376 replies to this topic

[CLAlstar]

But thors do have anti ground splash.

At critical mass any kind of unit can win even vs their counters. Welcome to the game.

 

Not to mention most of the "ptera op" complaints i hear after A) long games B) team games C) both. Coronia is just better at snowballing than other factions.

[Death_Kitty]

But thors do have anti ground splash.

At critical mass any kind of unit can win even vs their counters. Welcome to the game.

 

Not to mention most of the "ptera op" complaints i hear after A) long games B) team games C) both. Coronia is just better at snowballing than other factions.

1.) Negligible splash. Plus they don't do much damage to vehicles. 

2.) when BOTH AA AND THORS/HOUNDS are at critical mass AA wins. So both units. Read my posts. 

3.) These would both be acceptable reasons to remove ptera AoE. Just because you don't see them, doesn't mean others don't. 

[Divine]

But thors do have anti ground splash.

At critical mass any kind of unit can win even vs their counters. Welcome to the game.

 

Not to mention most of the "ptera op" complaints i hear after A) long games B) team games C) both. Coronia is just better at snowballing than other factions.

That's not true, tho, ground units are effected by chokepoints, awkward path finding, and they can't stack. Overwhelming hard counters requires mobility too, and ground units are only second to fliers. The amount of firepower they can concentrate is limited, and can't go above a certain amount, no matter how many are there.

Edited by Divine, 16 February 2018 - 11:51 PM.

[TeslaCruiser]

But thors do have anti ground splash.

At critical mass any kind of unit can win even vs their counters. Welcome to the game.

 

Not to mention most of the "ptera op" complaints i hear after A) long games B) team games C) both. Coronia is just better at snowballing than other factions.

What? who is massing thors? Even if you mass wolfhounds they are not capable of doing what the pteras do, not even close. What else? Invaders? Yeah invader spam happen all the time don't you see it guys? This is fine

 

Why it is ok for a faction to reach a point were counters stop working? Why this can't be addressed like previous spam problems were?

Edited by TeslaCruiser, 17 February 2018 - 12:39 AM.

[PACER]

Cutting Pters' splash by half would make this unit almost useless and would cripple Coronia's presents tactics. Perhaps we should consider other forms of nerf to make it less versatile in combat.

 

1. Disable fire-on-moving. This can help reducing Pter-Buzzer blobs, and massed Pters will have trouble shooting.

 

2. Decrease speed, noticeably, but not to the point where it can be kited.

 

3. Let it use a modified version of swordfish's weapon, which has a projectile and jumps between targets just like lancer's for an unstable AoE effect.

Edited by PACER, 17 February 2018 - 03:29 AM.

[Death_Kitty]

 

But thors do have anti ground splash.

At critical mass any kind of unit can win even vs their counters. Welcome to the game.

 

Not to mention most of the "ptera op" complaints i hear after A) long games B) team games C) both. Coronia is just better at snowballing than other factions.

What? who is massing thors? Even if you mass wolfhounds they are not capable of doing what the pteras do, not even close. What else? Invaders? Yeah invader spam happen all the time don't you see it guys? This is fine

 

Why it is ok for a faction to reach a point were counters stop working? Why this can't be addressed like previous spam problems were?

 

 

THANK YOU TESLA CRUISER. Someone on my side. (and you too divine) 

Cutting Pters' splash by half would make this unit almost useless and would cripple Coronia's presents tactics. Perhaps we should consider other forms of nerf to make it less versatile in combat.

 

1. Disable fire-on-moving. This can help reducing Pter-Buzzer blobs, and massed Pters will have trouble shooting.

 

2. Decrease speed, noticeably, but not to the point where it can be kited.

 

3. Let it use a modified version of swordfish's weapon, which has a projectile and jumps between targets just like lancer's for an unstable AoE effect.

 

"Cutting Pters' splash by half would make this unit almost useless and would cripple Coronia's presents tactics."- That's bad game design. If removing a single units splash while compensating with other buffs (damage) cripples a unit/ a faction then that units is crap and that faction's tactics are cheese. NOT AN EXCUSE TO KEEP THE UNITS AS IS.

As to the rest of you nerfs, they don't solve the problem at all. 

 

1.) It wont reduce anything. Pters will not have trouble shooting, b/c as air units THEY CAN STACK and this still doesn't solve the problem of being air mobile and having splash. 

 

2.) So whats the point? If you increase the speed to where it cant be kited, what do you accomplish? You just make the unit annoying to use, while still keeping it OP. 

