260 replies to this topic

[robnkarla]

A lot of what I do with the ring system is based on what is possible with the coding. It was a huge pain just to get it so that a unit/hero can "use" the ring in this fashion. So how long it takes for someone to be corrupted and how it impacts the game is yet to be decided, the only thing I've explored is that it is possible with enough effort./coding.

The one thing I've felt from the start - I don't want different ring heroes in the traditional sense for each faction. It is something that has always bugged me. Sauron would be the only one that I can think of to use in any sense. If there was a hero so powerful alive at that time, why would they not be included in some fashion in the faction to start? (Balrog, as the only exception. For Balrog, he just can't be a hero in my mind, as it would be completely overpower gameplay-wise or it would be an under-powered Balrog. Sauron is nearly the same thing, but the powers I would give him - one wouldn't be leap from place to place in such a hurry.) And for dead heroes, why would the ring be able to bring someone back from the dead? It just didn't sit right. And being able to destroy the ring doesn't really fit for the skirmish.

So it came down to I think - You can summon Sauron for those factions that should (Any faction with Nazgul, as I don't think any other group would not be tempted to use it themselves before eventually making it's way back to a Nazgul/Sauron), or you an existing hero may attempt to use it in some fashion or it would be kept somewhere for safe-keeping. Those are the 3 areas I've seen.

How do they all balance out? One big difference is the amount of time it takes to use the ring for a hero vs. re-creating Sauron. A good hero that finds it can almost immediately use it, thus having a benefit from this, while Sauron will still take some time to build. The risk of uising it would be that it would corrupt the hero in some way while giving them stronger powers. This can be done a number of ways. Once used an unknown timer starts, and for that period the hero is stronger than before, but maybe their attacks that are area-attacks them hurt allies as well as enemies. Maybe the cause an area damage around them to everyone, and over time that area increases, killing them as well. It could be anything at all. My goal is for either they cannot respawn (which probably is too much) or they respawn without the power of the ring. When killed the ring is dropped and another hero can use the ring.

When taking it to a fortress, it most likely wouldn't be massive damage over time, but merely enough damage so that it cannot be repaired unless through powers. Then benefits would be given - Dwarves Resources increase and whatever we decide.

Lastly, when Sauron takes battle, it really should be not overbalanced but it should be run for your lives. Enough time should be given such that you can either prepare to fight him or take down the fortress as fast as possible. When he comes out, he should be the strongest unit in the game. He should be counterable, but the idea is the ring's benefits overall should be balanced against each other, they shouldn't be Gandalf with the ring=Sauron with the Ring=Anyone with the Ring. It should be, how long does it take to get those power, how long do they last, if the time you can use Gandalf with the ring & Aragorn & Gandalf again (if you are able to keep control), should be as strong or stronger benefit as it is for Sauron. Good's job is meant to keep the ring from Sauron, that is your goal more than anything.

Even with all that, the ring is something that is turned on and off, so we'll try to make this one of the best systems so give us all the comments so we can incorporate ideas, or just don't worry about it and you won't have to play it

Yet another long post, but I hope this helps my views,
Robert J.

[dojob]

I agree with Rob, except that Good heroes should also be able to just drop it

[robnkarla]

That's where the coding comes in on trying to figure out how to drop the ring. Also, lore-wise no one after they have possesion of the ring would really ever give it up to any other than Sauron, and that would most likely be a Nazgul.

Bilbo was the first and only person to somewhat willingly pass the ring onto someone else. If I were to follow this logic, then whichever hero picks it up (unless a Nazgul) they would have to keep it and maybe use it.

The goals I'm trying to reach:
- Be as lore accruate as possible
- Add another area of enjoyability/fun-factor (not lower it)
- Be able to code the darn thing
- Keep the overall system balanced

And this is completely open to discussion/suggestion. Nothing beyond exploration of what is possible has been done, and that is still going on.

Robert J.

[Allathar]

Well, outside of Sauron, the only heroes powerful enough to really use the ring how they want are Gandalf, Saruman and - perhaps - the Balrog, imo. Because they are Maiar, they can do with the ring whatever they want, although become eventually corrupted.

When a 'lesser' life-form uses the ring, it strengthens the main abilities of that person. Hobbits are stealthy and sneaky -> thus, they become invisible when using the ring. Men are strong leaders, thus, when Aragorn would have used the ring, he would become a great king. That's why Sauron feared him that much.

