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#161 Jeth Calark

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 03:04 AM

Yep, it is in December. December 2, to be exact. :p

alright, got some work for you, Folca. (on the Caspian faction)

1. some of the heroes are incomplete.
2. what level should the summoned Pevensies start at?
3. included what i had thought of for the summoned Pevensies. give me your ideas and suggestions for them.
4. missing a Tier Two power.

also, in the Witch's faction, we still don't have name for the building which recruits all the infantry.

OOH! I got a good idea! :p
How about using the terms Dwarven Armor and Dwarven Blades for the Heavy Armor and the Forged Blades upgrade? We could use these terms for the Narnian, Witch, and Caspian factions.

#162 Folca the Hunter

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 07:42 AM

Yep, it is in December. December 2, to be exact. :p

alright, got some work for you, Folca. (on the Caspian faction)

1. some of the heroes are incomplete.
2. what level should the summoned Pevensies start at?
3. included what i had thought of for the summoned Pevensies. give me your ideas and suggestions for them.
4. missing a Tier Two power.

also, in the Witch's faction, we still don't have name for the building which recruits all the infantry.

OOH! I got a good idea! :crazed:
How about using the terms Dwarven Armor and Dwarven Blades for the Heavy Armor and the Forged Blades upgrade? We could use these terms for the Narnian, Witch, and Caspian factions.


I am exhausted and time-pressed. I am only going to tell you a thing or two now, and post the rest later.

First, The Idea for Dwarven Armor is a good one, and should definately be implemented in the Narnia Faction, whose upgrade building, "Aslan's Forge" could definately have been run by dwarves. For the White Witch's, it is possible and a definate maybe, but perhaps we should call it Black Dwarven Armor/Weapons. It kinda implies a bit more of the evil side of the black dwarves. However, there is a quote I am fond of. "A soul can be evil, but his steel cannot." So perhaps Dwarven Armor/Weapons will work. For Caspian though, I like the idea and ring of history in the name of Ancient's Armor and Blades. If you honestly don't like it, I suppose we can change it, but my personal preference is Ancient's Armor/Blades.

The Mice I did not at all picture as pikemen, and I am honestly not sure it fits them. The Ankle Slicers are similar to mice in that they could run between the hoofs of the horses, but the main difference is that the Rapiers the mice used were made for stabbing, which would hurt a horse but not topple it. The Ankle Slicers Chakrams are made for Slashing through muscle and bone, cutting tendons. This would almost certainly topple something like a horse or centaur, or even a Rhino. The mice also didn't really kill any Telmarine horses, especially since a horse is too large to run from once he falls. A horse presents a little more danger from falling than a human when you're only a foot tall! In addition, I kind of pictured the mice as a completely unique unit, like the Telmarine Scout is a unique unit. The Mice are fast, stealthy, and have a powerful attack. However, they have weak defense due only to thier small size. It would allow them to move quickly and would force the enemy to constantly be on edge.

I have some ideas for the other things, but I don't have time right now. I will post them later.
There is much I choose to conceal from the world. I live among people, though they hold little interest for me in times of normality. My life has been quiet, and confined to what little I can glimpse from the fractures of my high life. I am a king. My realm is not of this world, but how can one rule what exists not in reality? I am a writer. I am a king. I am...alone.

The greatest of wealth can come from the smallest of men. From the smallest of wealth can come the greatest of men.

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#163 Folca the Hunter

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 12:11 AM

Okay, here are some more suggestions.

I suggest having the pevensies be summoned at level 8, which gives them a respectable amount of power, but doesn't make them overpowered.

As for powers, For Caspian, Perhaps a Telmarine Prince power which has the power to turn a small group of selected units to your side, but only for a short time. Otherwise, Caspian could capture and use an entire Telmarine army against Miraz over time. He could also have an Avenging Strike, which gives does some damage, and does even more if he is below 50% health.

For Trumpkin, he really only needs a basic sword attack. Since he is designed as an early-game hero, he doesnt really need a bunch of skills. Or perhaps a train archers command?

Peter looks alright, but I would add an attack skill or two, such as a shield bash attack, and maybe a High King's Cleave.

For Susan, I like the Idea of her Attracted power. I would make it so that Caspian has some sort of bonus near her too. In addition, since she seems to command the archers, you may want to add a leadership power for archers only.

I really like the idea of Edmund using his flashlight as a weapon. It reminds me of the elven alliance, where the team gave Sam the much feared weapon...the Frying Pan.
However, keep in mind that both the book and the movie refers to it as a Torch, since thats what they call flashlights in England. You may want to rename it with that respect. Also, keep in mind that Edmund seems to have been the better warrior in the books, so he could use a
Blademaster-esque power for his Caspian Character. (Remember, Edmund of Caspian is remembering his old skill from his reign as Edmund the Just, wheras the first movie he is still somewhat weak and untrained from being a prisoner of the Witch.)

