113 replies to this topic

[link.the.first]

Vanguard said he was going to remove the carrying abilities of the Chinook so it is strictly a supply unit. The Blackhawk will only be able to carry infantry. This means the USA becomes the only side besides the Militia to be unable to get vehicles over water without bridges, since China has the Helix and the GLA has tunnel networks. The only way to get an airborne vehicle transport is by capturing a tech airfield. What do you guys think?

[Ace22]

Bad idea. Remember the superweapon's map in the challenge mode?

[link.the.first]

Exactly.

[Jsmooth13]

I third the motion

[Vanguard]

Yeah that map is one of the exceptions, but it's still being removed for balance. And you do know we are getting new gen challenge maps. Even though he put this in a poll, and it's pointless on whatever the outcome is it's still getting removed.

Either that or I remove all blackhawks, completely from the game.

Edited by Vanguard, 31 December 2005 - 04:54 AM.

[link.the.first]

Anyone here think creating a hole in a side is the way to balance? What if there are tech oil derrecks on an island, but no tech defenses? The USA can't reinforce the area with anything but infantry, but China can airdrop a dozer and GLA can use a tunnel net to get a worker over there.

[Jsmooth13]

That doesn't make any sense at all Vanguard!!!! balance??? Balance my ass. the USA has no use without being able to get over bridges!!! and like in Mountain Guns.,.. If your facing all Hard in you wanna get to that Drop Zone the only way u can do it is with those chinooks carrying Dozers over there to make Defenses, plus, if you made the Blackhawk able to have vehicles its still a hit or miss thing (sometimes you get a troop carrier, sometimes you get a assault helicopter. I strongley disagree with you on this point.. without transport of troops and equipment our military is dead. How about you remove all our C-5s and our C-130s and C-17s ?? Think we'd still be such a great military power???? No..

[Vanguard]

Ummm that's what balance is. The GLA are weak, that's their hole. China is slow and are expensive, that's their hole, the US has no transports. A hole is balance, stop complaining about them having a hole. It's either this or them being the most powerful AF side in the game and completely unfair. Oh and they do have a transport, it's called the Sea Devil, it means that the Tech Airfield now has a use, BTW you can actually thank link for the desicion I came to, since he said that there isn't a use for it since it's so small, and that he never uses it. Well no you have something on it that makes it useful.

[link.the.first]

Exactly. What good are a bunch of shiny, expensive tanks with scram shells and composite armor if you can't get them to the enemy base? Defense? Please. By the time they get to the area the Helixes drop the tanks or the Tunnel Network appears they already have a strong postion. That's kind of hard with infantry, especially since the Chinese and GLA have some pretty effective ways of killing infantry.

[Jsmooth13]

so ur saying that the USA isn't expensive??? And BTW, how many maps have a tech airfield that i can use????'Cause if this is your decision maybe their should be one on each map

[Vanguard]

And since link didn't post the whole thing like I told him to I will.

.:Vanguard:. says:
Doesn't matter to me really, you should see the new tech structure that I'm working on
Travis says:
what's that?
.:Vanguard:. says:
The Arclite Cannon, basically fires a large shell twice the range of the Tech Artillery Cannon, if it hits, it can kill an Overlord in one hit.
Travis says:
NICE! NICE!
Travis says:
   
Travis says:
What about the bigger USA airfield?
Travis says:
is that going in 8.0?
.:Vanguard:. says:
It should be
Travis says:
cool
Travis says:
what about that huge airfield you showed us a while back?
Travis says:
is that going anywhere?
.:Vanguard:. says:
You mean the one where it had 10 slots?
Travis says:
yeah
.:Vanguard:. says:
No that wont be in the game
Travis says:
Why?  Size would be OK for a tech building
Travis says:
cuz the current tech airfield is too small
.:Vanguard:. says:
Not likely, that took up an entire Twilight Flame base area
Travis says:
Is that a map?
.:Vanguard:. says:
Twilight Flame is one of the original maps
.:Vanguard:. says:
The desert one with the tech area in the center
Travis says:
Sounds familiar
Travis says:
but will the tech airfield be getting a size upgrade sometime?
.:Vanguard:. says:
No
Travis says:
 