 

3.) Swordfish gets unstable AoE b/c UNLIKE THE PTERA, its not a flying, stacking units. You're trying to use Disney bucks at a Caesars palace. That unstable AoE will just become equally as cancer once critical mass is reached. 

 

None of your changes stop spammed pteras from eventually countering their counters. Their HARD counter. All these do is delay crit mass a bit if that. 

 

" Perhaps we should consider other forms of nerf to make it less versatile in combat."- How is the ptera a versatile unit? Cant hit air, sucks vs infantry, sucks vs buildings. Its not versatile, its too good at in niche roll: killing vehicles. You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Remove the splash, force the ptera to respect AA vehicles. Are you telling the WoC don't have the tools to deal with AA blob? Nano synced infantry, roadrunners, Harbinger, Eureka, Tarchia? What none of this works at all? My only response is: do you even do anything but spam pteras then? Do you even play the faction? 

[CLAlstar]

DeathKitty:

So, in your book unit must be nerfed because enemy managed to get critical number of them after very long game because others let him do that? Thats a terrible reasoning.

 

 

"Cutting Pters' splash by half would make this unit almost useless and would cripple Coronia's presents tactics."- That's bad game design.

Reminder: for you every single unit with splash = bad unit design.

 

 

If removing a single units splash while compensating with other buffs (damage) cripples a unit/ a faction then that units is crap and that faction's tactics are cheese.

Are you sure you know the definition of cheese?

 

 

[disable fire on the move] 1.) It wont reduce anything. Pters will not have trouble shooting, b/c as air units THEY CAN STACK and this still doesn't solve the problem of being air mobile and having splash.

It would actually work fyi. What you wrote makes no sense whatsoever - the autotargeting allows player to just fly around enemy forces and pteranodons will auto attack whatever they have in range. Their stacking would make it worse for them.

 

 

[decrease speed] 2.) So whats the point? If you increase the speed to where it cant be kited, what do you accomplish? You just make the unit annoying to use, while still keeping it OP.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe the fact that they wont be able to easily disengage?

 

 

3.) Swordfish gets unstable AoE b/c UNLIKE THE PTERA, its not a flying, stacking units. You're trying to use Disney bucks at a Caesars palace. That unstable AoE will just become equally as cancer once critical mass is reached.

I'll leave this without comment because apparently you cant be pleased.

 

 

None of your changes stop spammed pteras from eventually countering their counters. Their HARD counter. All these do is delay crit mass a bit if that.

And you think your suggestion to remove the magikarp tendenceis out of ptera are the best? All you have said was "remove splash" while others wanted to make it easier to intercept them even when hit and running.They gotta be automaticly wrong in your book too, right?

 

But wait. Then comes this.

 

" Perhaps we should consider other forms of nerf to make it less versatile in combat."- How is the ptera a versatile unit? Cant hit air, sucks vs infantry, sucks vs buildings. Its not versatile, its too good at in niche roll: killing vehicles. You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Remove the splash, force the ptera to respect AA vehicles. Are you telling the WoC don't have the tools to deal with AA blob? Nano synced infantry, roadrunners, Harbinger, Eureka, Tarchia? What none of this works at all? My only response is: do you even do anything but spam pteras then? Do you even play the faction?

How is ptera NOT a versatile unit?

- Fast, can easily access most of map in short time

- 850hp armor class heavy, allows to tank most of threats

- splash damage

- designed to be capable of firing on the move

 

"Cant hit air" - Wow, its almost as if some of factions had an actual counters against them! Unless hounds, thors, alanqas and gehennas do not exist.

"sucks vs buildings" - their damage vs buildings seem like shit because its area of effect is reduced vs structures. Which makes single tile defenses best fare against them.

"Are you telling the WoC don't have the tools to deal with AA blob? Nano synced infantry, roadrunners, Harbinger, Eureka, Tarchia?" - Insert the "counter to your counter" cliche. RRers are nerfed already. Nobody uses Tarchia and Eureka.

"My only response is: do you even do anything but spam pteras then?" - No, because usually im not in position to safely spam masses of them and so cant my enemy and im playing mostly 1v1s lately since im kicked out of bigger games for not using my real name for sake of "we dont know you, you will lag"

"Do you even play the faction?" - Yes, since first day of beta access.

 

Oh, and regarding the "latin vs coronia" - Been there, done that, saw others doing that. JackoDerp and BlackSnow may have something to say about this.