I think Lucy's Searching for Aslan power should be renamed Faith in Aslan, and be activated to give Lucy stealth, but any nearby allies a bonus.

For the missing power, how about Stolen Supplies, which could be used to immobilize any Telmarine units and stop any resourse buildings in a specified area from functioning for a short time. Remember in the movie when Miraz finds his Waggons devoid of any weapons and provisions, and Glozelle wounded with 3 missing soldiers.

For the Witch's Barrack Building...how about something like the Loyalist's Cavern? It's a general enough term to allow for recruiting of allies, and it has a nice ring to it.

Thats all for now. Post your opinions later.

A tout a L'heure, as they say in France. (Oui, J'parle Francais)
There is much I choose to conceal from the world. I live among people, though they hold little interest for me in times of normality. My life has been quiet, and confined to what little I can glimpse from the fractures of my high life. I am a king. My realm is not of this world, but how can one rule what exists not in reality? I am a writer. I am a king. I am...alone.

The greatest of wealth can come from the smallest of men. From the smallest of wealth can come the greatest of men.

"http://www.majhost.c...pics/co_sig.jpg[/img

#164 Jeth Calark

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Posted 30 August 2008 - 09:59 PM

i have implemented Dwarven Armor and Blades for Narnia, and Black Dwarven Armor and Blades for the Witch. "Black" is just there to distinguish for the two factions. I kept Ancient's Armor/Blades.

The Mice I did not at all picture as pikemen, and I am honestly not sure it fits them........In addition, I kind of pictured the mice as a completely unique unit, like the Telmarine Scout is a unique unit. The Mice are fast, stealthy, and have a powerful attack. However, they have weak defense due only to thier small size. It would allow them to move quickly and would force the enemy to constantly be on edge.

good point you made above. i didn't think about their swords. the Mice are now a special unit, and the Fauns of the Narnian faction will also be Caspian's pikes. and the Mice certainly kept the Telmarines on edge! :glare:

I suggest having the pevensies be summoned at level 8, which gives them a respectable amount of power, but doesn't make them overpowered.

would never have thought of 8, but that does sound just right.

As for powers, For Caspian, Perhaps a Telmarine Prince power which has the power to turn a small group of selected units to your side, but only for a short time. Otherwise, Caspian could capture and use an entire Telmarine army against Miraz over time. He could also have an Avenging Strike, which gives does some damage, and does even more if he is below 50% health.

Telmarine Prince is good, but I'll stop there. He's very well powered now, especially with that Horn of Queen Susan.

For Trumpkin, he really only needs a basic sword attack. Since he is designed as an early-game hero, he doesnt really need a bunch of skills. Or perhaps a train archers command?

a basic sword attack will be good. can't think of a good name, though.

Peter looks alright, but I would add an attack skill or two, such as a shield bash attack, and maybe a High King's Cleave.

he does have Blademaster.

For Susan, I like the Idea of her Attracted power. I would make it so that Caspian has some sort of bonus near her too. In addition, since she seems to command the archers, you may want to add a leadership power for archers only.

added Attracted to Caspian.

I really like the idea of Edmund using his flashlight as a weapon. It reminds me of the elven alliance, where the team gave Sam the much feared weapon...the Frying Pan.
However, keep in mind that both the book and the movie refers to it as a Torch, since thats what they call flashlights in England. You may want to rename it with that respect. Also, keep in mind that Edmund seems to have been the better warrior in the books, so he could use a
Blademaster-esque power for his Caspian Character. (Remember, Edmund of Caspian is remembering his old skill from his reign as Edmund the Just, wheras the first movie he is still somewhat weak and untrained from being a prisoner of the Witch.)

oh, yeah, they are referred to as Torches. I'm American, so British terms sometimes won't click. I'll change that. Blademaster is good too.

I think Lucy's Searching for Aslan power should be renamed Faith in Aslan, and be activated to give Lucy stealth, but any nearby allies a bonus

Faith in Aslan is a good name. changed power.

For the missing power, how about Stolen Supplies, which could be used to immobilize any Telmarine units and stop any resourse buildings in a specified area from functioning for a short time. Remember in the movie when Miraz finds his Waggons devoid of any weapons and provisions, and Glozelle wounded with 3 missing soldiers.

OOH! ;) that's good! we can make it so that affects one building at a time. the player casts it on a enemy resource building, and all resources the building produces goes to the spellcaster for the duration of the spell. also, the destroy building button is disabled.
and it would affect buildings from all factions.

For the Witch's Barrack Building...how about something like the Loyalist's Cavern? It's a general enough term to allow for recruiting of allies, and it has a nice ring to it.

that's good. we can make it look like a ice cave or something.



something else to think on. we don't have a name for the upgrade building for the Witch, and Glenstorm from Caspian's faction is missing powers. :thumbsupsmiley:

#165 Folca the Hunter

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Posted 30 August 2008 - 11:12 PM

For Glenstorm, maybe a power like "Enemy of Telmar" which could be activated and have a similar effect to Aragorn's Elendil power. It frightens away enemy troops and leaves them unable to fight. In addition, how about a "Rally the Hidden Ones" which could summon some troops to him for a limited time, since the movie implies that he gathered the majority of the Narnians. Perhaps a "Stargazer's Insight" power, which could reveal an area of the map, or increase his field of vision.

