167 replies to this topic

[Smokeskin]

Match: 1v1
Factions: SoB (Smokeskin) vs DE
Game Modes Used: Standard
Map: Outer Reaches
A.I Difficulty: Insane
Resources Rate: Normal
Resources Sharing: Off
Winner: Me

Comments:
I harass it away from anything letting it keep only 2 SPs, the result from there is obvious.
There is something going on, either sisters are overpowered or there are issues with the AI. Either its DE strategy isn't very good, or something made the AI weaker compared to 2.6. Insane certainly was A LOT harder in 2.6, I doubt I got that much better in just 3 games. I'm testing with one of the old races tomorrow to rule out a general problem with the AI.

Attached Files

•  2P_OUTER_REACHES.2008_03_20.00_46_42.zip   88.78KB   0 downloads

Edited by Smokeskin, 20 March 2008 - 12:14 AM.

[Smokeskin]

An Immolator. They were waiting for it, and it was almost futile, since it had been upgraded just moments later, making it, as we know, useless against my infantry, which at that point was still my main force (and they gained experience as well).

I think we should delay the upgrade to at least tier 3, maybe even 4. In tier 2 anti infantry has priority.

I completely agree. If the sisters need AV, the celestian squads seem quite up to the task. I even think that if possible, don't upgrade unless the enemy has tons of vehicles out.

That's exactly my plan! At the moment I'm cleaning up the researches with Thudo. I'll then adjust the starting build orders a bit to increase the troop count.
However, I won't include extreme rush builds a la "win in T1 or loose". For example my plan for chaos T1 is 2 cultist squads, 3 marine squads + commander. This is for normal maps. Large maps will get 3 capturers.

Sounds great

[thudo]

What we would like are 3 additional Tier1 BuildOrders for both DarkEldar and Sisters.. We can do it ourselves but we are missing 3 additional BOs for the DE and Sisters so any rush tactics for both these would be welcome by our testers so we can try them out in our next build.

Btw, I just incorporated new research restrictions on all 9 SS factions (except Necrons with are pretty much perfect) - DE feel soo much better now.

Also, the reason for a good # of Dark Eldar Caravels is because of increased pop, increase research speed, and increased reinforcement speed that each Caravel brings. They are useful in #s.

I'm noticing weird stuff in general regarding melee units for the Dark Eldar. Hellions, Wyches, and even Warp Beasts (well the trainers at least) are standing and shooting as if they were using the Stand Ground stance (the blue one), somewhat inconsistently. I see them starting melee combat fine...but half the time they switch to ranged, and the weirdest part is, you can't break them out of it by attacking them with a melee unit! They're behaving like units did in DoW 1.0, where shooty stance would keep your units from charging into melee combat.
Can somebody else confirm by running 4v4 with all or most Dark Eldar, on a big map?

Yes I saw an SM F.Commander come up to an enemy LP and shoot it close range.. WTF!?! What happened to the days of going into melee? So yer NOT dreaming.. I've seen that now more and more...

And.. the reason the AI upgrades the Immolator, like it does all units, is because the MultiMelta HP upgrade is selected to only be upgraded if the enemy has vehicles or buildings. I have thus tweaked this so its less likely to upgrade the HP to MultiMelta.. its a delicate balancing act of course...

[runab0ut]

What we would like are 3 additional Tier1 BuildOrders for both DarkEldar and Sisters.. We can do it ourselves but we are missing 3 additional BOs for the DE and Sisters so any rush tactics for both these would be welcome by our testers so we can try them out in our next build.

I'm enjoying these discussions... looking forward to your release.

What BO's do you currently have for the DE?

The popular one nowadays for DE is the Bike rush at around 2:20 mins.


2 Mandrakes
Foundry, Gen
1 Hellions for harassment
3 Jetbikes
Lab then upgrades...

Edited by runab0ut, 20 March 2008 - 07:26 AM.

[dreddnott]

Yeah, the Reaver Jetbike spam is fun. I'm going to make that Build Strategy 4.

The only build strategy they have in the current build is a "generic" one that doesn't work very well for the Dark Eldar, which is why I volunteered to do work on it. I have all the strategies laid out, and I'm fine-tuning them right now.

