusant (of which i assume would be more common then the Providence or Lucrehulk), the Victory is likely to win, based on the following factors, condition: being in a formal Navy, the Victory is likely to be in pretty good repair, well supplied, and with a well trained crew at full compliment). a Recusant in the service of any ex-CIS or Rebellion control is going to be held together with sweat and duct tape, with a crew that may not be as trained, or the ship may be undermanned.
capabilities: while the Recusant has a long range gun, and the Victory is rather slow, the Victory has 80 Missile Tubes with which to rain hot hell on the Recusant, a small compliment of fighters with which to harass the Recusant, stronger shields to absorb the gun-fire of the Recusant, and the guns of the Victory are better suited towards ship to ship and not ship to starfighter combat
TTD: Tactics, Training, Discipline: the crew of the Victory, having gone through the Military training institutions such as Academies or regular Boot Camp, are going to have better training and familiarity with the systems of the Victory, and her commander has likely had at least a few years on the bridge of his ship, and likely some time on other ships as Captain, let alone when he was just a junior officer. a lot of the Rebellion would likely have been wash-outs of the Services, retired officers, criminals, smugglers, and Idealists. in other words a melting pot where the crew individually has varying degrees of skill, etc


Madurai, thats probably the best idea.
and dont anyone even start about the Dreadnought being older or w/e. they were in production before the clone wars yes, but when they entered Imperial service, they were formally refitted and upgraded. and their production lines, both licensed and not, werent shut down at the end of the Clone Wars, with the destruction of the CIS

[Kitkun]

A perfectly fitted Recusant would have trouble defeating a Victory, for simple expedient of having most of it's firepower dedicated towards anti-fighter guns. Not sure what that actually has to do with this, though. Plus, EaW doesn't really have much of a way to differentiate in crew quality.

Anyways, it is canon that the rebels used CIS ships, and it makes sense there would be separatist hold-outs. Ghost has shown that he can and does make the worlds uniquely populated. (Alderaan in Operation Skyhook even has nonlethal ships refitted entirely with ion cannons and mag-pulse torpedoes. Thrawn Offensive has a number of NR warships converted to cargo hauling. All found nowhere else in the mod.) As far as I'm concerned, the only valid reasons to not add them to the mod in at least some fashion is lack of models and lack of time.

[smashedsaturn]

A perfectly fitted Recusant would have trouble defeating a Victory, for simple expedient of having most of it's firepower dedicated towards anti-fighter guns. Not sure what that actually has to do with this, though. Plus, EaW doesn't really have much of a way to differentiate in crew quality.

Anyways, it is canon that the rebels used CIS ships, and it makes sense there would be separatist hold-outs. Ghost has shown that he can and does make the worlds uniquely populated. (Alderaan in Operation Skyhook even has nonlethal ships refitted entirely with ion cannons and mag-pulse torpedoes. Thrawn Offensive has a number of NR warships converted to cargo hauling. All found nowhere else in the mod.) As far as I'm concerned, the only valid reasons to not add them to the mod in at least some fashion is lack of models and lack of time.

I agree

[skie9173]

For the record I'm not opposed to adding them when there is time, just as starting forces and a few hero transports, not as buildable units.
The Consular-class and its militarized version might be another vessel to add to the list for such units, it would be a good starter unit for the Imps in Outer rim planets.

[johnchm.10]

oddly enough, i have no problem with the Consular from an aesthetics standpoint. and she could be used as an income source, as i imagine that some of her diplomatic capacity could be used for trade negotiations (dont. just dont), treaties, high-level business meetings, etc. the Charger Refit could be upgraded models, with some fictional models in the c-line being under-gunned versions of the c70 refit, in addition to the modded ships from the Stark conflict. or the c70 as a start with successive models being upgraded.
and i imagine that the Consular line wouldnt have stopped with the end of the Clone Wars, as they appear to have some very good longevity, apparently extending around a thousand years if i read the Wookie article right, and i would imagine high numbers, so she could be a producible ship in game.

[Phoenix Rising]

Hate to ruin the party, but adding ships at this point has less to do with desire and more to do with the quality of the model on hand. Basically the last thing I want to do is convert two models for the same unit because the first wasn't good enough (vanilla models excepted).

Actually, Kitkun's idea isn't the worst. As far as strategic mode is concerned, using two different ships has the same cost, in terms of performance, as using a ship and a variant. As long as you have enough graphics memory for tactical (which is bottlenecked by the pop limit), the cost of diversity is pretty low. (That's something to keep in mind when upgrading your rig.)

skie is correct: PRM is an eclectic bunch.

The Mark II Dreadnaught is indeed the Imperial standard.

[johnchm.10]

lol. party pooper. I WILL DESTROY YOU! sorry. I was watching Futurama.

lol. perhaps i will look into purchasing a full-tower desktop and use my laptop only for travel. hell, at the rate things are going....

I guess the overall main problem is that were dealing with a timeline of about 40 years, during which time we see a minor insurgency armed with whatever they can get their hands on, grow into a galactic power with a formal military.
granted the timeline is split into pretty much 4 parts in so far as the universe is concerned (end of clone wars - 2-3 BBY, 2-3 BBY - 9 ABY, 9 ABY- 12 ABY, 12 ABY- 20 ABY), but this being a sand box game kinda disregards that system.
Im starting to see the advantages of the Era System used in the Thrawn's Revenge mod.

honestly, i love the Dreadnought, regardless of the model. the only thing i would change is the acceleration, but even then.

oh, heres a thought. and this is somewhat related to the GUI issue. would there be a way to "retire?" a craft, or remove it from the buildable craft selection? case in point. at a certain point, the usage of the Z-95 falters, with the early model A-wings being equal, then better that the late model Zeds in almost every category save price and perhaps build time. a similar example would be the Barloz and YT-series.

[johnchm.10]

just out of curiosity, if i can find a model of a ship that comes from a different game, would it still be usable?

[evilbobthebob]

That depends entirely on if the game's models can be converted so they can be loaded into 3DS Max for export to the Alamo format.

[P.O._210877]

Ok, I'll say it since it is the obvious choice (for the CW era ships) : The RAW models, are they compatible?

Edited by P.O._210877, 13 August 2012 - 03:49 AM.