For the Witch's Upgrade building, how about a term like Dark Forgeworks. It's Evil, and its a forge. What more do you need?

In terms of English Terms, I'm American too, but I spent a few years of my life living in Europe. Also, I read a lot of books written in England, just because I like reading, and thus I gather knowledge of English Terms.

Edited by Folca the Hunter, 30 August 2008 - 11:24 PM.

There is much I choose to conceal from the world. I live among people, though they hold little interest for me in times of normality. My life has been quiet, and confined to what little I can glimpse from the fractures of my high life. I am a king. My realm is not of this world, but how can one rule what exists not in reality? I am a writer. I am a king. I am...alone.

The greatest of wealth can come from the smallest of men. From the smallest of wealth can come the greatest of men.

"http://www.majhost.c...pics/co_sig.jpg[/img

#166 Jeth Calark

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 03:04 AM

all those ideas for Glenstorm are good, I'll take them gladly! :glare:

I decided on Witch's Armory. the Tels already had siegeworks, and Narnia had Forge. Armory was a term not yet used.

I do believe we're done with the tech trees...... :thumbsupsmiley: should I post them all up?

#167 Ring o' Fate

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 06:21 AM

Well, what are you waiting for?! Aslan to arrive?! :)
Post them!
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#168 Folca the Hunter

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 06:07 PM

Just so you know, I said Forgeworks, not seigeworks. But Witch's Armory is good enough for me.

Yes, I say post the tech trees.
There is much I choose to conceal from the world. I live among people, though they hold little interest for me in times of normality. My life has been quiet, and confined to what little I can glimpse from the fractures of my high life. I am a king. My realm is not of this world, but how can one rule what exists not in reality? I am a writer. I am a king. I am...alone.

The greatest of wealth can come from the smallest of men. From the smallest of wealth can come the greatest of men.

"http://www.majhost.c...pics/co_sig.jpg[/img

#169 Jeth Calark

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Posted 01 September 2008 - 03:20 AM

the Narnia mod tech trees are now here!

i was going to post it all out, but then i realized just how long all of it was..... :) so you will still have to download them.




Download them, read them, and post your praises, concerns, awes, and suggestions!!!!

Edited by Jeth Calark, 02 September 2008 - 01:18 AM.


#170 Folca the Hunter

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Posted 01 September 2008 - 08:25 AM

As always Jeth, the ideas are great, but I have a few small suggestions and adjustments. At least I am not intending on starting another 4 page minotaur/cyclops dispute!

I'll Start with Narnia.

First, just call the faction Narnia.

Second, when I suggested Oreius difference in weaponry, when i said slow, i meant his attack speed was slowed, not his movement speed. All that is going to happen in this case is people will use the dual-swords for movement and then switch to the greatsword in combat. If we make it so that the Smaller swords do less damage, but strike faster, that balances the bigger sword.

Third, while the enchanted grove can be built on only settlement spaces, allow the beast homestead to be build on either base building plots or in settlement spaces, so that people can have a choice. More Resourses, or a Rally Point for warriors. It does make the faction a little less linear.

Fourth, if the Vanguard unit is elite, then why is it recruited at a level one Dancing Lawn? It should be that Dwarves and Fauns are recruited at level 1, and the vanguard at level 2.


For Caspian:

Space out Trumkins powers a little bit. Like

1:Weapon Toggle
3:Sword Cleave
4:Wounding Arrow

Since the Sons of Glenstorm (which is what I think they should be called, since it is a little more regal than Glenstorm's Sons) are such a powerful unit, I feel that they should be recruited from a level 3 Glenstorm's Grove. Otherwise, its a little bit too powerful early on.

Lastly, don't make the upgrades too overpriced. Instead, why not implement something like Gondor's system. At the default with only one Armory, thier upgrades cost 600 resources, twice as much as the other factions. However, if they build more Armories, the price goes down. Similarly, if the Narnians found more old treasure-chambers, there would be more to go around, and there would be less competition. If your trying to make the factions balanced, let me tell you what I had in mind.

Narnia:

Strength: Cheaper units than other factions, and also somewhat faster.
Weakness: Relatively Weak early-game

Witch:

Strength: Powerful, Brutish Units
Weakness: Relatively unintelligent soldiers, combined with lack of mobility.

Caspian:

Strength: Stealthy Units skilled at ambush
Weakness: Comparably weak in traditional combat, with expensive-ish units and upgrades

Telmar:

Strength: Unique blend of individual strength combined with ordered discipline
Weakness: Stubbornly Traditional, and not particularly imaginative (meaning they don't have a lot of unorthodox maneuvers)


For the Witch:

Rename Maugrim's "Head of the Secret Police" to Captain of the Secret Police, which is what the movie calls him.

