67 replies to this topic

[Gil-aglar]

Hey there!

 

I've listed here some alternative Sindarin translations for the elven units in the Woodland Realm faction. However, I want to preface this by stating that I'm a firm believer that art is not a democracy, or a compromise, between artists and their fans. I appreciate how you as creators seek and incorporate feedback from your fans (I'm not a regular presence in the modding community, but from what I hear this is uncommon), and respect that you will always have the final say when it comes to your work.

 

You recently asked the community what they would change if they were in charge of the mod for a day: whilst I have many things I would like to add and to try, a priority of mine would be to tweak the Elvish translations that I've seen from each faction. Below are my alternative Sindarin translations, followed by my reasoning behind the changes.

 

First, I've added a small nuance to the distinction between the Silvan and Greenwood units in their respective translations:

• Silvan Units - Tawarwaith ('Forest-people'), referring to the population of Greenwood at large
• Greenwood Units - Herth Thranduil OR Herth Oropherion (respectively 'House of Thranduil' and 'House of the Son of Oropher'); herth translates as 'troop under a hîr/lord', and seems fitting for the troops recruited from the Royal Barracks

 

Silvan Units - Tawarwaith

• Hunter - Feredir
• Rangers - Ethir / Ethiriath ('Spies' / '[Group of] Spies'; the singular form would be ethir as well); a literal translation would be 'out-watcher', from ed 'out' and tir- 'to watch [over]'. Alternatively, Faradrim could be a workaround of 'rangers' (meaning 'Group of Hunters')
• Wardens - Maethyr ('Warriors', sing. maethor)
• Spears - Aithryn ('Spearmen', sing. aithron)
• Outriders - Edrechyn ('Outriders'); a literal translation formed by analogy of ethir above (ed 'out' and rochon 'rider')

 

Greenwood Units - Herth Thranduil / Herth Oropherion

• Warriors - Megyr ('Swordsmen', sing. magor)
• Archers - Pengryn ('Archers', sing. pengron)
• Slayers - Degnir ('Slayers/Banes', sing. dagnir)
• Guards of the Palace - Thamastirnyr / Tirnyr-e-Thamas ('Hall-watchers' / 'Watchers of the Great Hall'); largely unchanged from the original name, but with a correction on the translation of 'great hall' (and here -e- would be appropriate in the second translation, rather than -en-)
  • Regarding their Shield Wall formation, Thangail! could be used as an attested translation (you can hear Thranduil using it in BotFA). Their return to their default formation could therefore be Lîr! meaning 'Lines!'.
• Sindar Nobles - Erphin-e-Thaur / Roed-e-Thaur (both 'Nobles of the Woods'); from arphen '[a] noble', pl. erphin, and raud 'champion/eminent man', pl. roed (the -e- is again deliberate)

 

Miscellaneous Units

• Gilded Guard of Lasgalen - Gerthyr-en-Rhovannor ('Defenders/Keepers of the Wilderness'); gerthyr 'defender/keeper' (sing. garthor) formed from gartha- 'to defend/keep'
• Prison Guards (summoned from the Cellar Door) - Gadortirnyr / Tirnyr-en-Ngedyr ('Dungeon-watchers' / 'Watchers of the Dungeons'); here, the Prison Guards and Palace Guards share similar names to complement their similar art design
• White Stag - Faenaras ('Radiant-[white]-stag'); possibly Aras Araw / Faenaras Araw ('Stag of Oromë')

 

My reasoning for the changes is as follows: My first priority is a faithfulness both to Tolkien's languages and to your faction plan for the Woodland Realm (particularly the flavour that you're aiming for, near as I can guess). I aimed to capture the spirit of each unit's English gloss in the best Sindarin I could manage, with notable exceptions in the Silvan Rangers (which needed distinguishing from the singular Slivan Hunter) and the Slivan Wardens ('warden' would likely translate as tirnor, which is better suited to the Palace Guards).