 

TC:

 

Why it is ok for a faction to reach a point were counters stop working? Why this can't be addressed like previous spam problems were?

As if Coronia was the only one with that problem. Why not adress the fact that PsiCorps can reach the part of game where it can just a-move with all the brutes, archers and masterminds into enemy and win? How about mass Abrams spam of USA? Giant/Godsbane/KF/Mastodon of Last Bastion?

 

Regarding "why not spam X"? The main reason for which mass Wolfhound/Thor is not a thing is nonexistant/mediocre damage vs defenses. In 3.0 the main reason for russia popularity was the fact that hounds could just shred all defenses. And invader too can win upon reaching critical number, but they are more for utility than actual damage unlike other mentions.

[Destroyencio]

Latin vs Coronia is a bitch to play, I'm aware of that.

 

What I would suggest you is to garrison Flak Troopers in some of the Catastrophes (Desos in other because of the infantry too) and rush Iron Curtain. 

 

Coronia has an hyper snowball effect in Late game. Harassing with those tools I mentioned it's a must as soon as you reach T3.

Edited by Destroyencio, 17 February 2018 - 10:08 AM.

[Nicholas Chau]

this is what i think of the changelog:

 

Allies: meh although the suppressor buff baffles me to an extend. :# the most interesting changes are the new IFV combos that i could get 

Soviets: initially I am not happy with apocalypse AA nerf but after seeing a side by side comparison of AA firepower with apocalypse and grumble( thanks to terminal velocity), i think it's best that the apoc's AA power need some tweaking/nerfing.

             other than that the changes are alright and acceptable.

Epsilon: pleased with scorpion cell buffs but other than that meh. 

Foehn: despite my complaints about shadrays, so far i think foehn is surprisingly balanced since i discovered that shadrays aren't that effective against vehicles because when i use them against ground vehicles they have to supposedly

            "lock on" before shooting. but they could still use tweaking here and there though for pteranodons i don't think they really need that much nerfing; but i leave it to the mentalmeisters staff to handle balancing for coronia.

 

i have two questions though:

1) will scavengers get new combos in regards to new IFV combos?

2) what will happen to angelshark? since the Whipray has a confusion ray also.

Edited by Nicholas Chau, 17 February 2018 - 02:02 PM.

[StolenTech]

i have two questions though:

1) will scavengers get new combos in regards to new IFV combos?

2) what will happen to angelshark? since the Whipray has a confusion ray also.

1- No.
2- Whipray's confusion is only AA while angle shark will only be able to confuse units at sea.

[TeslaCruiser]

Why it is ok for a faction to reach a point were counters stop working? Why this can't be addressed like previous spam problems were?

As if Coronia was the only one with that problem. Why not adress the fact that PsiCorps can reach the part of game where it can just a-move with all the brutes, archers and masterminds into enemy and win? How about mass Abrams spam of USA? Giant/Godsbane/KF/Mastodon of Last Bastion?

 

Regarding "why not spam X"? The main reason for which mass Wolfhound/Thor is not a thing is nonexistant/mediocre damage vs defenses. In 3.0 the main reason for russia popularity was the fact that hounds could just shred all defenses. And invader too can win upon reaching critical number, but they are more for utility than actual damage unlike other mentions.

Why haven't you realized the discussion is about air units? It has been mentioned many times. No other air unit can work the way pteranodon do. Unlimited mobility + unlimited firepower. Why this can't be addressed?

[CLAlstar]

Oh, so problem of factions being broken to point where counters arent counters anymore counts only for those with air units? Sorry, didnt knew that. Glad to know i can continue my usual long game PsiCorps shenanigans without feeling that its imbalanced.

[TeslaCruiser]

So we can't address a problem because we have these other problems according to you? and no, a PC late blob is not uncounterable neither unbalanced that was 3.0. Abrams spam can be deal with various SFs at least, and you will always have a fighting chance -epsilon MC/Foehn stuff/any t3 allied army+hb/soviet tanks+IC. LB late blob? those are slow AF at least.

[Death_Kitty]

@Alstar: You know, the more time I spend responding to you, the more I'm convinced you don't even read and think about my posts.
 

DeathKitty:
So, in your book unit must be nerfed because enemy managed to get critical number of them after very long game because others let him do that? Thats a terrible reasoning.

1.) Define a long game. 2.) Considering the counter-complaints you make later, I'm not even going to bother responding to this.
 

