1120 replies to this topic

[dojob]

Fast-running dwarves with quick-recharging AT ability sounds good I think even I posted that idea a while back...

[Morgulshade]

Definitly....Good idea guys.

[Dalf32]

yoda, its now your job to take that idea directly to rob
id hate to see it get lost again; its one of our better ideas methinks

Edited by Dalf32, 24 February 2009 - 12:53 AM.

[Wanderer∞]

Too late...
What about giving the zealots the axethrow ability either for the ranged unit or in addition to the ranged units

[Rafv Nin IV]

*ahem*

Did we reach a consensus on the building-that-heals-buildings.

[Hasfusel]

A small Workshop building sounds fine to me and I think most people agree. The Workers could be those miner guys you see in the non-linear campaign, you know, in the Iron Hills mission. Or maybe as an addition your builders could get an upgrade allowing them to repair buildings as well. On the subject, by the way, I'm 100% in favour of reintroducing the Gondor Stoneworker.

I like Axethrowers. I don't get what your problem is with them. They do melée damage at a distance, making them a unique and useful unit. They're counter-archer archers, if you like. Great support for your Pikemen, or even on their own. Who cares about how realistic it is? Besides, you'd have to "axe" the wildmen ones too, if you will forgive my shameless pun. If you needed to you could increase their speed.

I personally really dislike the idea of the only ranged Dwarf units being Guardians that have a fast-recharging axe throw ability. It's ridiculous in my opinion because I personally hate the idea of basic infantry having those kind of abilities, but everyone seems to like this so I guess it's nuts to me.

Someone suggested Beorn should be a hero? I think he's dead by the War of the Ring, I might be wrong - remember that in Tolkein's world all men seem to have very different life spans to ours, not just the Dunedain (in any case almost all the Gondor and Rohan heroes are of Dunedain descent anyway). He'd probably be too old to fight in any case. But hey, the Goblins have Azog, who was killed by Dain ages before even the events of the Hobbit. And Arnor has heroes who are practically ancestor and descendant fighting side by side. I'm all in favour of Beorn as a shape-shifting hero. As a man, he does tough damage to heroes and buildings. As a bear, he acts as a kind of fast, powerful troll unit, smashing away enemies regardless of arrows but very weak to pikes. He could have a different power set for each form. He'd be a unique and interesting hero, and a welcome break from the carve & copy new dwarf and dale heroes, who frankly I'd be happy if they were simply axed altogether or just chucked into the inn. There's no theme or consistence to their powers or the way they look. They don't have a specific purpose. They don't even do anything important in the story. I'd just throw them out.

Imagine that Borin, Thorin III, Brand (in case anyone's interested, he's actually supposed to be called Bergren) and Prince Bard have been kicked out. I'll start with a clean slate. Here are my proposed heroes for the Dwarves.

Since his Leadership is apparently being removed, Gimli is left with only three powers. Axe Throw, I'd give a large splash radius and increased damage against speed, to give it more usefulness. Reality and physics can go to hell. Leap Attack could have a slightly longer range, to allow him to leap from battlements onto enemy troops. Slayer, I'd keep the way it is, except I'd slightly improve the armor boost. Then, I'd be happy if he had a passive Lvl.10 ability, possibly a boost to damage radius, small boost to speed and a major boost to health, making him the ultimate mélée battle hero.

Dain, I would keep as he is. He's a fine hero. Same as Gloin. Although sometimes I find it strange how Gloin's speech seems to mention him wielding an axe rather than a hammer. I always imagined Gloin as an axe fighter, anyway.

Now, as for new heroes... First, I would have the original Bard as the Dale hero on the basis that he's an important character and everyone's familiar with him. He can have a clear theme to his purpose and powers. As I explained above it doesn't matter too much that he was in The Hobbit rather than the Lord of the Rings. Here's what I think for him.

Bard of Esgaroth (or King Bard, or whatever. The name isn't too important. I just think that it should be Bard himself and not some random descendant)
Recruit the dragonslayer and leader of the Men of Dale.
An Archer-type leader hero. He can't stealth, unlike Faramir. Use the EA Prince Brand model, but reskin to give a yellow coat with black trim. It seems more fitting, don't ask why. He has good attack, health and speed making him one of the most cost-effective early game heroes who retains strong use late in the game.
Buildcost: 1550
Powers:
Lvl. 1: Bow/Sword toggle (Bard does more damage through his bow but with his sword he has slightly better attack speed, which is more useful for when your enemies reach you. This power is optional - he would work just as well as a pure archer.)
Lvl. 2: Flame Arrow (shoots a single fiery arrow that causes a small fire and does more damage to monsters and ents)
Lvl. 5: Leadership
Lvl. 7: Heir of Girion/Lord of Dale (trains units)
Lvl. 10: Black Arrow (best single ranged attack in the game; does tremendous damage to flying heroes and excellent damage to monsters and other heroes)

Here's my proposed Beorn:

Beorn (or bear-mans, if you prefer)
Recruit the mysterious lord of the Carrock
A great, unique hero have. He looks like a large, bearded man wielding an axe and wearing furs. I'd recommend slightly enlarging and reskinning a model of Hwaldar to give him grey hair and more brown clothes.
Buildcost: 3000
Powers:
Human Commandset
Lvl. 1: Bear Form (shift into a great Bear with crush, great attack radius and knockback like a troll, higher speed, great resistance to normal attacks but heavy weakness to pierce; switch to bear commanset; short recharge time so that you can't constantly switch to and fro)
Lvl. 2: Nature Friendship (summons flock of birds with excellent view distance)
Lvl. 4: Healing Herbs (heals nearby heroes)
Lvl. 7: Wild Walk (passive; Beorn becomes stealthed in forests)
Lvl. 10: Wrath of the Carrock/Terrible Fury (nearby enemies flee in terror)
Bear Commandset
Lvl. 1: Human Form (shift back, change back to human commandset. Short recharge time.)
Lvl. 4: Crippling Blow (does great damage and cripples enemy hero)
Lvl. 7: Great Rage (temporarily gains massive boost to damage and pierce armor, doesn't slow down when crushing)

This would give the Dwarves the smallest but possibly strongest hero group in the game. They'd have Dain, Gloin, Gimli, Beorn and Bard, and possibly Dwalin if you think it would make a good addition. No random Borins and obscure Thorin IIIs.

Oh, and I'd rename Men of Dale archers to Esgaroth Bowmen, and possibly remove their Black Arrow attacks because Bard's getting it. You could swap it for Longshot. On the subject of Longshot, it doesn't work if your archers are grouped together, by the way.

*incredibly massive post*

Edited by Hasfusel, 24 February 2009 - 03:34 PM.

[mike_]

Bard was dead. Beorn was dead and never really liked Dwarves. Thorin III was Prince of Erebor. Brand was King of Dale.

All Dwarven infantry would get the axe-throwing power; not just Guardians. Misinformation FTW.

[Morgulshade]

The axethrower stats and the counter-archer archer unit is not the problem. The problem is the axe throwing -.-, they would just change the model and the projectile graphic and leave the unit as it is :s ( im speaking as if it was WCIII world editor rofl)
So you would have the same unit, completely more realistic ^^

[Florisz]

I knew this would get fun.

[Rafv Nin IV]

Nevertheless, Mike, I think his version of Bard is much better than the "super-poison-stealth-hitman-assasin-building-destroyer" Dale hero that is in the game right now. The powerset ought to be changed to something similar to the one described for Bard above.

[Wanderer∞]

I still would like to see beorn as a hero somewhere in the game...

[{IP} Aridor]

He was dead

[Wanderer∞]

And so are other heroes that are still in the game. Yeah they died closer to the WOTR but Beorn was still a major character and a force to be reckoned with. But this really isn't the place to debate over him

Edited by Wanderer∞, 26 February 2009 - 03:24 AM.

[{IP} Aridor]

There are no heroes in the game that were dead before WOTR. Arnor and Angmar don't count they are in a different time period.

[Hasfusel]

Bard was dead. Beorn was dead and never really liked Dwarves. Thorin III was Prince of Erebor. Brand was King of Dale.

All Dwarven infantry would get the axe-throwing power; not just Guardians. Misinformation FTW.

Bard was dead by the War of the Ring, yes. But who do you think players would appreciate more in the game?
My point is that it doesn't really matter whether or not they were alive at the time so long as they were in the Hobbit. I think people would appreciate playing as Bard much more than some random descendant who doesn't get more than a mention. Bard has a clear theme to his statistics and powers, which are based on Tolkien's writing. Brand just hasn't got that originality. You should look at things from the perspective of the average player/reader who doesn't really care about the fine detail enough for it to get in the way of the game.
The same applies to Beorn. It don't think anyone will really care that he wasn't around at the exact time. And it doesn't really matter he wasn't incredibly friendly with dwarves. It's what you associate with him because of the aid he gave Thorin and co. If he had thought that enemies were potentially threatening his home, he'd have no problem joining with the dwarves to fight them. I think people will really like playing as Bard and Beorn, both with clear roles and characters. Not some obscure descendants or relations with very little significance to the story or the game.

The fact that all dwarf infantry will get Axe Throws is all the more horrific. Axe Throwers are a great unit, all they need is a reskin and maybe smaller projectiles. I think we should put this down to a vote. I really don't think that most players care so much about little details like that that they're willing to let it spoil the game and ruin a perfectly good unit. It's a game based on a fantasy.

[Dalf32]

the problem is that this game doesnt take place at the same point as the hobbit. it takes place years later during the wotr, so anyone dead before then is pretty much out of the question as far as im concerned (excluding angmar and arnor of course).

[mike_]

Beorn's son was there, and Bard's grandson was an old king.. so it's really out of the question in my opinion.

As for axe-throwers; not going to argue it again. To my knowledge they're going out and not coming back. Boo-hoo.

[Wanderer∞]

So add Beorn's son as a hero!
I'm sure having at least one beorning in the game would please a great number of people as well as him being a very interesting hero to play as.

[mike_]

Yeah, we'll (read: someone besides me, 'cause I'm just short of useless here) work on that later on

[Dragonforce]

ONly for inn faction I would say