For Witch's Winter, Dont make any changes to the other "Nuke Powers" because that overpowers Witch's Winter. It's powerful enough halting units and building functions for a period of time without weakening the other factions powers.

The basic infantry is spelled Minoboars, not minobaurs.

Rename Monsters to Witch's Legion, which sounds cooler in my opinion.

Great fane is satisfactory, although I would much prefer it to be called Favored Fane.

The Witch's wall upgrades are kind of bland. I would add something like an Ice Spire which would weaken enemies that approached it. It at least gives a little more variety to the walls.


For Telmar:

I just want to say that I am really pleased the way Telmar turned out. I think that it's my favorite of the factions we have brainstormed up, and I can't wait to actually see it in game.

For once, I cannot find a single thing wrong with this faction.


Overall:

I am really pleased with how long this spirit has kept up, and I am looking forward to working with you still Jeth Calark. I am incredibly pleased that you had the mind and the will to start this mod that I myself have wanted for a while. The Chronicles of Narnia are great movies and were my all-time favorite books (until I was finally able to read The Lord of the Rings) and still are in my top 2. I feel we have at least managed to show the people who were critisizing us for our lack of experience that we won't give up without a fight.

But now of course we have the task of implementing all these ideas into the game, but I have full confidence that we can do this.

Come on, Jeth! We will create a mod worthy of the Revora community! We will create a mod worthy of Aslan's Favor! Onwards! :p

Edited by Folca the Hunter, 01 September 2008 - 05:08 PM.

There is much I choose to conceal from the world. I live among people, though they hold little interest for me in times of normality. My life has been quiet, and confined to what little I can glimpse from the fractures of my high life. I am a king. My realm is not of this world, but how can one rule what exists not in reality? I am a writer. I am a king. I am...alone.

The greatest of wealth can come from the smallest of men. From the smallest of wealth can come the greatest of men.

"http://www.majhost.c...pics/co_sig.jpg[/img

#171 Jeth Calark

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 01:08 AM

As always Jeth, the ideas are great

as are your ideas!

First, just call the faction Narnia.

okay.

Second, when I suggested Oreius difference in weaponry, when i said slow, i meant his attack speed was slowed, not his movement speed. All that is going to happen in this case is people will use the dual-swords for movement and then switch to the greatsword in combat. If we make it so that the Smaller swords do less damage, but strike faster, that balances the bigger sword.

then why toggle? if his dual swords strike faster but have lesser damage, therefore making it equal over a period of time with the greatsword, then why?
maybe we could make it so that dual swords give greater damage to some types of units, and the greatsword to others.

Third, while the enchanted grove can be built on only settlement spaces, allow the beast homestead to be build on either base building plots or in settlement spaces, so that people can have a choice. More Resourses, or a Rally Point for warriors. It does make the faction a little less linear.

it already is that way. fixed the tech tree to make that clearer.

Fourth, if the Vanguard unit is elite, then why is it recruited at a level one Dancing Lawn? It should be that Dwarves and Fauns are recruited at level 1, and the vanguard at level 2.

error. fixed.

Space out Trumkins powers a little bit. Like

1:Weapon Toggle
3:Sword Cleave
4:Wounding Arrow

okay, but i did it 1, 2, 4. that way he has a special power available soon after buying him. that, and a little boost to help achieve level 4.

Since the Sons of Glenstorm (which is what I think they should be called, since it is a little more regal than Glenstorm's Sons) are such a powerful unit, I feel that they should be recruited from a level 3 Glenstorm's Grove. Otherwise, its a little bit too powerful early on.

i don't care about either name, so Sons of Glenstorm it is. yes, they should be recruited at a Level 3 building. tech tree changed.

Lastly, don't make the upgrades too overpriced. Instead, why not implement something like Gondor's system. At the default with only one Armory, thier upgrades cost 600 resources, twice as much as the other factions. However, if they build more Armories, the price goes down. Similarly, if the Narnians found more old treasure-chambers, there would be more to go around, and there would be less competition.

no, the upgrades will not be overpriced. We'll test it to where it should be. the idea about discounts with each Armory (which for Caspian is the Treasure Chamber) is a good one, it presents the player with a way to decrease the cost. However, no matter what, upgrades for the Caspian faction will still cost more than their cousins in other factions.
EXAMPLE: if both the Telmarines and Caspian have all their discounts in effect, the Telmarines will still be paying less money.

If your trying to make the factions balanced, let me tell you what I had in mind.

Narnia:

Strength: Cheaper units than other factions, and also somewhat faster.
Weakness: Relatively Weak early-game

Witch:

Strength: Powerful, Brutish Units
Weakness: Relatively unintelligent soldiers, combined with lack of mobility.