I don't know how to implent this in the game, but I think outside of Mordor, Isengard would also have one option with the ring - to create a very powerfull hero with it, Sauron/Saruman.

[Dalf32]

wow, this sounds suspiciously like something i suggested waaaayyy back when i first joined the mod (the forums actually).

i dont think i would change anything about this system really. except perhaps its effect on the fortress; i kinda like myrdin's suggestion to not continually damage the fortress but to damage it when it is used (upgrade bought, hero recruited/revived, builder constructed, etc.). or perhaps it could give the fortress an offensive boost of some sort (extra power, im not sure) and then, either gradually or right off-the-bat, lower its armor.

having mote and mordor (only factions with nazgul) get sauron is great, it makes the most sense according to the lore and it isnt that op when you take into account the time and/or cost to recruit sauron vs the near-immediate effects upon any good-hero that picks it up.

imo, any hero should be allowed to wield the ring; the drawbacks to using some heros could stop people from having weaker heros from using it. for instance, if you gave the ring to eowyn she would be corrupted so quickly that she would be relatively useless. that way you wouldnt need to restrict which heros can use it, which, i think, really lowers the uniqueness and fun-value of the system; it makes it the old system but with new heros.
when the hero is corrupted (i like the timer system) perhaps he/she could take a black aura type thing (i think the nazgul have it at some point) to show they are corrupted.

o, and one more thing, how will the corruption work? will the hero just wander around like gollum does (passive), or will he/she run around destroying whatever gets too close (aggressive)?

[robnkarla]

A system similar to this is very similar to ideas that have been thrown around nearly every BFME2+ mod, and I do remember you're ideas/thoughts. The reason why it comes up now, I think I've finally figured a way to get most of it to work. Each time I tried, I could not give the hero the ability to know that it had the ring and act upon it in order to "upgrade" them. That part finally works.

I do like the idea of the ring doing damage when used for units/heroes/upgrades, but the coding on that piece is challenging. I've also thought about the idea that the ring could be taken to the fortress and then you can decide if as a faction you want to use it. Similar to the heroes, you could say whether just to hold it or to use it. Then once used the damage could start or the negative repercussions could begin.

As far as corrupted, I might not get this to work properly. I would like the hero to be more of an aggressive gollum going after whatever come near (maybe high attack and low defense so extremely damaging but a "shell" of the original). If anyone has ideas on how to have the unit be treated as an enemy to all I'd like to know. If I can't get that to work, then I might have them just killed off, or replaced with a wraith or something. Just playing with ideas in a lot of the areas to see what can work.

Robert J.

[Gothmog14]

Doesn't everyone go invisible with the Ring? Not just Hobbits? Something about being on the same plane as the Nazgûl, when you put it on you become invisible, like Isildur and which ever other man/dwarf/elf were to put it on. Are you planning to implement that? Personally I don't mind the Ring Hero system as is, definitely shouldn't be resurrected heroes or new ones for each faction.

[robnkarla]

Invisibility is described as one of the effects when you use it. You're natural sight then also was diminished. I've heard the theory of the enhancement of who you are (i.e. Hobbits, etc. being stealthy). For some reason this does ring so true, as in the beginning I could have sworn that Bilbo was not all that stealthy and kinda clumsy. He was only able to do what he did because of his experiences and the ring.

I've thought about doing the invis, but that could be way too powerful - invis Gandalf using WoP......hehe. I might incorporate it, but I have not decided yet.

Robert J.

[Captain of Arnor]

I love how you put it before, Rob. You try your hardest to stop Mordor from aquiring the Ring and when they do, you know the Pooch is screwed (so to say) and it's time to gtfo and mount a massive attack with tons of heroes. Basically, a sprint back to the fortress and an attempt to build forces while the enemy makes an army to fully destroy your world with. And being backed by Sauron, I think that would be possible...unless you really get your stuff together fast.

I think Gandalf should be able to 'use' the ring, and Aragorn also. Because Aragorn posesses the power to hold out against the Rings seduction (remember, he said he didn't want it or want to use it: that shows, to me, that he COULD use it if he wanted to, even if only for a short time before being held under its sway.)

But I think Gandalf should be another story. Since Gandalf, as said before, was a Maiar, he would be able to conquer and dominate the Ring to HIS will. Because he is a lesser god, in a minor way. Kind of a demi-god, perhaps? Anyways, I think Gandalf and Aragorn would be able to subdue the Ring to their will in the spirit-world. I also think Glorfindel could do this, as could Elrond also.