.:Vanguard:. says:
It's fine as is since it's Tech it doesn't need to be as powerful as the regular airfields
Travis says:
the idea of a tech building is to make it worth capture, right now it isn't
Travis says:
no matter what side you are
Travis says:
except maybe GLA, but only cuz they dont have an air force
.:Vanguard:. says:
Yeah it is, it provides extra air units. As far as I'm concerned you should go out of your way to capture it, because if you don't someone else might, and then use it against you. Which isn't a good thing
.:Vanguard:. says:
And since the Chinook will lose it's ability to carry anything except supplies you will need the Sea Devil
Travis says:
why do that?
Travis says:
then the USA gets stuck without an air transport unless you have a tech airfield
.:Vanguard:. says:
Because otherwise the US has two transports that can carry anything, and no other side has that option.
Travis says:
and that's completely against the USA because then China still has an air transports
Travis says:
because the USA is the best at air force
.:Vanguard:. says:
Uhh no, they can't do vehicles
Travis says:
the USA is all about air force, they need to be able to do anything from the sky without any tech buildings
Travis says:
and yes I put dozers and tanks in Helixes all the time
.:Vanguard:. says:
And this isn't about reality, And remember that the US still has blackhawks, which come with infantry. Which mind you are more valuable then 4 Chinooks carrying full loads of troops
Travis says:
can a Blackhawk carry vehicles too?
.:Vanguard:. says:
No, because they are only ment for light transport, (ie. Humvee) even then the Sea Devil will make the Tech Airfield a much more valuable asset
Travis says:
but removing a transport and making it only available on a tech building, which is only on certain maps, creates holes in a side
Travis says:
that is never a good thing
.:Vanguard:. says:
It creates holes to add balance, unless you want me to deminish the Airforce as a whole
Travis says:
to make the tech airfield more valuable all you have to do is make sure all sides get aircraft out of it that are more powerful than their own (super fighter/bombers) not remove units from their sides
Travis says:
except the F-23, I remember what you said but instead you could keep it as is only make it tech airfield only
.:Vanguard:. says:
Not true
Travis says:
why not?
Travis says:
if the tech airfield is my only way to an F-23 I would gladly take it
.:Vanguard:. says:
Doing that would create a large unbalance between the two airpowers, the US is already king of the air, adding a super fighter is to powerful
Travis says:
unless you make sure all sides get a super fighter/chopper from the tech airfield
.:Vanguard:. says:
The F-23 is already changed, and from what I hear the two people that have played with it so far think it's for the best
.:Vanguard:. says:
No, even then it's to powerful
.:Vanguard:. says:
Because then the US is still the most powerful, they need loop holes, because even in reality, there are major holes in our systems.
Travis says:
if we keep the USAF as is but move the F-23 to the tech airfield and raise the price, add some sort of superheavy bomber for China, and a massive nuclear kamikaze plane for the GLA
Travis says:
then it will be balanced
Travis says:
but we don't have loopholes by not having a way to airdrop vehicles
Travis says:
and like I said Helixes can carry vehicles, I do it all the time
.:Vanguard:. says:
No, because the GLA has neither the money to outfit a plane with such a weapon, nor could they find a plane that would fit the field that could hold the bomb
Travis says:
kamikaze
Travis says:
and the fact that they aren't building it from their own stuff, they're using the stuff at a tech building
Travis says:
I would say make tech buildings able to make things beyond their current resources
.:Vanguard:. says:
Then you still have a multirole fighter that is only for the AF Gen that is on the Tech AF, and it would still have the alterations I made 
.:Vanguard:. says:
It's not the bomb I'm disputing, it's the fact that to lift a nuclear WH you need something bigger then a fighter
Travis says:
sizes in this game aren't realistic anyway
Travis says:
something that looks like it should be the size the aurora should be would work
Travis says:
and have you heard of tactical nuclear missiles, carried by F-117s?
Travis says:
those are small
.:Vanguard:. says:
Well they couldn't find a fast enough plane anyway, it's civi tech, a missile could easily out run a civi plane, and Tactical Nukes are hardly the size of the nuclear missile, they are closer to the size of the nuke cannons, and even then the GLA arn't supposed to revolve around nukes, that's china
Travis says:
well a suicide plane loaded with explosives that makes a really big boom
.:Vanguard:. says:
That is the job of the Bomber
Travis says:
or make F-23s available to anyone who captures the tech airfield
Travis says:
instead of side-specific planes
.:Vanguard:. says:
No, the F-23 will stay on the regular air field, and will stay with the single bomb
Travis says:
I still say two bombs would look cooler
Travis says:
and that it wouldn't need a build limit to attack air units
Travis says:
cuz the ability to hit aircraft really isn't that valuable
.:Vanguard:. says:
It can still do air units, just can't destroy ground units as well
Travis says:
if you want a plane with a build limit add the switchblade
.:Vanguard:. says:
You mean the nano fighter?
Travis says:
either one