Caspian:

Strength: Stealthy Units skilled at ambush
Weakness: Comparably weak in traditional combat, with expensive-ish units and upgrades

Telmar:

Strength: Unique blend of individual strength combined with ordered discipline
Weakness: Stubbornly Traditional, and not particularly imaginative (meaning they don't have a lot of unorthodox maneuvers)

will talk about that further down.

For the Witch:

Rename Maugrim's "Head of the Secret Police" to Captain of the Secret Police, which is what the movie calls him.

good catch. it has been changed.

For Witch's Winter, Dont make any changes to the other "Nuke Powers" because that overpowers Witch's Winter. It's powerful enough halting units and building functions for a period of time without weakening the other factions powers.

okay, but how about that it will halt the movement of the other Nuke Powers? that way, a Witch player has a defense against the other's Nukes.

The basic infantry is spelled Minoboars, not minobaurs.

oops. guess i should have run spell check? :rolleyes:

Rename Monsters to Witch's Legion, which sounds cooler in my opinion.

I don't think that is a good idea, because to me, the word "legion" brings to mind Roman troops in look alike armor and precise formations. Not the type of image that fits the Witch.

Great fane is satisfactory, although I would much prefer it to be called Favored Fane.

i used Great instead of Favored because, technically, all the Fanes would have been favored by the Witch.

The Witch's wall upgrades are kind of bland. I would add something like an Ice Spire which would weaken enemies that approached it. It at least gives a little more variety to the walls.

The name Ice Tower is not very imaginative, I'll agree. I'll rename it Ice Spire. I like your idea, but let me add a twist. Instead of a Ice Spire, how about a Stone Statue? this wall upgrade would build a stone statue of some poor creature as a warning, sort of saying "Attack us, and this is what will happen!" of course, its ingame effect would be to weaken nearby enemies.

For Telmar:

I just want to say that I am really pleased the way Telmar turned out. I think that it's my favorite of the factions we have brainstormed up, and I can't wait to actually see it in game.

For once, I cannot find a single thing wrong with this faction.

We're making progress!! :crazed:


alright, back to the whole balance issue. Here's what I have envisioned:

Narnia:
Pros: excellent cavalry
Cons: somewhat lackluster infantry, but good in themselves with some upgrades
Final Note: somewhat like Rohan

White Witch:
Pros: excellent infantry, possibly the best of all the factions.
Cons: lacking in the cavalry department.
Final Note: pretty much Narnia's opposite.

Caspian:
Pros: cheap units with almost all of them possessing stealth. abundance of heroes.
Cons: pricier upgrades compared to other factions. unit strength lesser than other factions.
Final Note: spam your units and get your heroes. and try not to let the game wear on too long.

Telmar:
Pros: a well rounded faction, all units are considered good in their areas.
Cons: due to their jack-of-all-trades approach, the Telmarines don't have an area where they excel. (Narnia in cavalry, Witch in infantry, Caspian in stealth)
Final Note: plays a lot like Gondor. keep it steady.


Overall:

I am really pleased with how long this spirit has kept up, and I am looking forward to working with you still Jeth Calark. I am incredibly pleased that you had the mind and the will to start this mod that I myself have wanted for a while. The Chronicles of Narnia are great movies and were my all-time favorite books (until I was finally able to read The Lord of the Rings) and still are in my top 2. I feel we have at least managed to show the people who were critisizing us for our lack of experience that we won't give up without a fight.

But now of course we have the task of implementing all these ideas into the game, but I have full confidence that we can do this.

Come on, Jeth! We will create a mod worthy of the Revora community! We will create a mod worthy of Aslan's Favor! Onwards! :blush:

I too share those same feelings. :p (btw, twenty coolness points for spelling my name right. it seems everyone mispells it!)

I would also like to say that anyone is free to comment on the tech trees.

Edited by Jeth Calark, 04 September 2008 - 02:08 AM.


#172 mike_

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 02:07 AM

They seem pretty well-done...agreed on all points.

Well, except for using the Bears as a siege unit for Caspian...I think Trees and Giants would be better.

#173 Ring o' Fate

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 02:10 AM

I get it:
Rohan= Narnia.
Isengard=Wight Witch.
Gondor= Telmar.
Mordor=Caspian.
And Jeth Calark, keep up the good work!
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#174 Jeth Calark

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 03:41 AM

dont think we even put trees in. Folca, do you think we can put trees in somewhere? they were important characters in the movie...

@Ring of Fate: sort of.

#175 Folca the Hunter

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 04:08 AM

I dont want to start another total war, but here is a thought on the factions.

