Jump to content


Photo

Master Thudo on the AI for CNC3.


  • Please log in to reply
181 replies to this topic

#21 Hostile

Hostile

    Benefitting Humanity Simply by Showing Up!

  • Veterans
  • 9,551 posts
  • Location:Washington DC
  •  T3A Founder
  • Division:Revora
  • Job:Global Administrator
  • Donated
  • Association

Posted 09 March 2007 - 05:59 AM

I have my EA contacts so it's not impossible to get your message to EA if you have something to say.

#22 thudo

thudo

    Wacko AI Guy!

  • Division Leaders
  • 12,151 posts
  • Location:Lemonville North, Canada
  • Projects:DoW AI Scripting Project
  • Division:DoW
  • Job:Division Leader

Posted 09 March 2007 - 02:37 PM

I have my EA contacts so it's not impossible to get your message to EA if you have something to say.

hehe.. wonder if its the same EA contacts back in the failed Generals/ZH days? Hoping not. ;)

Nevertheless.. there is ALOT of good feedback on the game as well as for its AI.
Advanced Skirmish AI Team Lead for the coolest Warhammer40k PC RTS out there:

Dawn of War Advanced AI Headquarters

Latest DoW Advanced AI Download!

#23 Master Windu

Master Windu

    The Master.

  • Advisors
  • 2,150 posts
  • Location:Houston, Texas
  • Projects:Galaxy at War, Rhovanion Alliance
  •  T3A Team Chamber Member

Posted 09 March 2007 - 02:43 PM

No, I think Hostile has some really good EA contacts, and EA is more open to suggestions from modders than they were back in the Generals/ZH time.
Posted Image
Posted Image

#24 thudo

thudo

    Wacko AI Guy!

  • Division Leaders
  • 12,151 posts
  • Location:Lemonville North, Canada
  • Projects:DoW AI Scripting Project
  • Division:DoW
  • Job:Division Leader

Posted 09 March 2007 - 02:45 PM

No, I think Hostile has some really good EA contacts, and EA is more open to suggestions from modders than they were back in the Generals/ZH time.

Well that would certainly be a MASSIVE DEPARTURE if true. I don't have fond memories of those EA devs on the Gen/ZH project. ;) Working on its AI had its moments and to this day Generals/ZH ranks up there as one of my top PC RTSes.
Advanced Skirmish AI Team Lead for the coolest Warhammer40k PC RTS out there:

Dawn of War Advanced AI Headquarters

Latest DoW Advanced AI Download!

#25 Master Windu

Master Windu

    The Master.

  • Advisors
  • 2,150 posts
  • Location:Houston, Texas
  • Projects:Galaxy at War, Rhovanion Alliance
  •  T3A Team Chamber Member

Posted 09 March 2007 - 02:51 PM

They (I think) asked some players/modders of BFME II to say what they thought should go in a certain patch. At least in my opinion, they will be more open to suggestions. I'm not saying that they'll change the way the game goes because of one person, but if you mention to them something that they were wondering if people would notice or not, it could help change a problem with the game.
Posted Image
Posted Image

#26 thudo

thudo

    Wacko AI Guy!

  • Division Leaders
  • 12,151 posts
  • Location:Lemonville North, Canada
  • Projects:DoW AI Scripting Project
  • Division:DoW
  • Job:Division Leader

Posted 11 March 2007 - 01:43 PM

Damn this C&C3 demo AI continues to impress!

Had a game against a Nod Hard-Balanced AI and lasted much longer than 5mins.

However.. he honestly screwed me over bad as if he learns each game how to own you even though you think yer some tough sh*t..

o He continued to Avatar and Suicide Bomb-rush me more than I've seen
o He loved screwing me with good Air and especially Air Bombing runs against key AA and regular base buildings (this was more prevalent when I sent tank formations out to get close to his base.. he would just Air Bomb me without prejudice).
o He built a SuperWeapon much faster than expected and then to add salt to the wound soon afterwards put a Stealth Gen near it so I could then not lock on to it! Grrrrrr!! :thumbsupsmiley:

I call all this bloody smart AI ! !

This is why I fail to understand why people want smarter C&C3 AI as it seems to learn from me each time I play. Very impressive and yet I tried to play like others have (based on the YouTube videos of people beating Brutal-Balanced in 50mins.. something isn't right at all with the AI they experience with the one I always do!!)