Travis says:
if you add both make the nano the king with the build limit
.:Vanguard:. says:
First off nano fighter = no, switchblade isn't needed
Travis says:
y?
Travis says:
we could use a king hybrid plane
Travis says:
that is good at everything
.:Vanguard:. says:
Because it isn't, the US has it's last fighter, the last plane it will get is the B1
.:Vanguard:. says:
And being good at everything creates to much of an imbalance
Travis says:
build limit
Travis says:
make it so you can only have one team of 4
.:Vanguard:. says:
No a team of 4 is still to powerful
Travis says:
Air Force gen only, and take away most of his ground units, leave only light stuff like humvees
Travis says:
then the enemy knows a real assault is only going to come from the skies
Travis says:
and they will mass air defense
.:Vanguard:. says:
Actually I would remove the oposite, most of his air, since they are the king of aircraft
Travis says:
why he's the air force general
Travis says:
I would say give each general a wide variety of units in their special category and only a few in everything else
.:Vanguard:. says:
Yeah, but he doesn't need to be the most powerful gen in the game
Travis says:
give everyone some real tough unit with a build limit
Travis says:
super weapon gets either a type of bomber or some artillery unit
Travis says:
laser gets something big with a particle beam
.:Vanguard:. says:
No, because then you have the issue where people use the dozerbay to build those units
.:Vanguard:. says:
So no special units, no super units
Travis says:
but the idea of a tech building is something to fight over
Travis says:
this would make it even more valuable
Travis says:
besides you have to build up 10-13 seperate bases to get all super units
.:Vanguard:. says:
Right, and if you have a tech AF which carries your sides only vehicle transport that's a real prize
Travis says:
but that creates a hole in your side if there isn't a tech airfield
Travis says:
cuz China has an airborne vehicle transport and GLA has the sneak attack which can send in all your vehicles
.:Vanguard:. says:
Yeah, a vulnerability, all sides have one you just need to know where to look
Travis says:
yeah but teh USA is the air force king, their vulnerability shouldn't be the only ones who can't get their tanks over water
.:Vanguard:. says:
China, slow moving, GLA, weak, USA, no air transports
Travis says:
USA everythings expensive
.:Vanguard:. says:
Ummmm, you do realise that the only time you can't get tanks across water is when you are going to be on a naval map, and the other maps with bodies of water will have bridges over them
Travis says:
and every other side can block up the bridges and single out every tank coming across while their helixes and tunnel networks completely ignore them and go right over
Travis says:
or under
Travis says:
against the USA all they have to do is post air defenses along the rivers and mass units at bridges
.:Vanguard:. says:
There are multiple flanks for every map, and if you had the chinooks, they would just knock up the anti-air
Travis says:
the USA has to defend everywhere from China's helixes
.:Vanguard:. says:
So either way they can easily stop an attack, but the fact is that, if you are a good player you take out the defenses before attacking
Travis says:
with what, superweapons?  That gets cheap and a lot of people like to turn them off
.:Vanguard:. says:
No airforce
Travis says:
I like to know I can whip them without superweapons
.:Vanguard:. says:
If you are a good player you explore every option
Travis says:
and the air force gen is the only one who can really do that
.:Vanguard:. says:
No
.:Vanguard:. says:
Stealth Fighters
Travis says:
too many detectors and they go down way too easy without PDLs
Travis says:
every single base defense can spot them
.:Vanguard:. says:
Ummm, that's why you build more then one airfield, attack with a small ground force to decoy the defenses and then take them out, move your forces through each of the locations so they arn't all in one place
Travis says:
ibut not having transports still puts the USA at an unfair disadvantage because they have to do all that just to get a few tanks across the freaking bridge when they are the kings of the skies and should be the only ones without that problem
.:Vanguard:. says:
Hardly, it puts them at quite a fair disadvantage
Travis says:
this means the USA are the ones that don't have a way to attack with a ground force at odd angles
.:Vanguard:. says:
I hate that you keep bringing up that we have the best airforce, I know we do, my mind can't be swayed by your powers. And they do, but you require the tech airfield to do so.
Travis says:
if there isn't a tech airfield on the map then that gives the USA the disadvantage
.:Vanguard:. says:
No
.:Vanguard:. says:
they are still very equal
Travis says:
cuz if there isn't enough room for plenty of airfields you can't get enough planes in the air to do any real damage
Travis says:
the sides were balanced before the mod and the chinooks could carry vehicles, ever notice that?
.:Vanguard:. says:
You depend way to much on the air power
.:Vanguard:. says:
You need to use ground forces as well
Travis says:
have to if I can't get the ground forces over there
.:Vanguard:. says:
I can take on 4 of my friends playing on a network with two air fields and 2 factoryies.
.:Vanguard:. says:
factories*
.:Vanguard:. says:
And as I said if you read there will be bridges on all maps except naval maps
Travis says:
