1340 replies to this topic

[Athena]

Yeah you did . But don't worry, deleted your double post.

The Bible says that.. but the Bible's written by men (I think I can safely say it was men) about 4000 years ago.

Now while I do agree there are some good moral lessons in the Bible and some nice stories, it also claims the Earth to be much younger than it really is, which has been scientifically disproved to be untrue. Other things can be untrue then also, can't they?

[Athena]

Yes the Bible was written by men. But God worked through these man and women to his words and thoughts to be written down.

Is it me or are those two sentences slightly contradictional?

If 'He' is omnipotent, why would 'He' need to work through those people? If 'He' can shape Earth, why can 'He' not shape a Book?

[MSpencer]

Everything in the universe follows the laws of physics. There are no exceptions.

Religion, because it chooses to disregard these laws, quickly turns into a fantasy story with as much credibility as Lord of the Rings.

And this is the most ridiculous line of discussion. Are you two seriously trying to argue that god created the universe and nothing can attempt to argue against that? Absolute ignorance... why don't we go back to the days of teaching "Good Christian Values" in schools? Excuse me while I go throw up.

Edited by MSpencer, 10 August 2006 - 04:24 PM.

[Tom]

This universe does yes but the quantum universe is also the laws of the creation which is far more than this infinitely small universe.

God did not "create" the universe, it was creation at work but it is still just an equation of science/quantum from the laws of creation itself. Your right spence when you talk science I am not arguing that you are wrong, all i am arguing is that you cannot prove or disprove creation at this time as we know too little about quantum and too little about its links to our physics.

[MSpencer]

Quantum mechanics is just a lovely name for what happens at the subatomic level. You're misusing the term worse than Star Trek or Star Wars...
Quantum mechanics only states that we can only predict the chances of something happening, and that everything is not completely defined. It states nothing else... it's not this be all end all theory of everything in the universe... in fact it contradicts relativity, another fantastically awesome theory.

Oh and here's where people come out to say that both are theories, and that god controls everything.

[MSpencer]

Not necessarily. We do know that the universe is infinite. At one point, perhaps 10x10^99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 trillion years ago, there could possibly have been nothing, perhaps. The universe is absolutely completely infinite, it does not end as far as we can tell, so as long as the universe is infinite, we cannot say with certainty whether or not there was nothing at any point in time. Absolutely nobody can, nothing in the universe could tell you what there was at the beginning of time, which by the very wording of the term is paradoxical. Time is infinite, the universe is infinite, therefore there can be no beginning and no end, however it is quite possible that the Big Bang/Big Crunch is simply a constantly occuring reaction which occurs on quite the same scale as dropping a rock into a pond. The waves radiate outwards, but in this case, eventually the waves reach a limit and can not stretch apart any further, and thus use their gained momentum to crush inwards at the same speed they expanded.
The very thought that some "infinite being" exists is totally beyond the realm of possibility. Yes, there may be higher planes of existence which we cannot yet comprehend, however no living thing can be completely infinite.
The concept of an infinite being is wild speculation to be left to the genre of science fiction. Infinite time is a given, as time will go on infinitely, and an infinite universe is very easy to comprehend. One would think that nothingness has to end somewhere, but it most certainly does not.

[MSpencer]

You misunderstand the point. We don't know. You don't know. For all we know there has always been energy in the universe originating from something.
In reality, you have no clue either, so you try and rationalize that with some 4,000 year old book.

[MSpencer]

No, half of it is 4,000 years old.
And you cannot prove that at one point there was absolutely nothing. Stop restating yourself thirty times, it doesn't help you at all, whatsoever. Nobody can prove at one point there was nothing, and nobody can prove that there was always something there. To try and use this to deduce that there was a creator is sheer nonsense and extremely flimsy logic.

[Fate Holdeth No Sting]

I had a question about when you said "No living being can be infinte," Spence. That's a very odd thing to say. I'd assume that, because you talk so much about relativity, and scientific facts, that you'd know that energy is also "infinite?" Set a definition to "life" before you say it's not infinite. Also, the fact that "the universe is infinite" means to say that the things which make up the "universe" are also "infinite." How illogical is that?

My point is that the entire thing is just one big paradox. One thought leads to another contradiction.

And, btw, don't use the standard model of physics as some high and mighty trophy. It contradicts itself as many as eleven different ways.

[chemical ali]

There has always been something, science can one day some sort of life will explain the Universe when we reach its limits and discover as go back to the opposite side. You can't destroy or create energy it had always been there. The universe will keep expanding because the laws of physics would not apply to as much extent outside our own universe.

[MSpencer]

It's not illogical. No living organism, no object, can be infinite in proportions. The universe is not a normal object.
And I do fail to see how the basic laws of physics contradict themselves, yet still remain the most constant thing in the entire universe.
Time by definition is infinite, the universe is infinite, however the matter and energy in the universe are finite amounts, which are being rearranged consistently on the fringe of the expanse of the Big Bang. There is a finite amount of galaxies, stars, planets, and celestial bodies in the universe as we know it. The universe may be infinite in size, but everything in it can be measured. No amount of objects can be infinite, no organism can be infinite, however certain things can be infinite, mostly in mathematics. Matter and energy can only exist in finite amounts, space, however, is the lack of finite amounts of matter or energy, and thus could very well be infinite, and as far as we can tell, is infinite, but it is foolish to argue that just because we don't know everything that's out there that there must be some big flying entity that made everything somewhere off in the distance that we just can't see. To infer that much from the lack of concrete knowledge about everything is foolish.

[MSpencer]

Possibly is very ambiguous. There may have been, there may not have been. WE DON'T KNOW!
Anyone who tries to base ANYTHING off of that is a fool!
It's an uncertain statement to begin with, it's an uncertain topic, you can't base more uncertainty off of uncertainty, it's like repeating someone's repetition of hearsay!

[MSpencer]

Earth is billions of years old. AOWR tried to argue against that with his little sun quote and got slammed into the ground.
It's a scientifically proven fact that the planet is 4.6 billion years old.