If you guys can manage the coding in this, this is going to be absolutely amazing...down to the core of this mod, I'm already deeply impressed and I can't wait to see what else can, and will, be done with it. I can only wonder, however, with everything you guys have in store for this, how long it will take for the Final to be released. I don't think it ever will be XD I think it'll always be Betas, because everyone just seems to be oozing with amazing ideas that really should be implemented into the mod.

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 18 April 2008 - 02:55 AM.

[Funbomb]

Found this on LOTR wiki.

When a person wore the ring, he would be partly "shifted" out of the physical realm into the spiritual realm. There, if he managed to consciously subdue the Ring's will with his own, he could wield all the powers that Sauron had before he lost the ring; notably, he could control and enslave the will of others. A side effect (but usually the first effect noticed) of the Ring was that it made the wearer invisible to physical beings like living Men but highly visible to spiritual beings like Ringwraith, dimmed the wearer's sight, and sharpened his hearing. This "shadow world" was the world the Wraiths were forced to live in always, but it was also a world in which the Calaquendi (Elves of Light) held great power: therefore Glorfindel was able to stay the Witch-king at the Battle of Fornost and later again at the ford of Bruinen at Rivendell.


The enigmatic Tom Bombadil was unaffected by the Ring, or rather, the Ring had no effect on him.

So maybe good factions could get a Tom Bombadil but he is jacked up and is like Sauron. He can't get corrupted so he could wear it forever until he died or his finger with the ring was cut off.

[Captain of Arnor]

Tom Bombadil...he would produce an interesting affect in this mod, definately. It would help the lore of the game, quite a bit...but like Gandalf said: Tom Bombadil would not go out and fight unless he had the vote of every other person in Middle-Earth against him and even then, his power diminishes over his boarders in The Old-Forest. He would be, like I said, interesting, but another thing is that he wouldn't help attract more people to the mod. The Ring-Hero is Tom Bombadil? People will say 'Huh...okay, well, this mod offers Isildur, so I'll go there.' The first things people look for in a BFME mod is

1) Ring Hero. I used to be this way, I hate to say it but I was. If a game offered a new Ring Hero for Gondor or the good factions, I was all over it.

2) Factions. That, this mod has in spades. Ten factions all together is something that would blow most people away. But the level at which Rob has got them working and functioning? Mind-blowing.

3) Powers. I'll admit this also: I found an incomplete mod one time (Battles of Gondor) and I saw Boromir and Faramir in armor instead of the leather and chainmail like before and I was thrilled. I used that mod for ages, even though it never had a chance of going further.

4) Units. Once more, that is yet another thing amoung many this mod has no problems with in the least. Dozens of new units, great technology for each faction, AWESOME RESKINS, and even a full building set for ARNOR? Come on. People are psyched out just to see a mod that ALLOWS Arnor for use. One that permits use of Arnor to such an extent is...wow. And I'm not going to lie, either: they're one of my absolute favorites in this game. A Brutal match between Angmar and Arnor is something to behold.

But Tom Bombadil, while a solid choice lore-wise, wouldn't be the fan attractor that Gil-Galad or Isildur would be. Gil-Galad, definately: don't forget, Glorfindel died fighting a Balrog of Morgoth. If he could come back then, somehow, so too could the King of the High-Elves.

I found this on Wikipedia, I figured it might help us figure this bit out.

'Sauron never intended others to use this Master-ring, and at the time he did not consider the fact that anyone of sufficiently strong will who possessed the Ring would have available to him much of Sauron's own power to dominate:

If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place... There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicous will. But that he never contemplated nor feared.'

Gandalf, or Aragorn, totally. I'm leaning towards Aragorn personally because I prefer swords and actual combat like that over magic.

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 18 April 2008 - 03:36 AM.

[Myrdin]

There was said that you could repair the fortress after the dmg is done with palanit power ( Dwarfes, Gondor ), that is nice

but . . . . what will all other 8 factions do ?

there could be some unit type ( builded at fortress that has its Iron plating - prerequirement of ulti, done ), he would act as special reaper ( kinda like peasants at BFME - no they cant repair here ), and he would be able to slowly repair the fortress
( like when units are healed at fountain over time ).
You could be able to gave max lets say 3 repairers at one time, and becouse they would concentrate ( would be slaved and ordered too - by evil ) to repair the damn fortress ( ), they would be dieing over time ( logically it doesnt give sense, but this is a thing of ballance ) soo its like this :