The ONLY thing I would improve on is always forcing the AI to add more base defenses and stealth Gens around key buildings like the MCV (HQ), Vehicle building, and, of course, the Superweapon. I think this is all easily achievable in the coming weeks after the release.

Otherwise, the AI countered everything I do wondefully but the worse s**t is when I try to send my massive tank column up to his base and I'm slowed down trying to get through his base defenses and hidden surprises since he has Stealth Gens everywhere! Then he has troops and Air Bombers screwing with me. The Air Bombers are the worse and no matter my AA he still can outdo them. Esshhh!

So we need smarter C&C3 AI then this? Ughhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! :thumbsupsmiley:
Advanced Skirmish AI Team Lead for the coolest Warhammer40k PC RTS out there:

Dawn of War Advanced AI Headquarters

Latest DoW Advanced AI Download!

#27 Marcjs

Marcjs

    Lord Of Change

  • Project Team
  • 569 posts
  • Location:Wales
  • Projects:Only War

Posted 11 March 2007 - 04:21 PM

the easyist way to beat the AI is to outlast them they will slowly stop all attacks bar air raids and then you can just roll over them without any trouble

Edited by Marcjs, 11 March 2007 - 04:24 PM.

Men who do nothing but dream should just stay in their dreams forever !!!!
Be Afraid Rodger Smith this dream isnt going to end till i bring your life to a end !!

YE GUILTY

#28 Hostile

Hostile

    Benefitting Humanity Simply by Showing Up!

  • Veterans
  • 9,551 posts
  • Location:Washington DC
  •  T3A Founder
  • Division:Revora
  • Job:Global Administrator
  • Donated
  • Association

Posted 11 March 2007 - 04:36 PM

But we will to learn how to ad AI for new units and make them an effective part of the attack/defend formula. :thumbsupsmiley:

#29 thudo

thudo

    Wacko AI Guy!

  • Division Leaders
  • 12,151 posts
  • Location:Lemonville North, Canada
  • Projects:DoW AI Scripting Project
  • Division:DoW
  • Job:Division Leader

Posted 11 March 2007 - 06:35 PM

the easyist way to beat the AI is to outlast them they will slowly stop all attacks bar air raids and then you can just roll over them without any trouble

Doesn't work d00d.. I outlasted the AI too long and still did not get the upper hand as he continued to bombard me PLUS he had a superweapon counting down so it forced me to draw resources to attack his super which then caused me to have my guard down a little which he then exploited. I call that utter brilliance. If he didn't have the Super then it would have been a cakewalk but once he builds it and counts down then that psychologically f**ks with you and it can drastically take you off your turtling mentality of just trying to out last him into a massive panic attack.

The strategy of simply "outlasting him" does NOT work on my PC. Sorry.. Maybe the AI uses extra scripts when a faster computer is detected. I have an uber PC OC'ed up the arse and the AI does sh*t noone else is reporting.
Advanced Skirmish AI Team Lead for the coolest Warhammer40k PC RTS out there:

Dawn of War Advanced AI Headquarters

Latest DoW Advanced AI Download!

#30 Nighthawk

Nighthawk

    Grumble Grumble.

  • Division Leaders
  • 2,945 posts
  • Location:Edinburgh
  • Projects:The Third War, Ares, misc side projects.
  •  Strategist and Modder
  • Division:C&C Guild
  • Job:Division Leader
  • Association

Posted 11 March 2007 - 08:19 PM

Try a Brutal Steamroller rather than Balanced. It's hell with treads and a barrel.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Job Openings with the Guild: Division Staff, News Posters.
Job Openings with Ares: Documentation Maintainer, Active Testers.

PM if interested.

#31 thudo

thudo

    Wacko AI Guy!

  • Division Leaders
  • 12,151 posts
  • Location:Lemonville North, Canada
  • Projects:DoW AI Scripting Project
  • Division:DoW
  • Job:Division Leader

Posted 11 March 2007 - 08:24 PM

Try a Brutal Steamroller rather than Balanced. It's hell with treads and a barrel.

hehe.. no thanks.. maybe when I was in my early 20s I could handle it. I don't prefer games where its RUSH RUSH RUSH BUILD BUILD BUILD MASS MASS MASS.. Blaaahhh.. Thats so 90s. I hate wasting my mind on mass production with little thought hence the reason I love Dawn of War: DC.
Advanced Skirmish AI Team Lead for the coolest Warhammer40k PC RTS out there:

Dawn of War Advanced AI Headquarters

Latest DoW Advanced AI Download!