[Smokeskin]

Match: 1v1
Factions: SoB (Smokeskin) vs Eldar
Game Modes Used: Standard
Map: Outer Reaches
A.I Difficulty: Insane
Resources Rate: Normal
Resources Sharing: Off
Winner: Me

Comments:
It was certainly better with Eldar than DE, but not sufficiently - it fought back, but with too little. I think the main problem is that sisters are able to harass quite hard and decap the AIs SPs, and the AI doesn't respond that well to a hard harass/early mass. Mainly because it wastes resources on stuff that might work if it held more SPs, but since it doesn't it gets completely depleted for resources, and then has nothing left for units. Raising the army size requirements could well solve it.

Idle unit: At 10:30 their wraithlord walks to the rightmost CP and stays there, just moving a little bit once in a while.

Lp2/Turrets: I think that when you harass the AI, it has some bad behavior here. It builds these early, but it builds them at one of its nearest SPs. Basically, if you turtle up at 2/9 SPs, you're going to lose - the right thing to do here is more units and try to fight back. Perhaps a check that unless it has at least 40% of the map's SPs with lp1s on them, it won't upgrade to lp2? That should mean that either it's a forward SP that gets the lp2, or if the AI is behind it builds units needed to fight back in the game instead?

Webway gate at 2 mins: Isn't that much too early, they're not needed until much later imo.

Plasma generators: I think it goes a bit heavy on these, the initial one is fine, but it builds 2 more within the first 5 minutes.

Many builders: It had 3-4 builders all the time. Even when it had no units left almost, I saw 4 freshly rebuilt builders (I had just killed them) rush in to repair a building, and all get mowed down again.

Attached Files

•  2P_OUTER_REACHES.2008_03_20.09_47_54.zip   96.92KB   0 downloads

Edited by Smokeskin, 20 March 2008 - 11:34 AM.

[Smokeskin]

Sisters rush BO that I use:

Buildings:
Adepta Sororitas Convent
Plasma generator
Lp1s on everything

Units:
Servitor
Missionary
Missionary
Sisters
Sisters
Cannoness
Sisters

Edited by Smokeskin, 20 March 2008 - 09:21 AM.

[LarkinVB]

Please note that the AI is unable to handle rushes. Not sure if it is possible or desirable to code rush countermeasures.

I still vote for a flexible flag_capture number though.

[Smokeskin]

Please note that the AI is unable to handle rushes. Not sure if it is possible or desirable to code rush countermeasures.

Do you mean it is unable to handle rushes with the current build orders, tactics settings etc., or that it is unable in a more fundamental way?

[LarkinVB]

I'd say it is more fundamental and not just fixable with build orders. Rushes take the AI at its weakest spot. There are few squads and its multitasking is of no help. Therefore it has to use each squad to its fullest. Even if there are special counter rush strategies coded the AI will loose due to its fundamental inability of good positioning, targetting and the finer arts of microing the squads to best effect.

My 2cents.

Edited by LarkinVB, 20 March 2008 - 11:36 AM.

[Smokeskin]

Match: 1v1
Factions: Tau(Smokeskin) vs Eldar
Game Modes Used: Standard
Map: Outer Reaches
A.I Difficulty: Insane
Resources Rate: Normal
Resources Sharing: Off
Winner: Me

Comments:
I tried with Tau, and it was harder this time around. I have to fight some more to push it back, and it gets out some vehicles and stuff, but I'm too far ahead of it at that point. SoB's early rush is certainly tougher for the AI. I also think the layout of this map makes it very hard for the AI, since I can normally keep it off one of its SPs, but on this map that means containing it completely and denying it anything but 2 SPs. I'm making one more test on a map that isn't as early push friendly. After that, no more early push tests.

It hates my LP: At 5:20 and 5:45 (and more times I think), it seems to get a lot of hate for the LP i've built on the central SP - it sends many units running right past my main army to get to the LP, so they get gunned down. It loses lots of units for nothing to this.

Webway gates: It built 2 of these at 3:30-4:00. I don't see any reason for this, and it bleeds it off vital resources.

