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Space Wolves Mod (Not Wolf Lords)


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#41 fuggles

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 12:52 AM

Sure, very near to a rough release now - no AI mind - not balanced, but structurally nearly there I think.



#42 Gambit

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 09:27 AM

Excellent.

And of course leave AI to me, but not right now - I have to finish IDH and Unification first!


Edited by Gambit, 16 September 2017 - 09:28 AM.

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#43 fuggles

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 11:13 PM

Okay then, in lieu of any other backup system I present 0.64 beta beta. It lacks AI and any real testing, but you know, see how you get on ymmv.

https://www.mediafir...pace_Wolves.zip



#44 Gambit

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 12:52 PM

WHOA! There are new models!

Dammit, I want to progress this mod as well. Too many excellent mods now to count!


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#45 fuggles

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 02:11 PM

Yup but no howling ^^

I can leave ai to you or chip on myself? I would quite like to see if blood claws can be t0 again.

#46 Gambit

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 04:15 PM

I have some more tasks in Unification, so I will see into this the next week...

Including the howling!

Do whatever you want till then, and then I take it from there. :thumbsuphappy:

 

 

Just remind it to me, because there are so many tasks, and the new school season started and I have some more RL work to attend to...


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#47 Roderick

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 10:28 PM

Ok I understand that it is an alpha for many improvements await and I would like to contribute too.

 

I've just checked the techtree and units, not fighting yet. Therefore I cannot point anything related to the no reinforcement trait.

 

The new models are really cool. I knew of the new boss, the iron priest and the wolf priest but no idea about the Fenrisian wolves. They are really good for what I understand it's a kitbashed model using the warp beasts as a base.

 

I thought of them as possible detectors in case there were some model, so no problem in having them from the early game for this task. They still have a FX of warp when dying. 

 

I'm not sure on having them in the squad of the lord. Anyway, the lord needs to have its new weapons available, like the fancy chainsword.

 

I've seen you have kept the librarian terminator instead of the librarian with the wolf head atop. I could eventually do some kitbash to use this head pelt. 

 

I see that the scouts are t0. They shouldn't because they make the mod too similar to the other SMs. As veterans they start infiltrated, good. The leader makes them visible now. 

 

Bloodclaws are the vanguard. I understand you have some difficulty in balance them because currently they are costly and slow to build. Why is this so? BT mod used a cc marine squad as first capper option so it's possible somehow.

 

Any reason to have the squads composed by seven members? Actually they could be up to 15 bloodclaws, 10 grey and 5 longfangs. Perhaps a research or leveling to enable the initial amount of the pack members if you consider they are too many in the early game?

 

I like the idea of the lone wolf as the terminator with hammer and shield. If only they were available earlier than the rest of terminator squads...

 

I like the remark of wolf guard able to reinforce as they are drawn into their ranks. The terminator squads are also wolf guard so that this is coherent. In case they eventually get a wolf rider (I could do something...) I propose to have just a single squad of terminator wolf guard merging the claws and the ranged weapons.

 

In the lore the packs leaders are wolf guard members send to lead the packs. It fits good with the new rally ability I understand it's going to replace the vanilla one. To be more coherent, the backpack should have the wolves heads, possibly a veteran armor, but this is secondary. 

 

I'm not sure if the wolf guard squad (sternguard in disguise) it's necessary (they are a good bunch now), it doesn't harm thought. They could be summoned by the Lord as part of his personal honor guard.

 

The bloodclaw model need to be changed to another. I don't know if some asset of the Wolf Lords is available anymore. Otherwise, the model of a helmetless cc marine like the codex sergeant could be used as the base to kitbash something more akin for a novice star wolf.

 

Any thoughts on the vehicles? They have a good bunch. If one wants them to have more personality, the SW used to (I don't know if this is allowed anymore) to have leman russ exterminator tanks.

 

The orbital relay currently replicates the menu of the barracks. Is it intended?

 

Fair enough for now. I'm pretty sure you can come up with some interesting researches and powers. It depends on how far one wants to reach. Thuderwolves and wulfen would be the long term objective but they are also the icing on the cake, the mod itself is what we have now.


Edited by Roderick, 19 September 2017 - 10:30 PM.


#48 fuggles

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 07:51 AM

I will tell you about blood claws. As it stands the mechanic is you cannot reinforce, but as each member dies the others get more hp. As you can't reinforce you have to come out full strength.

This creates something of a dilemma. If a full squad appears as a t0 then they roll everything as everyone else is faffing with 5 cultists or 3 scouts. To counter this you could give them a slow build time but then you sit doing nothing until your first squad falls out the hq.

This is partially alleviated if you pick wolves or if you start with a scout squad already on the field as a starting unit accompanied by the servitor. Problem with going wolves is they harass so if blood claws join in it becomes heavy harassment.

Fluff wise, blood claws should be bigger squads than grey hunters, who should be bigger than long claws. Again for balance this is not super if you stick with no reinforcements.

Wolves don't use combat squads but we can't win every battle here.