#32 Master Windu

Master Windu

    The Master.

  • Advisors
  • 2,150 posts
  • Location:Houston, Texas
  • Projects:Galaxy at War, Rhovanion Alliance
  •  T3A Team Chamber Member

Posted 11 March 2007 - 10:37 PM

I was playing as Nod today and the AI (on Brutal) somehow figured out that I was vulnerable to a mass tank invasion, so about an hour into the game they built about 50 pretador and pitbull tanks, and just slaughtered me. It was too smart, and the AI even figured out that they could just run over all my missile units with groups of 5 tanks at a time. Scary. I'm playing against hard now :p
Posted Image
Posted Image

#33 thudo

thudo

    Wacko AI Guy!

  • Division Leaders
  • 12,151 posts
  • Location:Lemonville North, Canada
  • Projects:DoW AI Scripting Project
  • Division:DoW
  • Job:Division Leader

Posted 11 March 2007 - 11:39 PM

If the AI would withhold the construction of a Superweapon I could likely make a more firm stand. Air Bombers suck BADLY though as they come in and just reduce my Mammies down severely and since they have stealth and decent HPs rarely get killed. However, the Superweapon totally f**ks me over as it then changes everything kuzz I know one hit from the Nuke in a nice spot inside my base = P0WNED!

Its not so easy taking out his Super when its deep inside his base shrouded by Stealth Gens and gawd knows what else! Damn.. love this AI.

Who said we needed to mod it - its already too bloody good. :p
Advanced Skirmish AI Team Lead for the coolest Warhammer40k PC RTS out there:

Dawn of War Advanced AI Headquarters

Latest DoW Advanced AI Download!

#34 Hostile

Hostile

    Benefitting Humanity Simply by Showing Up!

  • Veterans
  • 9,551 posts
  • Location:Washington DC
  •  T3A Founder
  • Division:Revora
  • Job:Global Administrator
  • Donated
  • Association

Posted 12 March 2007 - 12:37 AM

We need to add new units and structures and have the AI use them effectively. That's where the modding part come in. First understanding how it works, then adding new units.

Take Only War 2, and Master Windus project, they will have space battles, that will require some AI tweaking to effectively play the comp.

#35 thudo

thudo

    Wacko AI Guy!

  • Division Leaders
  • 12,151 posts
  • Location:Lemonville North, Canada
  • Projects:DoW AI Scripting Project
  • Division:DoW
  • Job:Division Leader

Posted 12 March 2007 - 12:46 AM

We need to add new units and structures and have the AI use them effectively. That's where the modding part come in. First understanding how it works, then adding new units.

Take Only War 2, and Master Windus project, they will have space battles, that will require some AI tweaking to effectively play the comp.

Yep.. I'm quite sure with XML that won't be a problem although lets wait til release to say firmly whats to be done. Going between DoW/DC and C&C3 will be a nice exchange although I am forever DoW/DC -- too much amazing stuff coming for it for me ever to leave. :p
Advanced Skirmish AI Team Lead for the coolest Warhammer40k PC RTS out there:

Dawn of War Advanced AI Headquarters

Latest DoW Advanced AI Download!

#36 Nighthawk

Nighthawk

    Grumble Grumble.

  • Division Leaders
  • 2,945 posts
  • Location:Edinburgh
  • Projects:The Third War, Ares, misc side projects.
  •  Strategist and Modder
  • Division:C&C Guild
  • Job:Division Leader
  • Association

Posted 12 March 2007 - 08:57 PM

Try a Brutal Steamroller rather than Balanced. It's hell with treads and a barrel.

hehe.. no thanks.. maybe when I was in my early 20s I could handle it. I don't prefer games where its RUSH RUSH RUSH BUILD BUILD BUILD MASS MASS MASS.. Blaaahhh.. Thats so 90s. I hate wasting my mind on mass production with little thought hence the reason I love Dawn of War: DC.