When you create a faction, you strive for total uniqueness. No shortcuts, no premade templates. That is why I want to be able to make each faction unique. When you create a faction, don't just think about what already is, think about the faction you are creating. Thier weapons, thier figures, thier movements, and thier motives. That is why I still disagree tooth and nail about your idea of making them similar to existing factions. That is why it makes my knuckles itch each time when i see you say something like "They will function like Gondor" (no, that is not meant as a threatening term. My knuckles really do itch when I don't like something)

Look at almost every BFME 1 mod adding a new faction. The Elven Alliance, The Rhovanion Alliance. Are they creating copycat factions? No. Each one has a strength and a weakness unique to that faction only, which really warrants a truly unique faction.

Your ideas for our factions, in my opinion, are not really that good, Im sorry to say. Especially for Caspian. They have relatively few because they have been in hiding. I know Caspian says "Strength in numbers we Telmarines could not imagine", but what that means is that the Telmarines thought that there were maybe a couple dozen Narnians in hiding. Telmar's power is still far greater than Narnia's. They cannot afford to "Spam" thier units. The heroes are mighty, but think of real terms. Can a war be won by 7 people against several hundred? No! You would need an army, not a party! Plus, any faun can stand up to a Telmarine, and a minotaur could stand up to several! They are not at all weaker than the enemy in terms of individual strength. Not to sound mean, but WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?! That isn't Caspians Narnia AT ALL!


The way you put most of them would be good for something like Medieval Total War, where the factions do have things like Weak Cavalry but strong infantry. But in this game, look at the existing factions.

Gondor: A well rounded group of units excelling nowhere, but lacking nowhere, cabable of being mighty with upgrades. Thier Weakness is thier plainness

Rohan: A cavalry reliant nation needing to defend themselves until late game, when they can strike back with Rohirrim. Thier weakness is weak early game defensive power.

Isengard: Extremely capable of Blitzkrieg style warfare early-on, but less and less able as the game goes on, due to expensive units and enemy counterattack.

Mordor: Using Orc-Spam to keep the pressure up on opponents to keep them occupied, while building up a powerful striking force of trolls and mumakil to smash thier foes late-game. Thier weakness is thier pathetic defense throught the game.


I truly believe my forementioned plan, with my reasons for thinking this added, would make the game much more balanced, unique, and worthy, and it would give us the satisfaction of knowing we didn't cut corners, which I feel we are by using existing faction templates.

Narnia:

Strength: Cheaper units than other factions, and also somewhat faster.
Weakness: Relatively Weak early-game
Reasons: Thier units give thier all to Aslan once they are rallied, but at first, they have been beaten into submission by the witch. That is why they are cheap, but weak early game.

Witch:

Strength: Powerful, Brutish Units
Weakness: Relatively unintelligent soldiers, combined with lack of mobility.
Reasons: Aside from the tiny Ankle Slicers, most of the witch's units seem more built for power rather than for etiquette. However, they also seem larger and slower.

Caspian:

Strength: Stealthy Units skilled at ambush
Weakness: Comparably weak in traditional combat, with expensive-ish units and upgrades
Reasons: They have been in hiding for many years, and thier numbers are relatively low. However, hiding from the Telmarines has made them adept at moving about unseen.

Telmar:

Strength: Unique blend of individual strength combined with ordered discipline
Weakness: Stubbornly Traditional, and not particularly imaginative (meaning they don't have a lot of unorthodox maneuvers)
Reasons: The Telmarines use little magic, if any, but have a sense of honor and duty, as well as exceptional military training.


I don't want to start another war with you, but i will say this. It's either compromise or agree with me, because I simply cannot agree with your idea on how the factions are. It's not that I'm stubborn and that I won't, but I simply can't. Your ideas for them just seem too...cheap for me.

I wont try to intimidate or insult you, but I will not change my views without good solid proof. I simply strongly feel that we are cutting corners and skipping steps just to hurry ourselves along. I was raised to do everything to the most perfect you can make it, and I will do my utmost here as well.


On a completely different note, Mike, the trees didn't join until the very end of the war, wheras the bears were among the first to join Caspian in the book. In addition, Caspian only had one giant, and even he was an undersized one. Also, keep in mind that Talking bears are bigger than regular bears, and could give a gate a run for its money, and throw a quarter ton stone like a baseball. Bears are perfectly capable as siege units.

Back to you Jeth, Witch's winter should Halt the movements of the Balrog, Army of the Dead, and Aslan on the map, but only for half as long, because then the other factions have no defense against the Witch's Winter. But then again, if the Balrog is a fire monster, does it make sense that it should move slower in the winter? And the Army of the Dead, theyre dead. They dont feel cold. Aslan is perfectly capable of shrugging it off. Does any of this make sense?!

I dont like the name of the Monsters unit because it just sounds too cheesy.

I have to go. Chew over my ideas, and I'll be sure we will argue some more on the factions. I dont want this issue to end our friendship and our teamwork, but I dont want to go through this mod feeling like we slacked off either. :blush:

As for adding trees, we could add an "Awaken the Dryads" power for Caspian, which could summon trees, since the Dryads are the ones who make the trees fight.

Edited by Folca the Hunter, 02 September 2008 - 04:10 AM.