right, but the bridges are major choke points, and it's too easy for the enemy to make those impassible
Travis says:
all they need for China is a few Gattling guns and some patrolling MiGs
.:Vanguard:. says:
Not really, Aircraft form the airfields can take the defenses, then move in with ground forces.
Travis says:
but if they move in with MiGs the stealth fighters cant hit the defenses
Travis says:
you move in with Raptors to take them out and you don't have enough room at the air fields for stealth fighetrs
Travis says:
fighters*
.:Vanguard:. says:
Yes they can, because they are only detected after they fire, and migs can't hit them very well if you have flares
Travis says:
then they just move in a few Radar Vans
.:Vanguard:. says:
Plus ground troops from the small decoy force also take fire from the migs
.:Vanguard:. says:
Making them have to return to base
Travis says:
or they could use helixes with bunkers and tank hunters
Travis says:
a few radar vans on the ground to detect them
.:Vanguard:. says:
Avengers
.:Vanguard:. says:
With humvee's full of MD's
Travis says:
China has the ultumate tank force to deal with them
.:Vanguard:. says:
Tanks are useless if they can't defend vs air
Travis says:
they can if you have gattling tanks with them
.:Vanguard:. says:
But they can't detect stealth, and if they have listening outposts, all you need to do for those is use infantry to draw them out of hiding.
Travis says:
but if you have gattling tanks the infantry get killed
.:Vanguard:. says:
Not if the AF has tanken care of them, and even then, you also have your ground forces to assist in the destruction of the gatling tanks
Travis says:
A team of Gattling tanks, Listening outposts and Battlemasters at the bridges can stop anything
Travis says:
especially if they keep some gattling tanks just outside so they can shoot down aircraft without being distracted by ground
.:Vanguard:. says:
No, they can't, battlemasters fire slower then a crusader which does the same damage, and they move slower, then the gatling tanks can't carry infantry like the Humvee can, then for the listening outpost you really only need the Crusaders and Humvee with the Scout Drone
Travis says:
or Overlords, or some other Chinese tanks
.:Vanguard:. says:
Doesn't matter, 4 Crusaders can take an overlord, plus Humvee's with MD's will really do damage, plus overlords take time to build, and move slow
Travis says:
but if tehy're used as defenses they don't have to move anywhere
Travis says:
especially at a bridge
Travis says:
and its hard to get 8 crusaders across a skinny bridge to deal with the 2 overlords
.:Vanguard:. says:
Air
.:Vanguard:. says:
Any way you put it I have an answer to it
Travis says:
Gattling tanks with Listening Outposts
.:Vanguard:. says:
Auroras
Travis says:
Gattling Tanks
Travis says:
can't outrun bullets
.:Vanguard:. says:
That's what the Auroras are for
.:Vanguard:. says:
Take the Tanks out, that just leaves the outposts
.:Vanguard:. says:
And for that Humvee's
Travis says:
but if there are gattling tanks there they can't make it through the bullets
.:Vanguard:. says:
Auroras can't be damaged while on an attack run
Travis says:
and gattling is pretty good against humvees too
Travis says:
yes they can by bullets
.:Vanguard:. says:
Only when they are returning to base can they be damaged
Travis says:
I see it all the time
Travis says:
Quads and Gattling guns can easily cut down an Aurora on its way in
.:Vanguard:. says:
No they can't
Travis says:
I've seen it before
.:Vanguard:. says:
The code doesn't allow it
Travis says:
then why did my Auroras go down before they dropped their bombs?
.:Vanguard:. says:
    SneakyOffsetWhenAttacking   = -20.0 ; this is how far behind us people aim when we are in attack mode
    AttackLocomotorType         = SET_SUPERSONIC
    AttackLocomotorPersistTime  = 100   ; we start slowing down almost immediately
    AttackersMissPersistTime    = 2000  ; but remain untargetable fer a bit longer
    ReturnForAmmoLocomotorType  = SET_SLUGGISH
    ReturnToBaseIdleTime     
.:Vanguard:. says:
Being untargetable means they can't be hit
.:Vanguard:. says:
The reason your's got git was because you either force fired, or because you just told them to move
.:Vanguard:. says:
They have to be told to attack
Travis says:
I have no idea how to read code, but I swear my auroras have gone down before hitting their targets
Travis says:
all I did was sat scan an area and tell them to attack a building
Travis says:
they took off, went over there at full speed, and went down before dropping bombs
Travis says:
besides only the Alphas have much of an AOE, so they aren't good for taking unit clusters, and they're too expensive even if they make it in cuz the rest of the gattling tanks drop them
.:Vanguard:. says:
Impossible, that means that their target either stealthed before they reached it, or it died, if they are attacking, they can't be touched
Travis says:
I told it to attack a plain Chinese command center and nothing else attacked it
.:Vanguard:. says:
Look at the razor back it uses the same logic, and can't be hurt until it's done attacking
Travis says:
haven't used Razorbacks much
.:Vanguard:. says:
Those are the multirole fighters, and are like the aurora
Travis says:
Never noticed them being invincible
Travis says:
on the way in
Travis says:
they always seemed to get shot down
Travis says:
what about the Combat Chinook?
.:Vanguard:. says:
Can only do infantry
Travis says:
mind if I post this on the forum?
.:Vanguard:. says:
If you want to copy the whole convo then yes.

