181 replies to this topic

[Adolphus Perrywinkle the 13th]

But then again, the Generals-AI was so juvenile it's offensive, even for its time.

Edited by Adolphus Perrywinkle the 13th, 08 June 2007 - 09:14 PM.

[Hogo]

Hmm I just wondering when we get to modding the AI, Do you think we could make it use the Mother Ship Master Mind Tactic? Also I am sure of this but we should make the AI pull its army away from sonic emitters if possible because Ai gets owned by them.

[thudo]

Once we can start modding the CNC3 AI then yep. Waiting to get access to those XML files. Otherwise, we twiddle da thumbies.

[Nighthawk]

Mothership Mastermind tactic? Don't tell me the Mastermind can teleport the Mothership! Oh, wait, I think I understand. It's like the old Buzzer Bomb tactic (which was fixed in 1.05), only using the Mastermind's Teleport ability instead of a Wormhole. Tell me if I'm wrong here...

[Mighty BOB!]

You're wrong here.

The tactic is, teleport a Mastermind into the enemy base, use it to mind control a building, then when you have control of the building, you plop down a Signal Transmitter right in their base and then summon the Mothership directly to their base for big asplosions, instead of placing the Transmitter and summoning it in your own base.

[thudo]

Gawd... that exploit is still possible? Thats sooo 1.0.. esshhh! I wonder what the success/failure probability of pulling that off? Guess it depends on how quick the defending player can stop it from happening OR the speed of the attacker to run all that in its sequence.

[Nighthawk]

How do you teleport a Mastermind though? Masterminds can't teleport themselves.

[Hogo]

Why teleport there fast And the MS isnt bugged its got what it really needs a weapon for that kind of cost.

[ched]

*nudges*

The SDK has some excellent doc on AI. Any chance you may have started on this thudo?

[thudo]

I will but that doesn't mean someone else can leap forward a little to erect the first foundations of an Advanced C&C3 AI delta force.

[thudo]

Okie.. C&C3 1.07 SDK is mine and I've been examining the AI in <main C&C3 folder>\Mod SDK\CnC3Xml\SkirmishAI\.

The main thing I am working now on is BIAS PLACEMENT BUILDING so priority is given so I can move Base Defenses to the front of the bases AND on expansions. AND move TechCenters, PowerGens, and Superweapon to the back. The thing is: I can't find any indication why Superweapons are able to be forced to the back of a base - I see no script or trigger for this which is odd. Am I missing something in the \CnC3XML folder? I need to find the bias settings as there is no point to an AI's efficiency if it cannot properly secure its economic and defensive assets first.

So as it stands.. here is the ToDo C&C3 Master Advanced AI list:

Section A
Below are offerings based on an ALLIED AI (HARD level but varying personality) on a Human team:

1] Does not preform as aggressive as on a non-human allied team - this needs to be addressed.
2] Balanced and Rusher seem to be the weakest of them all and need more aggressive tweaks added - teching seems decent but map dominance is questionable.
3] Turtle and Guerilla personalities are slightly better but fail to produce enough units early on and still do not tech up fast enough.
4] Steamroller, by far, is clearly superior to all personalities, as it masses troops like there is no tomorrow and generally wins all the time. Teching is slower.
5] Allied AIs linked with humans never build engs to capture Tiberium Spikes at game start. Enemy AI does!

Section B
Overall suggestions based on AI allied with a human (may differ based on AI acting without a human alliance):

1] All Power, Tech Centers, and Superweapons should always be build away from the enemy and best kept at the back of the base OR bias away from the enemy.
2] Base defenses should always be built along the parameter of his base and NOT too far inside it. Too many times I have seen, for example, anti-tank emplacements sitting in the center of or right behind his base where nothing ever happens. They should be bias towards the enemy on the periphery of his base!
3] When new expansions are created, base defenses should be built on them also bias towards the enemy.
4] Based on personality, AI should always try to build a Superweapon quickly and protect it behind its base adding defenses around it! Turtler personality would be obvious choice. Other personalities should also try to build Superweapon quickly.
5] Give priority to sending engineers out to capture spikes or other useful buildings on the map! However, if the attempt fails, AI must scan region first before sending additional engineers to the obviously threatened areas. If an area the engineer is sent to capture is clearly not safe, he should move back to main base and wait til threat clears. Threat should include enemy garrisoned buildings as well!
6] Should research upgrades from Tech Centers based on when that unit, which would use it, is already built. ie. GDI builds Mammoth tank, thus, Railgun upgrade is priority to be built.
7] Should not sell important buildings like Tech Centers! These are critical to keeping the AI alive and competitive.
8] Hero unit should be seen more often and use its ability as it should
9] Should try to build Tech Centers especially Advanced Ones sooner rather than later.