There is much I choose to conceal from the world. I live among people, though they hold little interest for me in times of normality. My life has been quiet, and confined to what little I can glimpse from the fractures of my high life. I am a king. My realm is not of this world, but how can one rule what exists not in reality? I am a writer. I am a king. I am...alone.

The greatest of wealth can come from the smallest of men. From the smallest of wealth can come the greatest of men.

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#176 Ring o' Fate

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 08:15 PM

I was just trying to get the idea of the factions strengths and weaknesses for cring out loud!! So I have made a mistake, so what?! I'll just stop there to prevent war from breaking out.
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#177 Jeth Calark

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 09:13 PM

He was just trying to get a general idea of strengths and weaknesses, Folca. No need to jump over him. :good: and i said:

sort of


Remember, it always boils down to balance vs. realism. No, none of the factions will be copies of the existing ones. Although I believe Telmar will resemble Gondor. Both cultures are pretty similar. Both have a professional army of well-equipped and well-trained soldiers, but neither excelled in any area. Both believed highly in honor and duty.

i do think about what that faction is about. but when people ask, "how will this faction operate?", it is helpful to compare to factions people already know well.

lets start with what I know for sure.

Narnia: fast, with good cavalry (the centaurs)
Witch: almost the opposite of Narnia, which should lead to something interesting. slowish, but with powerful infantry.
Caspian: stealthy, but expensive upgrades.
Telmarine: they don't lack in strength, but they don't excel. their troops would rate in the middle for every category.

as for the Monsters, perhaps we could call them Witch's Brutes? (or better yet, the Brute Squad! :p just kidding on that.) you yourself called them brutish.

Bears are definitely a good siege unit. i don't think Talking Bears were bigger than ordinary ones though. direct quote from The Magician's Nephew:

The smaller ones--the rabbits, moles and suck-like--grew a great deal larger. The very big ones--you noticed it most with the elephants--grew a little smaller.

since the bear is neither small nor very big compared to some creatures, i think he would have stayed the same size. but I'm pretty sure a grizzly bear in real life has quite enough strength to throw some very heavy stuff.

on Witch's Winter and other Nuke Powers, it again comes to balance and realism. i suggest that Witch's Winter does nothing to other Nuke Powers for now, and in the course of testing we can better determine what is viable.

as for the trees, I forgot we already have a Summon Dryads power (which i think I'l rename to Awaken the Dryads). In Narnia, Dryads and trees were pretty much the same thing.

you didn't mention anything about my idea on Oreius' swords.

#178 Folca the Hunter

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 12:04 AM

To flameguard, my last comment was aimed primarily at Jeth, and I had no intentions of disgracing or offending you. You have my apologies if I did wrong you in any way.

To Jeth, I am going to tell you my thoughts for each faction one at a time, starting with Narnia, then The Witch, then Telmar, Then Caspian.

I was believing that Narnia's units should be cheaper that certain units because once the torch of hope was lit by the arrival of the Pevensies in Lantern Waste, and Aslan's return from across the sea, the Narnians pulled together thier entire army almost instantly, and everyone joined. Even Beaver was armored and with a bow in the Battle of Beruna. However, if you look at the scene when the army is charging towards the witch, you will see her army hasn't really moved far, but on Narnia's side, the Fauns and Satyrs are almost keeping pace with the centaurs. That's why I thought that ALL of thier units, exept perhaps the dwarves, should move with more speed than in the other factions. But then again, look at the faction early game. Look at Tumnus the Faun for example. His hair and beard seem somewhat unkempt, his home is small and, though cozy, rather poor (I mean poor as in he doesn't have a lot to go around) His Scarf is frayed and worn, and he seems very, very nervous. Any narnian would be. They have had thier will to fight completely beaten out of them for the past hundred years. Plus, even when they do finally find it in themselves to rebel, it will still be a while before they are capable of taking on the war-hardened army of the Witch. Even when the Pevensies and the Beavers arrive at the camp, they are still making weapons and armor, because they don't yet have enough. In fact, I somewhat pictured the early game Narnians being primarily unarmored. Like for example, the fauns would have spears, but would only be wearing thier Scarves. The Centaurs would have swords and shields, but have no helms or body armor. That symbolizes the beginning of the rebellion until the dwarves can get thier forges up and running, and eliminate the silver-to-gold armor color change that i HATE in the existing game (which is a reason why I play Elven Alliance primarily now). That is quite a list there in my opinion, and this is only for the Narnia faction! This is going to be a long post...

For the Witch, you are right in that the two sides are almost polar opposites. Even the dwarves are different! And I think you are right. They should be slow, unyeilding, powerful early game, but I think thier power should wane somewhat later. I don't really know where to go with this one, so we need to work with this one. That was fairly short. Maybe this will be shorter than I thought...