This dude
examle : 500 hp
10 hp lost for every 0,5% of fortress hp repaiered
pretty expensive ( around 1500 just for this single guy )
max 3 at one time
building time . . . like 5 minutes ( coldown of 5 pp s )

soo eventually you would be able to repair your fortress, BUT with pretty big restriction ( soo you wont go jerk off, from happynes " i can repair the fortress, kay, i will upgrade it and get all heroes " . . . and then BANG fortress down and you like " huh ? " ). soo you can repair it but slowly, step by step


as for the Discusion of who could wield the ring:
You guys remeber the campaing of RotWK ?
in animation MoS gained the alliance of Drogoth the dragon lord, by offering him one of the " lesser " rings of power. Soo by this we can see that even dragons would be able to use the ring.
My suggestion for goblins :
Drogoth + One Ring = Drogoth shadow dragon of Darkness ( remember fow galadriel looked, when frodo offered the ring ? imagine it by Drogoth )
He would grow 2x as big, the dark aura would flow from his body ( nazghul like ), with eyes burning evil dark red, flames flowing out his mouth, and mighty sharp horns growing on his head tail and back.

[Devon]

First of all, I think porters may gain the repair ability.

Second off...I think this is a good idea....but seriously unbalanced for good. I don't think I'd ever play a good faction with ring heroes on with these rules. First off: the corruption issue. Let's say I want my most powerful hero, Gandalf, to get the ring. I have to send him out over and over with frodo to scour the map in search of it, costing me my best hero for most of the game. If I wait till frodo finds it himself, some nazgul or mounted hero will get there first and take it away...though this could be solved by not revealing it if the ring were found. Second: I use the ring with Gandalf....but then after five minutes or something he's corrupted...I've just lost a 6k hero for the price of killing maybe 3/4 of an army, probably about 5k in cost or something. And I've lost use of the ring. Third: If I choose to take the ring to my fortress...it gets slowly owned over time for the price of a mapwide buff....which isn't really logical anyway. All the enemy has to do is send like 10 or 15 trolls and some orcs charging into my base and I'm screwed. So....imo:

-Only Bilbo/Frodo and Gollum can find the ring.

-Any hero can pick it up, but they get a corruption timer slapped on, like 2-3 minutes or something. Frodo and Gollum have much higher resilience, like 20 minutes.

-They can still choose to use the ring and gain powers....making them a lot stronger, but also possibly increasing the speed of the timer? Or like taking 30 seconds off each time they do? If that's possible, original timer could be like 5-7 minutes.

-At any time, any hero can take the ring back to their fortress. Once in their fortress, one of their heroes (the king or something, whatever makes sense) can upgrade themselves with the ring. This king hero would have no corruption timer...and be like a typical ring hero. When they die, the ring falls on the ground as normal.

-Frodo also has the option of taking the ring to the enemie's fortress and destroying it...he'd have to be right next the fortress to do this, and it would take like a little 5-10 second animation. This would (possibly) permanently remove ring from map, or just make it leave frodo and go back to its unfound state.

So for good...you have the option of a little instant havok on the battlefield using the ring..at the risk of overstaying your timer and having the hero turn on you. Or you can try to get Frodo in for some sabotage in the enemy's base, at the risk he'll be discovered. Or you can just go for making one of your heroes ownage, though at a high cost and build time.

That's just my idea how it would work....I guess the main ring hero could have a corruption timer too...but it seems like that would make it very unbalanced.

I'll post something on evil factions later.

[Captain of Arnor]

That's not bad, Yoda, yeah...but like I said, the game being unbalanced for Evil would, in my eyes, be some type of goal. I mean, think about what would have happened if Sauron would have retrieved the ring again, in Lord of the Rings. Everyone would have been screwed, basically, and he would probably have made it over the Seas to the Undying Lands. There would have been nobody to stop him. You should think of it in terms of realism and accuracy to the lore: like I've said in fifty other posts now, the enemy getting the ring should really be something you try your absolute hardest to prevent.

[Myrdin]

well im not really sure if Sauron could even make it to Valinor, just remember what happened when it was sieged last time . . .
next there were the most powerfull beings of all midlearth ( starting with many ancient elfs, + elfs who run from Middlearth, ending up by Manve like buddies, who can destroy a mountain just waving their " hand " ).
soo basically that wouldnt be smart.

but Sauron would be ruler of Middlearth, and that pretty much, ( and all he wanted actually ), for there wouldnt be anyone to opose him, and the " inhabitats " of Unding lands, wouldnt care a thing ( for they turned away from Middlearth some time ago )

[Captain of Arnor]

I think that if Sauron got the Ring back, not even the Valar and the rest of the Maia could defeat him. Remember, when Gandalf talks about Sauron getting the Ring back, he says 'His power would be enough to cover all the world in a second darkness.' He would basically become Morgoth...but this is just what I think.