 

"Cutting Pters' splash by half would make this unit almost useless and would cripple Coronia's presents tactics."- That's bad game design.

Reminder: for you every single unit with splash = bad unit design.

 

What? When have I ever said this? This is taking me completely out of context. You know what I have a problem with? A flying unit with splash that counters its hard counters. Last time i checked, there is only one of those. I'm ok with all types of artillery, all the AoE ground units in the game, even the air siege units, hell even the diverbee and the buzzard. I don't appreciate this comment alstar. And you know what: if nerfing an OP unit makes a faction UP/useless, that IS BAD GAME DESIGN. 
 

 

If removing a single units splash while compensating with other buffs (damage) cripples a unit/ a faction then that units is crap and that faction's tactics are cheese.

Are you sure you know the definition of cheese?

 

Well, I would consider abusing an OP unit for victory "cheese", which may be misusing the term, fair enough, but I was counting on you to get the point based on the context, but judging by some of you responses, I may be wrong in that regard.
 

 

[disable fire on the move] 1.) It wont reduce anything. Pters will not have trouble shooting, b/c as air units THEY CAN STACK and this still doesn't solve the problem of being air mobile and having splash.

It would actually work fyi. What you wrote makes no sense whatsoever - the autotargeting allows player to just fly around enemy forces and pteranodons will auto attack whatever they have in range. Their stacking would make it worse for them.

 

This just raises the skill ceiling of the unit slightly. It might turn the favor of battles involving AA with AoE, like the sentinel, but otherwise it just results in the pteras taking more damage before they blob up and use their magicarp tendencies to murder all the offending AA. 
 

 

[decrease speed] 2.) So whats the point? If you increase the speed to where it cant be kited, what do you accomplish? You just make the unit annoying to use, while still keeping it OP.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe the fact that they wont be able to easily disengage?

 

 
*sigh* OK, lets think about this: this nerf does nothing b/c: "If you increase the speed to where it cant be kited": means the ptera is still at least slightly faster than the AA "chasing it", it can still disengage easily, it just get punished for over committing into an AA ball. As long as you use terrain and stay on the edges of what you are attacking, the same thing results. Raises the skill ceiling of the unit, but does not solve the base issue. 
 

 

3.) Swordfish gets unstable AoE b/c UNLIKE THE PTERA, its not a flying, stacking units. You're trying to use Disney bucks at a Caesars palace. That unstable AoE will just become equally as cancer once critical mass is reached.

I'll leave this without comment because apparently you cant be pleased.

 

Belive it or not, I can be pleased. Really simple too. Remove the god damn AoE.
 

 

None of your changes stop spammed pteras from eventually countering their counters. Their HARD counter. All these do is delay crit mass a bit if that.

And you think your suggestion to remove the magikarp tendenceis out of ptera are the best? All you have said was "remove splash" while others wanted to make it easier to intercept them even when hit and running.They gotta be automaticly wrong in your book too, right?

 

 
By the nature of most AA units being ground based, and by the equal nature of pteras being air units, and by the very nature of coronia armies being more that one unit, The simplest option is to just remove the AoE. This does not make others wrong, Its just I disagree with these nerfs, and prefer my idea. So perhaps I WAS WRONG about what PACER proposed, but I don't think it will be effective in as many situations as just not having the AoE in the first place. 
 

But wait. Then comes this.

" Perhaps we should consider other forms of nerf to make it less versatile in combat."- How is the ptera a versatile unit? Cant hit air, sucks vs infantry, sucks vs buildings. Its not versatile, its too good at in niche roll: killing vehicles. You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Remove the splash, force the ptera to respect AA vehicles. Are you telling the WoC don't have the tools to deal with AA blob? Nano synced infantry, roadrunners, Harbinger, Eureka, Tarchia? What none of this works at all? My only response is: do you even do anything but spam pteras then? Do you even play the faction?

How is ptera NOT a versatile unit?
- Fast, can easily access most of map in short time
- 850hp armor class heavy, allows to tank most of threats
- splash damage
- designed to be capable of firing on the move
"Cant hit air" - Wow, its almost as if some of factions had an actual counters against them! Unless hounds, thors, alanqas and gehennas do not exist.
"sucks vs buildings" - their damage vs buildings seem like shit because its area of effect is reduced vs structures. Which makes single tile defenses best fare against them.
"Are you telling the WoC don't have the tools to deal with AA blob? Nano synced infantry, roadrunners, Harbinger, Eureka, Tarchia?" - Insert the "counter to your counter" cliche. RRers are nerfed already. Nobody uses Tarchia and Eureka.
"My only response is: do you even do anything but spam pteras then?" - No, because usually im not in position to safely spam masses of them and so cant my enemy and im playing mostly 1v1s lately since im kicked out of bigger games for not using my real name for sake of "we dont know you, you will lag"
"Do you even play the faction?" - Yes, since first day of beta access.
 
