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What you hate about EA's version of Helms Deep


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#21 Grizzlez

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 10:07 PM

One thing EA did with all archers that annoyed me wa that, no matter how far away an archer is to his enemy, his accuracy remained the same-surely if your twice as far away your not going to be as accurate. You could give archers a weapon toggle-only changes the accuracy and the distance.

Most of the other things have been said.

An idea for the camps, an isengard flag at the bottom of the map, from here the player can 'build' units except they work as reinforcements-so if you buy swordsmen after a period of time you get swordsmen. This means the player has some control over its choice of an army without having a camp. Give the player resources every now and then (length of time before given resoruces depends on balance) and let them decide on the army. Make the flag indestructible as well-but have it so if the attacker has no units on the map-then he loses. So they always need to ensure to have someone alive.

The bomb was too cheap and really weak-I think making it like 2-3000 and giving it twice the health will be better for this map because of the significance.
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#22 Rob38

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 08:07 AM

Though it would be fun to have some uruks waiting by the gate, launch an attack on the wall, then attack the gate....
Though that might still be possible, depending upon the skill of the defender.......
Is it possible to see the whole map on single player, but then not on multiplayer?

You will most certainly be able to have the uruks attacking both the deeping wall and gate at the same time and will probably happen quite often in the campaign. :p For the multiplayer mode, I probably will do something similar to how it is set-up in single player ( unless people want fog of war for both sides on multiplayer).

you know in the EA's quality of Helms Deep,there was a connection between the deeping wall and keep?i hate that.make some stairs so people would go up the stairs and into the keep.

Already been fixed. :p

An idea for the camps, an isengard flag at the bottom of the map, from here the player can 'build' units except they work as reinforcements-so if you buy swordsmen after a period of time you get swordsmen. This means the player has some control over its choice of an army without having a camp. Give the player resources every now and then (length of time before given resoruces depends on balance) and let them decide on the army. Make the flag indestructible as well-but have it so if the attacker has no units on the map-then he loses. So they always need to ensure to have someone alive.

The bomb was too cheap and really weak-I think making it like 2-3000 and giving it twice the health will be better for this map because of the significance.

Interesting idea there. I may implement something like that in multiplayer mode. :unsure: As for the bomb, it will be much more expensive but also will be much much harder to destroy. Plus, since there are no more fire arrows, they won't be easy targets to destroy.

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#23 SovietSoldier

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 01:04 AM

remember,there were very few uruk crossbows,so we don't want many uruk crossbows.we all know that the deeping wall will be taken,because of the new mines,and because most of the uruks attacked the deeping wall.

also,make sure the riders of rohan have axes and pikes.make it that they arent going to be the same units in one horde.probably most will have pikes,while others have axes.
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#24 Devon

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 02:46 AM

I see I'm gonna lose this battle :) Oh well...

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#25 Rob38

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 05:02 PM

remember,there were very few uruk crossbows,so we don't want many uruk crossbows.

Yeah, well there will be a lot more than what was shown in the movie. :ohmy: As for the exact amount, it's going to be more of a balance issue in determining the number.

also,make sure the riders of rohan have axes and pikes.make it that they aren't going to be the same units in one horde.probably most will have pikes,while others have axes.

I could most certainly do that, although it's low on the priority list at the moment. :grin:

I see I'm gonna lose this battle ^_^ Oh well...

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#26 CIL

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 06:10 PM

I honestly don't like the fact that BFME Helm's Deep uses ballistae instead of catapults. TTT video game uses catapults instead and they were more realistic. It adds to realism. Ballistae should only be for mounting up the high latters.
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#27 Lauri

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 09:24 PM

In the movies they only had ballistas... But they weren't used for destroying anything :p

I also noticed that Conquest had catapults as well... such a.. ehm, nice... game..

Can't remember what the books said though... truth is, can't remember either cats or balls from the books ;)

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#28 Ring o' Fate

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 09:30 PM

I don't think they even used either. ;)
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#29 CIL

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 06:20 AM

Catapults would still be more realistic. MUCH more realistic :p.

Besides, wouldn't it also look more correct than having ballista arrows... or whatever they are... that explode?

Edited by CIL, 18 March 2009 - 06:24 AM.

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#30 Rob38

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 04:45 PM

The ballistas will have two purposes in the map. One, they will be used to bring up the large ladders on the Hornburg walls. Two, they will be used to attack units on the wall. If you remember from the movie, one person was hit directly by a ballista arrow and went flying from the Hornburg wall. That's what they do in this mod. :p

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#31 CIL

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 09:04 PM

Yes, but that was one person. They didn't explode and kill 10 people at once. Catapults were used in the games to wipe out units on the wall. It felt more realistic.

Edited by CIL, 18 March 2009 - 09:04 PM.

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#32 Elvenlord

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 02:36 AM

The ballistas will have two purposes in the map. One, they will be used to bring up the large ladders on the Hornburg walls. Two, they will be used to attack units on the wall. If you remember from the movie, one person was hit directly by a ballista arrow and went flying from the Hornburg wall. That's what they do in this mod. :good:


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#33 CIL

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 03:06 AM

If it's only against one person or 2 or 3 in a row, that's fine, but if it fires at the Deeping Wall or hits people horizontal to where it hits, that will just be unrealistic.
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#34 Námo

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 10:15 AM

concerning ballistas ...