Section C
Specific faction suggestions:

1] GDI AI Hard-Balanced personality is broken: it builds a Crane at game start and should be avoided. It should use the Nod Balanced personality as a template.
2] GDI AI - should load specific troop types into APCs to use em to fire out of. APC + Rocket Solider = effective tank killer. Mixing them up with Snipers, Grenadiers, etc would be excellent!
3] Nod AI - should always build Stealth Generators around his base. Same with expansions. Obelisks also but reinforced with spotty AA emplacements.
4] Nod AI - Avatar should try to upgrade itself with next available nearby Nod vehicle and do this randomly, if possible.
5] Nod AI - Counter enemy tanks with swarms of vertigo bombers and suicide infantry.

Further, how do you, once you configure your edited AI, then integrate it into the game? Guess I have some reading to do.

So now that the SDK is finally here.. I'll need XML AI scripters to assist me with the above. I gather it should NOT take long to do what we need to do. XML looks fairly basic compared to LUA programming. In fact, I would have figured it would have been more complex.

Edit.. Nevermind I found what looks like why Power Gens are built where they should not be.. Found in \Mod SDK\CnC3Xml\GDI\Structures..

PowerGens Placement Code:

BuildPlacementTypeFlag="MAIN_STRUCTURE"
		<SkirmishAIInformation
			BaseBuildingLocation="SPREAD" />

Superweapon Placement Code:

BuildPlacementTypeFlag="OTHER_STRUCTURE"
		<SkirmishAIInformation
			BaseBuildingLocation="HOMEBASE" />

The "BuildPlacementTypeFlag" designation may not be critical here. BaseBuildingLocation is critical, though. I have to see what SPREAD entails and if bias-to-enemy exists. This would be interesting.

And now I found all placements..

<xs:enumeration value="FRONT"/>
			<xs:enumeration value="SIDE" />
	  <xs:enumeration value="BACK" />
	  <xs:enumeration value="SPREAD" />
	  <xs:enumeration value="CENTER" />
			<xs:enumeration value="TIBERIUM" />
	  <xs:enumeration value="HOMEBASE" />

I can see why the C&C3 now places Tech Centers and Power Gens on expansions! Such buildings are set as SPREAD so as the AI has more buildable space it just moves along a line building indiscriminately anywhere. This is bad ESPECIALLY for tech centers. Base Defenses are either set as CENTER or SPREAD. The Large GDI Sonic Base defense is set as SPREAD but should really be set to FRONT. In fact, it would be interesting to play this out to see the best setting per map. I get a feeling it depends on the map. I still cannot find the script that controls something like how "SPREAD" is determined. Still.. making progress.

Edit #2.. Example how the AI can properly setup GDI snipers to paint a target and have Juggernauts open fire on the area.. this is found in \Mod SDK\CnC3Xml\SkirmishAI\States

<AIStrategicStateDefinition
	id="GDIDefensiveSpotters"
	UnitUpgradeMultiplier="0.0">
	<Heuristic>
	  <PathToTargetHeuristic PathExists="true"/>
	  <LateGameHeuristic/>
	  <SiegeThresholdHeuristic SiegeMode="true" Threshold="8.0"/>
	</Heuristic>
	<TargetHeuristic TargetHeuristic="SafestToGroundStructureHeuristic" TargetType="SiegeTarget"/>
	<Tactic Tactic="DefenseAvoidanceAttack" TargetType="SiegeTarget">
	  <TeamTemplate MinUnits="2" MaxUnits="2" IncludeKindOf="CAN_ATTACK" ExcludeKindOf="AIRCRAFT" AlwaysRelease="false" AlwaysRecruit="false">
		<CreateUnits UnitName="GDISniperSquad"/>
		<CreateUnits UnitName="GDISniperSquad"/>
	  </TeamTemplate>
	</Tactic>
  </AIStrategicStateDefinition>

This could lend to the ability to have the AI controlled GDI soldiers/rocket d00ds to garrison into APCs.