Oh, and regarding the "latin vs coronia" - Been there, done that, saw others doing that. JackoDerp and BlackSnow may have something to say about this.

 

 
Lets go back to definitions = Versatile: able to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities. Ok, how does that describe the ptera? The stuff you names is not versatility, its just what makes the unit good at its niche role of killing vehicles/why its OP. It has 1 function, and it does it too well. Nerfing health, fire on the move, speed... that makes the unit feel weak, clunky, bad for QoL. I don't want to see that happen b/c, believe it of not, I love the concept of coronia. An RTS faction based on highly specialized air units, each with a niche role. It new, fresh, and something I'd love to see done well, and it mostly is. The ptera should be good at a niche roll: killing non AA armor, while still being vulnerable to AA. Killing AA should fall to ground based compositions like RR, tarchia, Eureka. That way, Balance is easily achieved, or at least within reach. Why are the tarchia/ eureka useless? b/c the pteranodon overlaps they niche roles, and does them better. The RR will still be useful post nerf i think, and if tarchia and eureka are useless, then BUFF THEM! Give them the role of killing AA for the air units. I am not opposed to this in the least. 
 
So in retrospect, I guess you are right about the versatility, but in a different way. It niche is armor, but its versatility in killing said armor is to much. The nerfs suggested by PACER will probably have an effect on the units, but it will still be gimmicky and iffy at times because no matter what you do, there will be an instance where the AoE hit enough vehicles to trade off enough AA where lancers/RR/whateverelse can clean it up, leaving you open to quetzals. It should take more than 1 unit to do that. 
 

TC:

Why it is ok for a faction to reach a point were counters stop working? Why this can't be addressed like previous spam problems were?

As if Coronia was the only one with that problem. Why not adress the fact that PsiCorps can reach the part of game where it can just a-move with all the brutes, archers and masterminds into enemy and win? How about mass Abrams spam of USA? Giant/Godsbane/KF/Mastodon of Last Bastion?
 
Regarding "why not spam X"? The main reason for which mass Wolfhound/Thor is not a thing is nonexistant/mediocre damage vs defenses. In 3.0 the main reason for russia popularity was the fact that hounds could just shred all defenses. And invader too can win upon reaching critical number, but they are more for utility than actual damage unlike other mentions.

 

With regards to Psi-blobs, I don't have much trouble with those. Constant fury drone, hail-fox shenanigans, buratino makes it a difficult matchup, but a possible one. (I also never put anything in my Catas or build desolators here for a good reason), and with regards to the abrams and LB concerns, I agree completely. That doesn't mean my issue does not deserve a resolution. Just the way i see it you have a unit too good at an intended role, and 2 perfectly good units that can be buffer/reworked to fit into part of  that role. What is wrong with taking that opportunity? 

Edited by Death_Kitty, 17 February 2018 - 07:03 PM.

[CLAlstar]

Long game means exactly what it means. Long game. Where game turns into more of a "Efficient trades" with "Big numbers of units on the field" instead of economy play.

 

You did said that splash is a bad unit design several posts ago. I was the one who called you out on this. How else id got Magikarp meme out of this.

 

Cheese is implying risky early game strategies to catch enemy with his pants down to secure yourself a quick victory. Good cheese can either hamper enemy in early game, deny him tech or even straight win you the match.

 

The no fire on the move would actually help greatly, mainly because of minimalized hit and run. No more "lemme just pass by while getting some kills".

 

The "Ptera will be still faster than AA chasing it" doesnt change the fact that they will stay longer in the range of AA. Which may turn into extra shot at them. Now imagine the potential with previous change.

 

Tarchia/Eureka are getting buffs btw. Not sure if Eureka's one was necessary, since she killed most of units on the ground in 1-2 waves. Its just the fact that noone bothers to use her. If i had to modify something about Pteranodon, it would be massively reduced damage vs infantry even than it is now. Because having air unit that specializes at vs vechicles which for some reason does jack shit damage to AA units would be stupid from any sense of logic that MO have.