Possible solution is smaller blood claws squads. Alternatively the sgt could enable recruitment, certainly I would like to reinstate their lightning claws too. There is probably a balance to be had with lower numbers.

Not sure what Templars do but probably have more variables with reinforcement. I could certainly just nerf blood claws hp and number.

As best I can tell the characters are all entitled to take wolves as retinue, so that may be fun.

I can't kitbash the sternguard as whatever I do they ctd. Likewise the new librarian has no animation and I have asked knezeckZ for help who has said there is no problem at his end, which is no help.

We could add a leman with no real issues if that's a thing. I wasn't planning on adding any more powers, maybe summon some more powerful wolves if I reskin then or cloak them.

Wulfen I imagine would be kitbash from PSM. Or if you find them, drowned ones from the old daemons mod, the original one. Swap the head for a marine.

Wasn't especially going to add more powers. I thought the librarian's were pretty good?

#49 Roderick

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:48 AM

Ths is why I suggested to increase the maximum amount allowed for the squads progressively. You can start with four of five bloodclaws with no reinforcement at t0, 8 at t1, 10 at t3 and 15 at t4. Like Imperial guard does.

 

If this isn't enough, then another correction could be an upkeep mechanic which increase the cost of each new squad created. The n+1 th will be more expensive than the n th

 

Additionally, bloodclaws are novice so they are not as better combatants as they potentially be because they are reckless and imprudent and prone to be outwitted. Hence a nerf in their skills could be granted. I would suggest to extend this nerf to the skyclaws (assault marines) they are the craziest bloodclaws and not as expert in assault like the blood angels or other space marines.

 

 

 

Wolves don't use combat squads but we can't win every battle here.

 

huh?

 

 

I will test better the librarian powers. I think I have seen very superficially. The first one throws a single bolt of ice but I haven't seen the effect on a target. The second I think it makes a snow storm in an area but I was testing it in a snow map so it was mostly hidden by the ambient, the third one creates a fog (I think the colour of this FX could veer to a more bluish mist because currently seems smoke, just a little detail that makes a difference)

 

Regarding kitbash I cannot promise anything in short term but from now to end of the year I can work on this to get more helmetless units or decorations, either FFE or going full 3d. If you tell me more about the "drowned ones" (???)  I can look for a werewolf head to stick on them or something. Eventually it would be cool to have wolf riders. More realistically speaking, adding more pelts and wolfish bits on the marines it will be sufficient. The vehicles are nicely customized so that no problem in that area.

 

For a 0.64 version with the compatible ucs, new models (we are very fortunate to have these wolves) and powers and a balance with the no reinforcement they are good to go. Yet for a more visually stunning mod, you eventually need other little stuff to make them more savage and less marine.


Edited by Roderick, 20 September 2017 - 10:04 AM.


#50 fuggles

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 12:17 PM

Drowned ones were wingless furies so dow2 blood letters bodies. I'm not sure there is modifier for minimum squad size?

Combat squad - 5 man teams. I can only make them so crap, they are still Astartes.

#51 Roderick

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 02:45 PM

I tried a casual match against Chaos SM in MoM. They steamrolled and barely I noticed any lose in the squads, I was expecting to see how they compensate the no reinforcement hence I simply created one squad of each type and send them brainlessly after I had amassed enough resources; before that I was keeping the cultists and tacticals with wolves, the lord with wolves and a couple of scouts. No chance to witness the mechanics really. They are either tough or strong enough, also their morale is quite high for bloodclaws and skyclaws, I assume it is the value proportional to a full squad of SM or are their morale values enhanced? For greywolves is quite standard in comparison.

 

I couldn't had more time because I got really tired yesterday.

 

For me the bloodclaws are just like vanilla scouts but with a melee oriented game and better armor, but they should lack in morale or rely better on numbers than the more veteran counterparts.

 

edit: more on this. The same stats whatever they finally are could be applied to the skyclaws as they are an improved version of bloodclaws, they're the same initiates but with a jetpack. This makes me wonder if a bloodclaw research could not grant them a evolution to skyclaws. It could be either a choice between having more units in the pack or having a jump ability. A third choice or research could be applied if the bikes are going to appear. The bloodclaws on bikes are melee oriented and carrying meltabombs, not like other bikers which rely on hit and run ranged combat; they could be a specialization anti-building.


Edited by Roderick, 21 September 2017 - 03:24 PM.


#52 Kekoulis

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 09:32 PM

Brothers,I am using the aforementioned version of the mod by brother fuggles (the one that lacks an AI).

While the models are really good,whenever I start a game,the game crashes.

So before I meddle deep with it myself,please tell me,have I been doing something wrong?

 

And forgive me if I have done something stupid here,but I am always eager to learn from my mistakes.:D


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#53 Gambit

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 09:53 PM

Brother Kekoulis, do you play it unmodded?

Stand-alone works all-right (on the other hand, "unified" it also works pretty OK for me...)

Bottomline I had no issue at all.

 

What winconditions do you use?


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#54 fuggles

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 09:58 PM

Huh. Force commander chain sword turns into the power sword in combat, so that sucks.