[Soul]

Sweet, good to hear about the Human Allied AI.

Anyway good luck Oh Master of the AI .

Edited by Soul, 25 August 2007 - 04:17 PM.

[Spikey00]

Haha Thudo, great to hear you that you are already analyzing these files.

I believe you had made a mistake in your report, which is:

Steamroller, by far, is clearly superior to all personalities, as it masses troops like there is no tomorrow and generally wins all the time. Teching is slower.

Sometimes the Steamroller chooses to tech immediately at the start of the game, but doesn't really build any units during most of the construction. I have seen it produce a whole bunch of Rifleman/Militia's for Nod and GDI (Have not observed Scrin.) and kind of rush them all out to try and delay the enemy while the AI techs up. This leaves them very open, but usually successful in my games, cos I'm a bad player who likes to turtle too long.

For GDI, they usually tech up for Zone Trooper rushes, which is powerful in middle game, but seems to start succumbing after a little bit. Then they build Juggernauts usually.

For Nod, I don't really know what they do! Stealth Tanks and Avatars probably.

For the Scrin, they start building Tripods and rushing them out, and maybe Devastators and the other ship. (My god, I can't remember it atm...)


And for your whole assessment, I am agreeing with it mostly, especially Section B; #5 and #6. During my gameplay, I always notice my GDI AI build and place an armory, and upgrades the Scanner Packs first for some strange reason instead of Composite Armor.

But I disagree with Rusher being THAT weak, as I have played with it and it is extremely similar to Steamroller, but it constructs many tanks instead of having infantry and tanks together. Sometimes uses aircraft. It usually builds 5 War Factories and 1 Barracks in normal maps.

I also semi-disagree for Avatars to upgrade randomly; as Flame Tanks still damage and kill nearby infantry when they are destroyed...

If I can also say, which is relevant here, that I like how the Guerrilla AI places their defenses... They place defenses on the outer area of their base.

And that is all that I really have to say for now which is overall...

But I do have one more thing... This is biased on your side, Thudo! You didn't mention anything about the Scrin, unless they don't have much to improve on.

And if you have any files for the AI currently... I would love to try them out!

[thudo]

- Steamroller.. you just contradicted yourself about this AI personality. Steamroller is a pure spammer and really thats what can still win a game (unless your steamroller tactics are appalling and just spam the same unit over again. heheh Doesn't work in 1.05+). Its a good tactic by the AI just to mass spam stuff. It can be changed in the Advanced AI edition of the C&C3 AI but I'll need an fully-realized AI team to do that.

** I'm NOT doing this project on my own. I have Dawn of War obligations as well to fulfill **

- I'll look at Rusher again.. haven't checked it in 1.07

- I'll have to see if we can get the Avatar to randomly upgrade to various options based on whether Nod Buggies, Stealth, Flame, and Bean Tanks but I still feel the Nod Avatar is a gameplay pariah.. the costs of it verse a GDI Mammoth vs what you get out of both on the battlefield make the Avatar utter poo. EA really dropped the ball on that - having to manually "fight the damn thing" to grab vehicles to incorporate themselves to the Avatar is in itself massively flawed. Ugh!!!!!!

- Guerrilla AI places base defenses ON THE FRONT? Ya sure of this? Sofar in the AI code its not consistent how base defenses are placed because they have a specific preset per buildings mentioned in XML. Still investigating.

- Not bias against Scrin.. its more practical to edit ONE faction first then apply the changes over to the other 2. GDI will first be tested with new changes then quickly applied to Nod/Scrin.

- No AI yet... SDK just came out 3 days ago.

Oh and by comparison with our first Advanced AI for Dawn of War.. it took no less than 4+ months before our very first 1.0. Quality takes time.

So.. now I need to form a team of XMLers and who love and die for good Advanced AI owning players and causing an influx of broken mice and keyboards into all national recycling bins! Muhahahh!

[Sûlherokhh]

Oh and by comparison with our first Advanced AI for Dawn of War.. it took no less than 4+ months before our very first 1.0. Quality takes time.

So.. now I need to form a team of XMLers and who love and die for good Advanced AI owning players and causing an influx of broken mice and keyboards into all national recycling bins! Muhahahh!