 

And regarding to PsiBlobs, i think i have one of games on my HDD where i spectated PsiCorps vs Latin. It ended up badly for Confeds because of playing over time. Prime example of faction reaching critical blob stage. With exactly the scenario you wrote.

[Death_Kitty]

Long game means exactly what it means. Long game. Where game turns into more of a "Efficient trades" with "Big numbers of units on the field" instead of economy play.

 

You did said that splash is a bad unit design several posts ago. I was the one who called you out on this. How else id got Magikarp meme out of this.

 

Cheese is implying risky early game strategies to catch enemy with his pants down to secure yourself a quick victory. Good cheese can either hamper enemy in early game, deny him tech or even straight win you the match.

 

The no fire on the move would actually help greatly, mainly because of minimalized hit and run. No more "lemme just pass by while getting some kills".

 

The "Ptera will be still faster than AA chasing it" doesnt change the fact that they will stay longer in the range of AA. Which may turn into extra shot at them. Now imagine the potential with previous change.

 

Tarchia/Eureka are getting buffs btw. Not sure if Eureka's one was necessary, since she killed most of units on the ground in 1-2 waves. Its just the fact that noone bothers to use her. If i had to modify something about Pteranodon, it would be massively reduced damage vs infantry even than it is now. Because having air unit that specializes at vs vechicles which for some reason does jack shit damage to AA units would be stupid from any sense of logic that MO have.

 

And regarding to PsiBlobs, i think i have one of games on my HDD where i spectated PsiCorps vs Latin. It ended up badly for Confeds because of playing over time. Prime example of faction reaching critical blob stage. With exactly the scenario you wrote.

 

Well, LC is getting some much needed buffs. Especially to fury drones.

 

I never said that splash was bad game design. I went back and re-read all my post to make sure. I've even clarified that I'm ok with splash damage on all units except for the ptera. No clue why you still bring this up. Or why its relevant either... you going for my credibility here or what? 

 

Cheese is not the right term then... I'll go for cheap tactic... better?

 

"The no fire on the move would actually help greatly, mainly because of minimalized hit and run. No more "lemme just pass by while getting some kills"."

Not really. The problem I'm looking at isn't that pteras are swinging by and sniping large clumps of AA (a problem that would be solved by removing AoE btw) The problem is that once you start playing against WoC, you are on a soft timer before they build enough of these things to a-move into you AA and murder it all. And the quetzals kill your base, and buzzards kill you infantry. Tank away the fire on the move and you still have a 850 hp unit that takes 3-4 hits to kill an AA unit, plus a fairly large AoE with no damage drop off. At least that is the problem I face. 

 

If you want to kill speed and FotM at the same time, again, that just punishes for committing too early. I shouldn't have to rely on my opponent screwing up to win a fight. Plus it seems the unit would be clunky and not fun if you did that. 

 

I don't get why people don't use the Eureka or the tarchia, but i don't think they will be used at all. B.C the pteranodon and quetzal do both their jobs far better, for less gimmick and more a-move. They fly too. 

 

As for psicorps: well what does this have to do with WoC? I mean, if a similar thing is happening where PC reaches an unstoppable death ball, the answer is pretty simple, isn't it? Nerf. Abrams definitely needs one. That plus areoblaze plus tanya IFV (thank god that's gone) was way too good of a general purpose comp. 

 

But at this point I'm sick of debating. Judging how much resistance I'm meeting from people connected to the development of the mod, I'm gonna hazard a guess and say I'm fighting a losing battle. But please help me understand: Why are you guys so intent on keeping the ptera AoE? I don't get it. Its not like WoC is on the verge of uselessness... it one of the stronger subfactions out there. They still have some many good units: zorbs, RR, Eureka, Quetzal, Tarchia, some of which could be an option to fill an anti AA roll... I'm just asking why not? Help me understand your PoV. I mean, I don't like having to race to kill a faction before they deathball (Unless SC, but they are good at it)... I'm not saying its the only such subfaction, but it is the one that stands out the most to me. 

[PACER]

Removing Magikarp damage from Pters makes them inferior to Wolfhounds in almost every way. Wolves have 300% damage output, can attack air units, are decent against infantry, and are cheaper even without IP. What gives Pters a chance is faster speed and ability to fire on the move, exactly what you considered useless.
 

And you know what: if nerfing an OP unit makes a faction UP/useless, that IS BAD GAME DESIGN. 