Hehe, yeah, I'd have to agree with you on that. I've also noticed that the AI sends an attack force proportional to your defenses. If you have, e.g. a lot of Guardian Cannons but few Watchtowers, they'll infantry spam you, and will vehicle spam you if it's the other way around. Likewise, if you have little AA defense and major ground defense, they'll just bomb you to hell.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Job Openings with the Guild: Division Staff, News Posters.
Job Openings with Ares: Documentation Maintainer, Active Testers.

PM if interested.

#37 Hostile

Hostile

    Benefitting Humanity Simply by Showing Up!

  • Veterans
  • 9,551 posts
  • Location:Washington DC
  •  T3A Founder
  • Division:Revora
  • Job:Global Administrator
  • Donated
  • Association

Posted 21 March 2007 - 02:36 AM

Well I've found an AI method vs medium players. Granted I'm not a great player, so conquering medium is impressive for me on a 1vs1. But it's simple. Don't build anything...

Except a war factory and a tech center and fully buy all the upgrades, and build mammoths. I mean build no infantry. I built nothing. I added 2 anti infantry base defenses for cover. But they never attacked. The AI weighted my presence and found me too powerful to attack. Even though I only had 2 mammoths and 2 base defenses.

I played 4 games in a row and won each time the same way. But the AI gives you exactly enough time to buy what you need and upgrade before they come. Than they never seem to come.

Once you're fully upgraded and actually build one or two, the AI dies (goes idle) and does nothing, just sits there. So I move in with 2 mammoths into thier base from thier non tiberium side and walk all over them.

It requires alot of micro, but if you're fast and efficient, the AI drops off quick. Now I'm off to go beat Hard. :) I'm scared guys, going in for combat. See you on the other side. :p

#38 thudo

thudo

    Wacko AI Guy!

  • Division Leaders
  • 12,151 posts
  • Location:Lemonville North, Canada
  • Projects:DoW AI Scripting Project
  • Division:DoW
  • Job:Division Leader

Posted 21 March 2007 - 03:03 AM

I find it super difficult to defeat HARD. Medium I learned how to do it but with HARD I find I cannot micro that fast. Ugh. Further, the HARD AI always builds a Superweapon (major a*s pain), always Stealth Bombs me from the Air (oh man he is such a pain when he comes in after my Mammoths as they roll towards his base), sends suicide bombs incase the Bombers don't "finish the job" (Aghhhh!!), and if I can send my main force up to his base he then has ALOT of Stealth Generators in his base so I cannot get good locks on targets especially if I try to take out his Superweapon.

VERY frustrating. I mean, the AI isn't perfect (there should be a script which ALWAYS places his Power Generators away from the enemy like we have in Dawn of War). Right now, I see some of his Power Gens sitting right on his base periphery super vulnerable to my first strikes. I would fix that right away! Send Power Gens to the back of his base then have Stealth Gens around = OMG ! ! ! ! !!

Still.. looking forward to inspecting the AI. First need to playtest the retail C&C3 AI to see what areas need improving.
Advanced Skirmish AI Team Lead for the coolest Warhammer40k PC RTS out there:

Dawn of War Advanced AI Headquarters

Latest DoW Advanced AI Download!

#39 Twilus

Twilus

    Your Mother's Father's Uncle's Moustache!

  • Members
  • 471 posts
  • Location:Canada
  •  Music forum poster

Posted 21 March 2007 - 04:07 AM

When going against the hard AI, i seem to only last til he builds a SW.
I always go against nod AI, for fear of GDI juggernaut spamming me...
I refuse to have a signature.


Oh wait...

#40 Nighthawk

Nighthawk

    Grumble Grumble.

  • Division Leaders
  • 2,945 posts
  • Location:Edinburgh
  • Projects:The Third War, Ares, misc side projects.
  •  Strategist and Modder
  • Division:C&C Guild
  • Job:Division Leader
  • Association

Posted 21 March 2007 - 04:58 PM

Yeah, the superweapon is always what takes me out. I went up against a hard opponent yesterday, and attacked with 6 upgraded Mammoths, but then they just used Vertigo bombers to take out two of my Mammoths, then Fanatic-spammed the rest of them till they died. I barely got past the base defenses. Maybe it's just my bad playing style, it never works with EA's games.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Job Openings with the Guild: Division Staff, News Posters.
Job Openings with Ares: Documentation Maintainer, Active Testers.

PM if interested.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users