For Telmar, when I said strength, I didn't mean it literally. In this case, I meant unit strength. I say this for thier blend of trained units, such as the Soldiers and Crossbowmen, but in strength, I was referring to thier special units, The Captain and Phalanx, who alone are more powerful than the standard unit. Also, they are similar to Gondor, but still very different. Men take after thier leaders. Look at Gondor and Telmar's leaders. With Gondor, aside from Denethor, most of Gondor's Captains are honorable and just, and even Denethor was like this before his wife's death weakened him, and Boromir's death destroyed him. But look at Telmar. Look at Miraz, a tyrannical murderer who killed everyone who could stand in his way to take the Throne, even trying to kill his own nephew. Look at Glozelle, a blindly loyal general who follows Miraz out of loyal fear. Look at Sopespian, who is a selfish and spiteful wretch who betrays those he is sworn to serve. The men of Telmar would fear these lords and would probably live in utter fear of thier own lords, rather than thier enemies. It says so right in the book that Miraz's men were more afraid of him than of the Narnians. Balance thier units out, yes, but allow room for the powerful units. And do remember. The only stealthy unit for the Telmarines are thier scouts. Okay...maybe I was wrong...this post will still be long...

For Caspian, I agree that upgrades should be more pricy, but not by much! I believe that they should have an upgrade cost system similar to Gondor's because they would have more upgrades to go around if they found more Treasure Chambers. I do however think that they cost more by default anyway. But do keep in mind that the smallest change can add up. For example an increase of 100 resources with maximum discount for 400 resources. Alone, that seems like very little, but if you consider that the average game ending army contains about 10-15 units, all upgraded, that adds up to 1000-1500 resourses extra, which is a pretty big chunk out of your coffers. Therefore, yes to more expensive upgrades, but make it No less than 100, no more than 150. And definately NO NO NO to cheap spammy units for that faction. It is 3872916343% incompatable for that faction. At long last...this discussion can end...for me...for now...


Now, on to other matters.

Witch's Brutes it fine enough for me. Much better than "Monsters" was anyway.

For the Power Awaken the Dryads, the dryads and trees aren't the same. Trees are...you know. Dryads are tree spirits. However, the Dryads were the ones who controlled the trees, so it works to Awaken them.

I know quite a bit about bears. My cousin wants to become a Yellowstone Park Ranger, and he and I talk about the local Fauna of the park a lot. Brown/Black bears are pretty small, though strong, and are basically Giant Raccoons. A fully grown grizzly bear is HUGE and fierce. They would definately make good seige units. Bears can smash with force enough to topple huge trees, and they can throw a quarter-ton log through the air like a boomerang. They could be quite a hazard to a castle, especially one made of ice...

Oreius's swords. I was thinking that maybe...the dual swords attack faster, do less damage, but hit 2 foes at once. They are his Crowd-Control swords. His greatsword could attack slower, do more damage, but hit only one foe. Therefore, his dual swords are good for killing things like Minoboars, Dwarves, Ankle-Slicers, and Wolves, while his greatsword is good for killing Minotaurs, Cyclopes, Ogres, and Heroes. Either set seems to be alright against Tigers, and hags seem killable by anything, since they are noncombatants.

So, I have a two-page Chemistry report to write. I'll chat with you later.

Edited by Folca the Hunter, 03 September 2008 - 12:08 AM.

There is much I choose to conceal from the world. I live among people, though they hold little interest for me in times of normality. My life has been quiet, and confined to what little I can glimpse from the fractures of my high life. I am a king. My realm is not of this world, but how can one rule what exists not in reality? I am a writer. I am a king. I am...alone.

The greatest of wealth can come from the smallest of men. From the smallest of wealth can come the greatest of men.

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#179 Ring o' Fate

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 12:12 AM

FLAMEGUARD?! WTF!!! Ok, sorry, but next time, get my name RIGHT!! And sorry for snaping at you for the faction thing. No hard feelings right?
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#180 Jeth Calark

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 03:58 AM

I agree on Narnia having fast units. and yeah, the gold armor doesn't fit some factions, but Narnia seems to use a lot of red and gold, so I'll give it to them. (but make it more gold-looking)

ah, the Elven Alliance. let us pause for a moment in respect...pause over, moving on.

yes, Telmar didn't have exactly the best leaders. but it does say in the book that the younger Tels were of the same mind as Caspian. It was the older Tels, and especially the ones with high positions, that followed Miraz's example. but that is a lore discussion. :thumbsupdrool:

We'll tinker with the upgrades cost as we make the mod. I'll start it out at 150 above normal, and work from there. technically, every faction will have a spammable unit of some sort.

Witch's Brutes it is. :D

I don't think anyone disagrees that having a grizzly bear knocking on your door is any fun. :D

Oreius' swords. Dual swords will have a better attack toward infantry, hags, and anything else that walks. His greatsword will be better toward cavalry, heroes, and monsters. little swords for little stuff, big sword for big stuff. ;)

if everything else besides the above is already decided and satisfactory, i will release the new version of the tech trees.




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