Try nerfing Marines in either Starcraft 1 or 2. Wow bad game design.

[PACER]

From my point of view the biggest problem with Pters is that they are far too easy to use. A simple move command demands your opponent to micro much more (this applies to other debated units such as Salamanders and Apocs). Pters' overall stat deserves a nerf but is not overwhelmingly OP.

[Divine]

IMHO Foehn is a trainwreck of a faction, and WoC just emphasises it the most. Think of the RTS calculus. WoC relies on an army of flying units, giving them guerilla-tier mobility, with powerhouse firepower and armour. This is not OK. I'd say that giving a healthy nerf to Pteranodon is a good start, but much more rebalancing will be needed. Flying artillery that can move around the map freely, have tanky armor, and obscene firepower? Also, while the Buzzard is a balanced unit by itself, it just happens to cover the weakness of other flying units. Buzzard+Quetzal+Ptera+Alanqua blob can counter each and every threat on the battlefield, all of these have good armor the very least, they all fly. Ground units like Zorbs just add insult to the injury... 

 

Remember General Granger (the Air Force General) from Zero Hour? Combat Chinooks were broken, but at the very least, fixed wing aircraft relied on airfields, giving the general a highly mobile and powerful army, but also a vulnerability that could be exploited mercilessly. I don't think WoC can be addressed with simple nerfs or stat rebalances, without adding a fatal weakness to the faction as a whole to counter the combination of their firepower and mobility. Perhaps binding Pteras and even Quetzals to a helipad-like structure would do the trick?

Edited by Divine, 18 February 2018 - 12:20 PM.

[XoGamer]

The stem of the problem, has nothing to do with pters.

 

It has to do with Foehn in general. They are asymmetrically balanced which means that whilst all the original factions have dogs and infantry that are weak to dogs - foehn says fuck that, my infantry are immune to dogs but balanced by "I have no dogs". This creates an immediate unbalance in the factions. They are either all fundamentally different as in this sense, or they are all the same - the game is either symmetrically balanced or asymmetrically balanced.

 

Saying that Foehn's OP lategame tools are balanced by the fact that they are very vulnerable early game is not balance. It creates a spiral, there will always be people complaining about how pter spam is overpowered and the damage is too high etc., and when the nerf happens, other people will be complaining about how shitty the early game is to compensate for the nerf.

 

In other words, you will never reach a good level of balance in this state, and the game will only be balanced when the best players play the game, who know how the game works and know all the tricks but this a big middle finger to the new players who will need to learn a completely different playstyle just for a single new faction, only because it is missing dogs and has super-durable infantry and it is likely to make most new players straight up quit from all the bullshit Harbingers, roadrunners and finalize.

 

Solutions:

1) Nerf the health & increase price so that Pters become more like a glass cannon.

2) Decrease price, reduce AOE slightly but maybe increase damage and remove attacking whilst moving (decrease of price should be justified to about $1800) so that they are more like assault helicopter.

3) Reduce speed & AOE, increase health to make it more like a flying tank.

 

 

IMHO Foehn is a trainwreck of a faction, and WoC just emphasises it the most. Think of the RTS calculus. WoC relies on an army of flying units, giving them guerilla-tier mobility, with powerhouse firepower and armour. This is not OK. I'd say that giving a healthy nerf to Pteranodon is a good start, but much more rebalancing will be needed. Flying artillery that can move around the map freely, have tanky armor, and obscene firepower? Also, while the Buzzard is a balanced unit by itself, it just happens to cover the weakness of other flying units. Buzzard+Quetzal+Ptera+Alanqua blob can counter each and every threat on the battlefield, all of these have good armor the very least, they all fly. Ground units like Zorbs just add insult to the injury... 

 

Remember General Granger (the Air Force General) from Zero Hour? Combat Chinooks were broken, but at the very least, fixed wing aircraft relied on airfields, giving the general a highly mobile and powerful army, but also a vulnerability that could be exploited mercilessly. I don't think WoC can be addressed with simple nerfs or stat rebalances, without adding a fatal weakness to the faction as a whole to counter the combination of their firepower and mobility. Perhaps binding Pteras and even Quetzals to a helipad-like structure would do the trick?

This sounds like a good idea. All the Foehn helicopters to be build from a helipad. Perhaps editing the cyberkernel to also be a helipad?
 

Edited by XoGamer, 18 February 2018 - 12:33 PM.