Generators: Too many too early imo. It builds 2 right at the beginning, and another one a bit after.

Builders: It insists on having 3 of them t1 and 4 at t2 it seems. Isn't that too much? It even rebuilds to get that number when I kill some.

Attached Files

•  2P_OUTER_REACHES.2008_03_20.12_13_03.zip   91.25KB   1 downloads

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Webway gates: It built 2 of these at 3:30-4:00. I don't see any reason for this, and it bleeds it off vital resources.

I think those are from the times when they still could build plats in T1...

Generators: Too many too early imo. It builds 2 right at the beginning, and another one a bit after.

I check them out too. At the moment they build the third one earlier than the other races because the Soulshrine is so expensive. If two are enough I can change that. I think it's the same with IG.

Builders: It insists on having 3 of them t1 and 4 at t2 it seems. Isn't that too much? It even rebuilds to get that number when I kill some.

Two are normal in T1, three in T2 and more if they have enough troops. Many builders are usually needed to provide a good repair rate. I can increase the army requirements a bit to make it less risky.

It hates my LP: At 5:20 and 5:45 (and more times I think), it seems to get a lot of hate for the LP i've built on the central SP - it sends many units running right past my main army to get to the LP, so they get gunned down. It loses lots of units for nothing to this.

Pathing issue. One reason why the AI will never be good in T1 harassing. Larkin pretty much hit the nail on the head...

I still vote for a flexible flag_capture number though.

What do you mean exactly with flexible? I try to set 2 for nomal maps and 3 for large maps, but I'm all ears for a better idea.

[troubadour]

DE AI casts corrosion cloud (or whatever the name the acid coud that destroy building) but it uses 3 times on my troups but not on my buildings...
Do you think it could be fixed ?

SoB AI BO starts with 3 Missionaries + 2 builders and then Canoness and then sister squads
I think it should got with only 2 Missionaries + Builders + 1 sister squad and then Canoness

In tier 1, AI lost several games because the commander unit is not backed by squad, eg :
2 squads + commander charge (ok)
1 squad is wounded and start to retreat and the last squad + commander fight
then 2 nd or commander is too wounded and retreat the last one who stands (either commander or squad)
does not have time to retreat and die... Ennemy squad chase them down and AI loose its troops one by one...

=> In tier 1, squads should follows commander and attack-move with him

Maybe we could find a common rule (no matter which race) regarding to fight ine tier 1 with 2-3 squads + commander unit

[LarkinVB]

What do you mean exactly with flexible? I try to set 2 for nomal maps and 3 for large maps, but I'm all ears for a better idea.

flag_capture (number of capturing squads) should be limited to 1 at T1 on normal maps as the AI will need as much squads as possible to fight. This can be increased if the army size is big enough or the map is big and initial fights are rare -> flexible

2 capturing squads aren't necessary but reducing fighting power under 'standard' conditions.

[Smokeskin]

Match: 1v1
Factions: Tau (Smokeskin) vs Eldar
Game Modes Used: Standard
Map: Battle Marshes
A.I Difficulty: Insane
Resources Rate: Normal
Resources Sharing: Off
Winner: Me

Comments:
Very fun game! 23 minutes, large t3 fights, I think I have half of the Tau units in my army. I can't just harass it to death on this map, and it puts up a very, very decent fight. I think I did very good throughout game with harassing it throughout by knocking down buildings with my stealth suits, vespids and barracudas - races without these mobile building destroyers I don't think I could've beaten it. I also used the various unit abilities very well imo. I think I played to the best of my ability, it was a very intense game, and anything less I wouldn't have beaten it.

Rush/early push:
The difference from this map to Outer Reaches is very great, the layout of Outer Reaches just makes early harassing and containment too effective. I can't just overwhelm it so early this map.

AI behavior
I think the game breaker was the fights at 4-6 minutes - if the AI had a few more troops there, and made a committed attack instead of running in, taking some losses, running off again, repeat (FotM really hurts it when it does it like that against my stationary Tau), it could probably have driven me off and won the SP back, or at least caused enough losses on my side to prevent me from teching and harassing it so much later on.
Overall I think it is too likely to attack with too few troops.
I also remember it attacking my base from undefended angles in 2.6 and below, something I've yet seen it do in 3.0? That is very effective if it isn't strong enough to take on my army!