[Jsmooth13]

yeah 'cause they got pumped up snipers.

[Jsmooth13]

So what you want is the USA to be entirely crippled?????? If your so "they need to all have the same number" or w/e the hell, why don't you just give China another transport???

[Vanguard]

What the fuck are you talking about, removing a transport can't by any means cripple them, they can still move, why he's worried about Helix's I have no clue, they are the fags of the sky. I have a better chance of knocking a wall down with a leaf then with a helix. And you still have the sea devil so they are far from being crippled. Why does everyone say they are crippled. That's just a faster way to get somewhere, and actually makes you more vulnerable because you depend so much on them. So even if you fallow the conditions below, you still have a 50% chance of actually getting this ability back.


I will reconsider under these conditions:

A) I remove the blackhawks and Sea Devil.
B) You guys stop bitching about the size of the Tech airfield, and you start to stay on topic in this forum.
C) Most desicions I make wont be changed.

Edited by Vanguard, 31 December 2005 - 05:11 AM.

[Ace22]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refuted his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

[Jsmooth13]

now...where do i know that from????...........oh yeah the Decleration of Independence. What are u saying ace?

[crave22]

Ace, you do realise that, since 60-80% of Revora's members are European, that document is null and void here?

Edited by crave22, 31 December 2005 - 05:35 AM.

[Karlos Vandango]

well chinooks these days are used for transport of supplies
but in vietnam they were used infantry

i say remove the chinnok infantry transport
make the blackhawk look better (reskin or model mybe)
then give it infantry transprt cause thats what they use today

[Delta24US]

Aye, Im all with Karl's idea.

Make the Chinook a strictly supply gatherer and avoid getting hit by vanguard's wrath lightning

And most importantly, I think the Blackhawk needs to be resized just a little. I mean the thing is gigantic compared to the chinook. but I mean it just disturbs me personally. And a slightly better model cant hurt? (I mean add the wheels! Blackhawk looks cooler with wheels!)

[00 Nobody]

Personally, I think Vanguard knows what he's doing. besides, it is annoying to forget when you have men or something in the chinook and tell it to go gather supplies. now if only the sea devil wasn't tech...