You sure have the right attitude for such a project.
Oh how i wish the over-simplified yet under-documented AI of BfMe2 was a bit more flexible in being manipulated to something effective, interesting and still not be transparent after a few games.
Backtracking to the old scripted AI sadly is not an option. I'd rather port the next BfMe-mod over to C&C3 just to have decent skirmish capability.

I'm really happy to know you are willing to parcel off some of your time for the C&C3 AI. This seems to be an area that game developers most often don't give the attention it needs. A game with a rocking AI and bad grafics beats a game that just sucks after playing it a day in earnest, no matter how cool it all looks and sounds.
More power to you!

[thudo]

I find the C&C3 AI, as is, VERY effective at being a massive ballbreaker BUT don't expect Skynet here, people. We don't have dedicated AI Processors yet! That could be QUITE dangerous to having a possible "artificial sentient" inside your own computer box. But perhaps I digress of our frightful future ahead..

I'm hoping in the coming month to see how "pre-modular" the C&C3 AI is.

I mostly, however, require a team of 2-3 committed AI-minded gents/chaps/d00ds to work together as an effective fighting force to help increase the national landfill sites with more broken mice and keyboards. Har har.

[Mastermind]

BuildPlacementTypeFlag="MAIN_STRUCTURE"
		<SkirmishAIInformation
			BaseBuildingLocation="SPREAD" />

Superweapon Placement Code:

BuildPlacementTypeFlag="OTHER_STRUCTURE"
		<SkirmishAIInformation
			BaseBuildingLocation="HOMEBASE" />

The "BuildPlacementTypeFlag" designation may not be critical here. BaseBuildingLocation is critical, though. I have to see what SPREAD entails and if bias-to-enemy exists. This would be interesting.

BuildPlacementTypeFlag is used for the build queue, and ground control tests. You wouldn't need to edit it for an AI mod.

[thudo]

Yes I figured that, MM. Next couple of weeks should result in some fun C&C3 AI development.

[Spikey00]

- Steamroller.. you just contradicted yourself about this AI personality. Steamroller is a pure spammer and really thats what can still win a game (unless your steamroller tactics are appalling and just spam the same unit over again. heheh Doesn't work in 1.05+). Its a good tactic by the AI just to mass spam stuff. It can be changed in the Advanced AI edition of the C&C3 AI but I'll need an fully-realized AI team to do that.

** I'm NOT doing this project on my own. I have Dawn of War obligations as well to fulfill **

- I'll look at Rusher again.. haven't checked it in 1.07

- I'll have to see if we can get the Avatar to randomly upgrade to various options based on whether Nod Buggies, Stealth, Flame, and Bean Tanks but I still feel the Nod Avatar is a gameplay pariah.. the costs of it verse a GDI Mammoth vs what you get out of both on the battlefield make the Avatar utter poo. EA really dropped the ball on that - having to manually "fight the damn thing" to grab vehicles to incorporate themselves to the Avatar is in itself massively flawed. Ugh!!!!!!

- Guerrilla AI places base defenses ON THE FRONT? Ya sure of this? Sofar in the AI code its not consistent how base defenses are placed because they have a specific preset per buildings mentioned in XML. Still investigating.

- Not bias against Scrin.. its more practical to edit ONE faction first then apply the changes over to the other 2. GDI will first be tested with new changes then quickly applied to Nod/Scrin.

- No AI yet... SDK just came out 3 days ago.

Oh and by comparison with our first Advanced AI for Dawn of War.. it took no less than 4+ months before our very first 1.0. Quality takes time.

So.. now I need to form a team of XMLers and who love and die for good Advanced AI owning players and causing an influx of broken mice and keyboards into all national recycling bins! Muhahahh!

How did I contradict myself?

Yeah, you should see Rusher again. But it isn't that good, as Steamroller has an infantry edge over Rusher AI's. Sometimes it builds no barracks.

And you mean Cycle's instead of Buggies, right?

Pretty sure that Guerilla places at least SOME defensive buildings right at the edge of their base.

Anyways, I wish you good luck in development!

[thudo]

- hehe.. nevermind about the contradiction. I'll examine the Rusher too.
- Cycles.. yeap.. sorry..
- ONLY ONE base defense on the front? Bahhhhhhhhhh! Nonsense. Such silliness must end!