 

I also tried to keep the names fairly succinct. When commanding troops on the battlefield, giving orders to each division via a short, easily spoken/understood word or phrase would be more appropriate than using a longer, more descriptive phrase (compare the English names you've given to each unit). It may seem like I'm contradicting myself here with the inclusion of such longer names as the Roed-e-Thaur (Sindar Nobles) and the Gerthyr-en-Rhovannor (Gilded Guard). These can, however, be reduced to the Roed and the Gerthyr ('Nobles' and 'Defenders/Keepers') for use in the heat of battle.

 

Lastly, I want to acknowledge that these changes are inordinately nitpicky. You've already established the internal Lore^TM for the faction and given the elven units a unique identity of their own, and I don't mean to intrude on that. At the very least I hope these can serve as inspiration.

 

Keep up the fantastic work!

Edited by Gil-aglar, 28 August 2020 - 11:00 PM.

[Morannon]

First of all, the new update is something special, really made the game something new with the AI being a Killing machine, really impressive. 

 

Then, playing with Greenwood I noticed that the Royal Barracks's units are as expensive as (for example) The heaavy infantery from Rivendel, and, in comparation they are weaker. Then noticeed that here, the old faction plan said that they would be cheaper, and that makes sense, on someting like 650 or 700.

 

The other thing is that the Guards of the Palace are as expensive as the other Greenwood units, and don't have a limit. When they sould be someting like Mounted Kingsguard from Rohan, somekind of semi-eroic unit, much more expensive, with a top of 3 (or something like that), even they sould be recluitable only when the Tharanduil is recluited. After all they sould be the most elite units in the faction, the king's bodyguards, I would't expect him to allow everyone that honor. 

Even they abilitys work together with Loegolas and his father!

Edited by Morannon, 09 December 2020 - 09:18 PM.

[Dúnedain76]

GW units price change is a result of balance testing. Palace Guard won't be changing roles.

[Nerevar42]

Druids of the Oaken Order are never used by anyone. And that’s a shame, again, the original idea is stunning and their powers very cool. The problem is that they’re really bad because they need unfair amounts of upgrading, micro-managing and grouping for very little rewards in the end. I would highly suggest giving them the ability to strike people on the head with their staff, so they can defend themselves in combat, and making them resilient enough so they can be “abandoned” in a big melee without them dying at lightning speed against low tier units. And 1000 is too expensive to obtain the ability to give a slight buff to a single hero (at least there is the autocast but it is really difficult to micro-manage efficiently).

 

About the speelbook now. Elvenking’s Decree should be switched sides with Elvenking’s Feast in my opinion, because it would make people think a little bit more about which tier 3 they actually want, because Elvenking’s Feast is way more often chosen in multiplayer. Elvenking’s Road is honestly in a position similar as Spell of Concealment for DG in my opinion : great idea, never used. I don’t really know how it could be possible to make this spell more attractive, maybe by giving a proper passive buff to units hanging around the Waystone ?

[Pestum]

Druids of the Oaken Order are never used by anyone. And that’s a shame, again, the original idea is stunning and their powers very cool. The problem is that they’re really bad because they need unfair amounts of upgrading, micro-managing and grouping for very little rewards in the end. I would highly suggest giving them the ability to strike people on the head with their staff, so they can defend themselves in combat, and making them resilient enough so they can be “abandoned” in a big melee without them dying at lightning speed against low tier units. And 1000 is too expensive to obtain the ability to give a slight buff to a single hero (at least there is the autocast but it is really difficult to micro-manage efficiently).

 

About the speelbook now. Elvenking’s Decree should be switched sides with Elvenking’s Feast in my opinion, because it would make people think a little bit more about which tier 3 they actually want, because Elvenking’s Feast is way more often chosen in multiplayer. Elvenking’s Road is honestly in a position similar as Spell of Concealment for DG in my opinion : great idea, never used. I don’t really know how it could be possible to make this spell more attractive, maybe by giving a proper passive buff to units hanging around the Waystone ?