I'll try to chuck some attribute changes up tomorrow. Not super keen on the not reinforcement thing, but see what you see.

#55 Roderick

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 10:18 PM

Oddly enough, the no reinforcement in the battlefield would be the most realistic approach compared to the "appearing from nowhere".

 

Doesn't FOK disallow the reinforcement unless being close to LPs?, thus in the battlefield the reinforcement can be disabled and work. It have to be checked if the no LP reinforcement is also possible.



#56 Roderick

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 10:23 PM

This rule is very explicitly stated.

 

 


 

In a typical Codex Chapter, a Neophyte begins his service as a Scout, and, after completing his training and physical transformation into a Space Marine, is assigned to Devastator, Assault, and finally a Tactical Squad.[Needs Citation] By contrast, the Space Wolves' approach reflects the warrior culture of Fenris from which all the Wolves are descended.

 

Blood Claws are Neophyte Space Wolves who have just finished their most basic training and initiation rites, including drinking from the Cup of Wulfen and surviving the Test of Morkai. They receive armament similar to Assault Squads in other chapters – a chainsword and bolt pistol, but they do not normally use jump packs. Instead of being assigned to a single Company, Blood Claws are instead assigned to any one of the Great Companies. Their role is to charge headlong into battle, expending their youthful enthusiasm for battle on the enemy and hopefully learning the lessons of war that will enable them to survive.

 

Skyclaws are reckless trouble makers from the Blood Claw packs, who demonstrate a reckless joy for engaging in close combat, and are "rewarded" with jump packs to aid in their eagerness to charge straight into the line of battle.

 

Grey Hunters are comparable to Tactical Squad marines in other chapters and comprise the majority of any Great Company. These are Blood Claws who have survived the trials on the field of battle, combat experience having made them less impulsive and thus less suited as a force of pure assault. In addition to their combat duties, the Grey Hunters' role is to watch over the Blood Claws, reining in the worst of their reckless behaviour, and marking out those likely for advancement.

 

Long Fangs are the oldest and most experienced Space Wolf warriors, having survived terms of service as both Blood Claws and Grey Hunters. They are analogous to Devastator Squads in other chapters, as they are the only Space Wolves entrusted with the use of the chapter's heavy, long-ranged weaponry.

 

Wolf Guards are the personal retinue and bodyguard of the Wolf Lord commanding the Great Company, roughly equivalent to the Veterans or Command Squad units used by other chapters. Wolf Guards are often the most senior and experienced Space Wolves in the chapter, though a younger Wolf may win elevation to the Wolf Guard by performing an act of exceptional valour. Wolf Guards are often granted Terminator Honours, though they make less use of them than the Veterans of other chapters.

 

Wolf Scouts are Space Wolves whose entire pack has been lost or that have left their pack for other reasons. As natural loners, they are ideally suited to work alone behind enemy lines for long periods of time. Space Wolf Scouts are not assigned to any of the Great Companies. They instead answer directly to the Great Wolf and are under his sole command unless assigned to a Wolf Lord and his company on an as-needed basis.

 

Lone Wolf: Space Wolves do not reinforce their packs when casualties occur and for this reason many squads operate at a reduced strength. Even the most experienced packs will sometimes suffer such a great loss that only one survivor remains from the pack. These survivors are known as Lone Wolves.


Edited by Roderick, 21 September 2017 - 10:23 PM.


#57 fuggles

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 05:18 AM

No-one quibbled that it's a rule, it's whether it is actually fun that's the problem - Likewise the squad should start big and get small. Anyway, WIP attribs:

https://www.mediafir...trib_wolves.zip



#58 Kekoulis

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 06:00 AM

Brother Kekoulis, do you play it unmodded?

Stand-alone works all-right (on the other hand, "unified" it also works pretty OK for me...)

Bottomline I had no issue at all.

 

What winconditions do you use?

The default  ones. Anyways I will re-download and re-install for now.


The Universe might be dark,but I still say keep on being positive!


#59 Gambit

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 06:27 AM

Hmmm... Try again and see. If you still have issues, try -dev and I will look into your warnings to see what is wrong.

 

 

Reinforcement

Well, this was something that stroke me as un-fluffy as well, brother Roderick. The FOK approach was better, and much more strategic - it was giving buildings a much more important role.

 

So... I could make a wincondition to support it:

1] A global enable reinforcement -0.5 to all players would do the trick on all squads (that World Race Squads SCaR of mine proved to be more than useful!!).

2] But it would be tricky to force the enable reinforcement +1 to all buildings, VIA AN AOE ability, with pure SCaR.

3] The AI should also return to buildings to reinforce - and this requires that "broken rule" where squads retreat to LPs...

 

Let me check - a new strategic WinCon is forming :twisted:


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#60 fuggles

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 08:36 AM

If everyone had it, would that not devalue the mechanic in the wolves mod?

Anyway try the attributes and see. Reinforcements could be sgt linked probably, or we could fok them. It's certainly a thing watching a 1000hp marine going down swinging.




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