2 soul shrines: It build 2 soul shrines - redundancy is nice, but not very cost effective.

Further testing:
I've just been playing to kick the crap out of the AI until now, and I think it gave some good results for how the AI plays and could play better in early game. I don't think there's much more to be learned by testing in that area currently.
I'm going to test how the AI plays DE and SoB late game next. If you devs have some other areas, specific match ups or something else you'd like testing, let me know and I'll do that

Attached Files

•  2P_BATTLE_MARSHES.2008_03_20.13_23_41.zip   162.07KB   1 downloads

[thudo]

In tier 1, AI lost several games because the commander unit is not backed by squad

D00d.. thats been around since 1.0 and will likely never be entirely resolved. Having a squad or a single commander unit going solo into uneven odds is regrettably not ever to be fully resolved. I think that goes for most RTSes out there where unless you have an RTS with true "formations" where the entire army moves "in sync" then you'll have these "solo artists" going out on their own.

Btw, I believe I have some preliminary DarkEldar and Sister BOs for inspection. These are the other three for each as the first one is the one we continue to use as default. These next three are new additions:

DARK ELDAR

-- Mass Warrior strat
3 Warrior
1 dark_eldar_upgrade_soulseeker_ammunition
2 Mandrake
1 dark_eldar_infiltration_mandrake_research
1 dark_eldar_poisoned_blades_research

--Mandrake/Hellion strat
1 Skimmer Shop
2 Mandrake
1 dark_eldar_infiltration_mandrake_research
2 Hellion
1 dark_eldar_poisoned_blades_research

--Reaver/Haemonculus strat
1 Skimmer shop
1 haemonculus_laboratory
3 Reavers
1 Haemonculus

SISTERS

-- Mass Sisters strat
3 Battle Sisters
1 sisters_phosphor_grenades_research

-- Seraphim strat
1 Sanctuary
2 Seraphims

-- Lightning Strat
1 Infantry
1 Sanctuary
1 HQ Addon1
1 Vehicle building
3 Lightning Fighters

[troubadour]

OK for moving in sync but could this thing could be adressed :

DE AI casts corrosion cloud (or whatever the name the acid coud that destroy building) but it uses 3 times on my squads but not on my buildings...

Cause the cloud does no damage to squads...

Edited by troubadour, 20 March 2008 - 02:03 PM.

[thudo]

Cause the cloud do no damage to squad...

Since when? The DE HQ Ability "Corrosive Cloud" eats enemy armour - not buildings. Its in the UCS for the ability, bro.

Creates an acidic cloud that eats away at enemy armor.

DE HQ ability are actually pretty damn solid and used far more efficiently then any human could ever do.

[Smokeskin]

Regarding BOs:

What you're listing is without commanders and an initial 2 mandrakes/missionaries I take it, they'll be built on top of that?

I like them all, they look good and interesting, perhaps except for the lightning strat, on the surface of it it looks too long without many units, and very power intensive.

What are the default BOs? I think they need some tweaking compared to what they are now, they're not working nearly as well as the other races imo.

[thudo]

What you're listing is without commanders and an initial 2 mandrakes/missionaries I take it, they'll be built on top of that?

Yes the BOs I suggested exclude the initial squads that are a given.

The Sisters' Lightning BO is an interesting one for a rarely-used BO because its the first "aircraft rush" BO. Nevetheless, it will be the 4th BO and not used often.

What are the default BOs? I think they need some tweaking compared to what they are now, they're not working nearly as well as the other races imo.

Those are being tweaked internally by us. I revamped the DE BO so Mandrakes get their Infiltration and wow that made a colossal difference. Hell.. Mandrake spam + their Infiltration early game is nasty. Sisters.. esshh.. revamped em too but they remind me of a user-created mod that is badly balanced. They seem like pathetic guardsmen with paper-thing buildings especially LPs. A SpaceMarine opponent can easily overrun em UNLESS Sisters catch a break.