 

As i see the issue with druids of the oaken is no one opens with beorning hut. Why? Is risky if you need to fight cavalry with no pikes. Then you have a building that has no purpouse until you have enough to recruit beornings because invest 2k on a unit like druid is not worth it for what you mentioned. Druids are late game units with small bonuses, expensive, fragile and for bfme micro intensive. 

 

I think the spells are fine the problem is if they require some micro managment. The average player from bfme don´t like to micro, this is the main reason why there are units or spells we don´t see often enough. Sometimes is simply hard to micro with the 5 or 6 ctrl groups you can set you don´t have a quick access at the unit or building.

Elvenking decree is as good and situational as the feast. If you are on favourable position on a fight you take decree in desfavourable fight you take feast. If you choose blindly this put you in disadvantage.

The waystone again micro. Is a situational spell. Grows in power on team matches and big maps and decay on smaller maps like fords of isen. Nontheless i think the cd for teleportation (the waystone skill not the spellbook ability) could be reduced.

Edited by Pestum, 16 June 2021 - 09:04 PM.

[Nerevar42]

Maybe you're right about Druids of the Oaken Order, but I'm not sure that your logic of choosing a specific power in a specific situation applies for Elvenking's Decree, which is simply worst than Elvenking's Feast in my opinion (fast-moving armor buff against 60s of resources per kill, I don't even know how much precisely because I never see it used). It is kind of a "deep delving" equivalent because WR is supposed to hit and run multiple times at the beginning of the game, but it needs you to do something during 60 seconds instead of waiting for your resources to arrive just like with Deep Delving or the Gondor marketplace.

 

The waystone, okay, it is situational but still good. But it doesn't need that much micro, it's just that it is not proactive so you merely can counter anything from your opponent thanks to this power. You can surprise them if you're already in a good position, but if you're in a good position, you want to go for the most powerful spells, such as Elvenking's Feast and the slow, in order to win the next battle and maybe the game by doing so.

 

I would recommend keeping these powers because they're interesting but the fact that they are not giving any direct advantage compared to a lot of other T2s makes them kind of ignored. But maybe this is simply the intrinsic purpose of spells that makes them more or less used every game, with combat abilities more frequent and others more situational.

[Pestum]

About the waystone. Have you ever played starcraft 2? Protoss have the nexus to recall troops from anywhere in the map, the waystone could be used with defensive purpouses too. You misses those 2 destroyers going for your fortress? Waystone and recall some troops to defend. The same with Haldir ability. You wouldn´t use waystone as much as the feast but that doesn´t mean is worst or better.

 

I choose feast over decree most of the time but one beeing better than the other doesn´t mean the other is bad. I often choose decree next to feast. The boost of resources from a 400cp fight is considerable. Is the difference on having Legolas or Thranduil (btw Legolas die faster than he shoot) and we know WR economy is the worst from all factions. Decree is the only boost you have on economy. No upgrades no buildings no hero skills, just that spell from the book to give you some money.

Edited by Pestum, 17 June 2021 - 08:12 AM.

[Nerevar42]

In fact, there is something else that feels strange with WR : Cellar Doors and the tunnel system in general are very rarely used. I think the differences here between WR and MM + Erebor might be :

- the already great movement speed of their infantry (Tauriel and Feren can also boost their speed even more),

- the fact that the Cellar Door is not a base resource structure (MM and Erebor have two good reasons to build mines instead of one),

- the difficulties the faction encounters while harassing buildings or turtling (WR is often harassing units in early game),

- the impressive "tankiness" of late game units that slowly move towards the enemy base without needing teleport to be efficient.

 

I don't really know how should Cellar Doors be played with WR, even though they are interesting overall. I can't remember using it against the AI (due to its general aggressivity), but sadly I don't think there is much more people invested in their use in multiplayer. Is there a way to make them work as intended ?