In the movies they only had ballistas... But they weren't used for destroying anything :p
...
Can't remember what the books said though... truth is, can't remember either cats or balls from the books :popcorn:

1st statement is correct, in the movie the ballistas are not firing arrows, but anchors with robes attached!
...
As for the books: the only references to siege equipment, apart from battering rams and 'devilry from Orthanc' (=blasting fire), are these:

Attacking the Deeping Wall:

"Ropes with grappling hooks were hurled over the parapet faster than men could cut them or fling them back. Hundreds of long ladders were lifted up." (p. 122)

"... a hundred ladders were raised against the battlement." (p. 124)

Attacking the Hornburg:

"Grappling-hooks were hurled, and ladders raised." (p. 126)

So, there are no ballistas in the books, and from a 'realistic' point of view they are rather unwieldy constructions: the wheels are way too small, and pulling them through rough terrain would be much more easy than pushing, even for a whole horde of strong Uruks! (the distance from Isengard to Helm's Deep being about 150-200 miles)


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#35 Rob38

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 08:04 AM

the distance from Isengard to Helm's Deep being about 150-200 miles

How long did it take for the army of Isengard to reach Helm's Deep?

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#36 CIL

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 08:06 AM

Well, the Uruks were almost capable of outrunning the 3 hunters, so I'd estimate 2.5-4 days

Edited by CIL, 24 March 2009 - 08:07 AM.

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#37 Námo

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 12:36 PM

the distance from Isengard to Helm's Deep being about 150-200 miles

How long did it take for the army of Isengard to reach Helm's Deep?

well, a very simple question ... and then, the fate of of all the good people at Helm's Deep, desperately hoping against all odds, depends on the answer to that ... in fact, the fate of all free people in Middle-Earth at the end of 3rd age ...

the very short answer to your question: 2 days (including marching at night)
that is, provided that army dosn't meet any resistance, and can march directly from Isengard to Hornburg; 1 day from Isengard to the Fords of Isen (some 25 leagues), and 1 day from there to Helm's Deep (another 25 to 30 leagues).
[note: measurement should really be in numenorean lár (one lár = 5000 rangas, or strides of a full-grown man marching swiftly but at ease) = 4.8 km, very close to the old unit league (= 3 miles)]

the somewhat longer answer:
well, this is really a mighty issue, concerning among other things the strategies of Saruman and Gandalf (in gameplay the meta-game, the movements of the different armies in the campaign part) - Saruman did in fact dispatch several armies from Isengard in the week preceding the attack on Helm's Deep, and they DID meet resistance from the Rohirrim prior to that attack!
IMO the actions in this long week, from feb. 25th to mar. 3th, 3019 3rd age (february has 30 days!), are the ones most crucial for the outcome of the War of the Ring. In the words of the old man himself:

At the first battle [of the Fords of Isen; note by Námo] all his fiercest warriors were engaged in reckless assaults upon Théodred and his quard, disregarding other events of the battle, which might otherwise have resulted in a much more damaging defeat for the Rohirrim. When Théodred was at last slain Saruman's commander (no doubt under orders) seemed satisfied for the time being, and Saruman made the mistake, fatal as it proved, of not immediately throwing more forces and proceeding at once to a massive invasion of Westfold; though the valour of Grimbold and Elfhelm contributed to his delay. If the invasion of Westfold had begun five days earlier, there can be little doubt that the reinforcements from Edoras would never have come near Helm's Deep, but would have been surrounded and overwhelmed in the open plain; if indeed Edoras had not itself been attacked and captured before the arrival of Gandalf. *)
It has been said that the valour of Grimbold and Elfhelm contributed to Sarumans delay, which proved disastrous for him. The above account perhaps underestimates its importance.

*) note by Christopher Tolkien: The Ents are here left out of account, as they were by all but Gandalf. But unless Gandalf could have brought about the rising of the Ents several days earlier (as from the narrative was plainly not possible), it would not have saved Rohan. The Ents might have destroyed Isengard, and even captured Saruman (if after victory he had not himself followed his army). The Ents and Huorns, with the aid of such Riders of the East-mark as had not yet been engaged, might have destroyed the forces of Saruman in Rohan, but the Mark would have been in ruin, and leaderless. Even if the Red Arrow had found any one with authority to receive it, the call from Gondor would not have been heeded - or at most a few companies of weary men would have reached Minas Tirith, too late except to perish with it.

the very long answer: you might get it later, but I think it belongs to another topic than this one ... :wink_new:


Edited by Námo, 25 March 2009 - 05:58 PM.

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#38 Námo

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 08:00 PM

Well, the Uruks were almost capable of outrunning the 3 hunters, so I'd estimate 2.5-4 days

just for the record:

The Uruk-hai of Ugluk covered a distance of about 90 leagues in 3 nights and days (the distance in a straight line from Amon Hen to Fangorn Forest being about 80 leagues) making an average speed of 30 leagues per day.

The 3 hunters covered a distance of forty leagues and five, according to Éomer (at their meeting shortly after sunrise at the 4th day of the hunt) - but then they had to rest at night, of fear of missing some sign (like the brooch); this happens at the of february, where the night is longer than the day. Average speed thus only half of the uruk's - I guess that Gimli did slow their pace!

@Rob: sorry for hijacking your topic ... :huh: :wink_new: :blink: :p

Edited by Námo, 25 March 2009 - 08:02 PM.

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#39 Rob38

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 07:34 AM

Interesting. :umad: The movies made it appear that they marched to Helm's Deep in one day but I knew that could not be possible. Of course, that also brings the issue of how the Elves in the movie reached Helm's Deep before Saruman's army. :p

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#40 drogoth232

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 07:18 PM

They had lemblas? :p Also that they if I am not mistaken carrying lighter things (alot of light things) and that they were sure footed so they could travel pretty fast.
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