Not to mention that the people of that age, the Gondorians and what few Elves were left in Middle-Earth, would have been little more then a road bump. Mainly because the Elves were wimping out and fleeing like cowards, and Men were standing tall and fighting to the end. Admittedly, some of the Elves were fighting, not all were bad: but the majority just pussed out and said 'Frag this noise.'

Anyways, yeah. I like debating about this kind of stuff, because it's one of those open-ended conversations where everyone has their own opinion and I really like hearing them all.

But yeah: if Mordor or Angmar gets the Ring in the game, it should be the end. Either your side mans up and provides an epic struggle which leads to an honorable death or a great victory, or you just die!

[Devon]

I think you guys are missing some of it...if one of the elf lords or aragorn or gandalf or someone chose to use actually use the ring to gain control...they would have wiped out sauron as easily as he wiped them out. They would eventually become corrupted and become basically a second sauron...but all traces of the first would be gone except for the ring, which they would pretty much 100% control

[Myrdin]

and you missing one thing too - Ring = Saurons soul, sauron cant be wiped out, unless the ring is destroyd. even if they would destroy whole mordor, and baradur togather with saurons eye presence, his sould would still remain, dwelling in the shadows of the ring, just waiting for some mistake of the one that wields it.

Dont forget - the ring itself is nothing, more than a piece of junk ( golden,but junk ), unless the power that is to be found in it is still present. Lets say, sauron wanished, just soo, the one ring would become uselles, for its saurons soul, his OWN power that gives the ring power. and as you might now, if you are fantasy fan ( not just lotr ) Evil will ALWAYS find a way back ( Warhammer, for example - books i mean, chaos cant be destroyd, it can be defeated, for some time, but it will eventually come back. Same thing goes in Warcraft for Sargeras and his burning legion, he was defeated, but he wasnt destroyed, no mortal being, could do that - And this goes for Sauron as well )

btw, Morgoth was more powerfull than Sauron, and yet he was defeated by his " brethren " ( though they all had to do it ), Sauron was mere one of his generals, togather with Gothmog ( the balrog, not orc ), they were powerufull, sure, but they werent as strong as theyr master.

[Captain of Arnor]

Yes, indeed. But the corruption wouldn't happen over night with someone like Gandalf or Aragorn. They could have used the Ring to wipe out Sauron, I say, and then have destroyed it afterwards. But perhaps I'm wrong...maybe using the Ring at all would have been basically it. Well, it'll all work out. I think the corruption thing is awesome, but it does have a few kinks that should be worked out. It's turning out awesome though!

I know who Morgoth and Gothmog and Sauron were, their ties together in the wars with the Valar. I know about the seduction of Numenor and how Numenor was wiped out in an act of divine intervention to keep mortals, and evil, out of the Undying Lands. I know that Sauron and Morgoth all began as nothing but music in the heavens...but I think that if Sauron had fetched the ring again, he definately would have finished what he and Morgoth started.

Sauron was also only Morgoths Lieutenant. After you read so much LOTR and realize how bad Sauron was, it makes you wonder just how bad Morgoth really was. Must be mind-blowing.

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 18 April 2008 - 09:51 PM.

[Rafv Nin IV]

One of two things must happen if corruption is to stay: Either you must be able to revive a corrupted hero after you kill them, or the strength of a Ring Hero must increase with level. Here's why.

Let's say you save resources, and manage to buy Radagast (or another powerful hero) fairly early in the game. The Ring is not found until late game. Radagast is about level 9. He gets access to the rest of his powers, and gets a high buff. That's nice and all, but he didn't have much to gain, and when you lose him to corruption, the enemy has a level 10 hero and your next one is level 5. If abilities are granted blind of level, then a level 10 Gandalf and a level 1 Gandalf with the Ring are one and the same, and there is no incentive to summon powerful heroes until you've already got the Ring. There either needs to be less risk to using the Ring (you can revive your hero after he's gone bad and you/your enemy killed the rogue), or a graduation to power (a level 2 hero with the Ring is strong, but a level 8 hero with the Ring is uber).