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What you hate about EA's version of Helms Deep


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#41 Námo

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 09:52 AM

... the issue of how the Elves in the movie reached Helm's Deep before Saruman's army. :p

ah, the elves coming to reinforce the defense of Helm's Deep ... just forgot the elves, being concerned only with the books, not the movie ... (well, I should have foreseen that, and kept my mouth shut!) :evgr:

... complicated issue, because the storyline must not be in conflict with the books, so there are some conditions and movements to be sorted out (well, it is done - it just takes some time to write it all, and right now I'm just as much in need of time as Gandalf was, meeting the 3 hunters in Fangorn Forest)

conclusion (without details, arguments or timetable): DON'T LOOSE HOPE! ;)

The elven reinforcement from Lothlorien WILL come to Helm's Deep, but only JUST before the dike are attacked by Sarumans vanguard ... (I guess that is also how it really SHOULD be) ... the elves have to march fast for five days and nights (barely resting at night) and they have to equal the speed of Ugluk's Uruk-hai, which IMO is quite possible. :)

... details later ...


Edited by Námo, 27 March 2009 - 09:53 AM.

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#42 {IRS}Athos

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 11:54 AM

I agree; don't even try to loreitize those darn elves... it'll only end in heartache. :evgr:
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#43 drogoth232

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 12:06 PM

I hear you last time I tried that I... I shouldnt say anything.
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#44 Námo

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 12:38 PM

I agree; don't even try to loreitize those darn elves... it'll only end in heartache. :evgr:

You agree? and then continue saying 'don't even try to loreitize those (...) elves' ... to me that sounds like contradictions, but I guess I misread you - could you please be a little more specific on that. :)


Edited by Námo, 27 March 2009 - 12:38 PM.

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#45 Bart

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 12:49 PM

I'm sure you've already fixed it, but I don't like that you can walk from the deeping wall to the hornburg. Aside from not being there in the movie, that ramp is ugly and impossible to defend.
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#46 drogoth232

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 01:40 PM

Can Legolas jump on a shield and go down stairs shooting uruks? :evgr:
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#47 Rob38

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 08:41 PM

I'm sure you've already fixed it, but I don't like that you can walk from the deeping wall to the hornburg. Aside from not being there in the movie, that ramp is ugly and impossible to defend.

Yep, that has been fixed. The enemy can no longer access the Hornburg walls from the Deeping walls. :evgr:

Can Legolas jump on a shield and go down stairs shooting uruks? :)

Oh my! I do not think that will be in the mod... too much work for such a little scene. :p

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#48 drogoth232

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 01:51 AM

Oh man! Hey, but that was memorable.
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#49 CIL

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 06:04 AM

I don't like that you can walk from the deeping wall to the hornburg. Aside from not being there in the movie

It was there in the movie. The OFFICIAL model of Helm's Deep has it. There were 2 ways to the Hornburg, although the one on the wall should be a postern gate, as I believe Rob has already made it. The other was a ramp in the back which was gated at the top.
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#50 Námo

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 07:33 PM

some short comments on the architecture of the Hornburg (Helm's Deep)

on the vertical scale:

comparing these two pics:

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it is clear that there are a very significant difference in the vertical scale - IMO Rob's model is much better than the one from New Line (movie version) for two reasons:

  • Gameplay would suffer from walls twice as high in scale (viewing/selecting units behind the walls etc.) unless the floor between the outer and inner wall was raised significantly, but that I guess would give problems in the area of the gate.
  • Rob's model is much closer (in vertical scale) to the original concept art by J.R.R.Tolkien, shown below :crazed:
J.R.R.Tolkien's vision of Hornburg:

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bd


note on the *tower* (the high sculpture with some pipes running down the sides): from an architect's point of view it is rather ugly (sorry, New Line) - it don't seem very useful as defense structure, and the sound of that horn? Guess it will not work, being made in stone (just a guess, a town planner/eco-architect is not exactly an expert on acoustics) :shiftee:

I think a proper rear gate/ramp would be much better in the area now occupied by that tower. That might also solve the problem of the outer and inner walls converging in a very sharp angle, wasting a lot of space.

bd


some other original concept art - J.R.R.Tolkien's vision of Helm's Deep:

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the reason for showing this:

The biggest flaw in EA's map called Helm's Deep
is the complete absence of HELM'S DEEP itself.

because:

HELM'S DEEP is in fact the long narrow gorge from the mouth of Aglarond (the caves) to the Hornrock. The point where the stream passed from the Deep was called HELM'S GATE, fortified by the Deeping Wall and the Hornburg. This entire refuge is often called Helm's Deep, but then the ravine and the caves must be included as well.

I think it would give some extra options in the gameplay, if the beginning of the ravine were somehow included in the map! :blink:


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#51 Rob38

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 03:14 AM

Yes my Hornburg walls are not as tall and the Hornburg section is much wider than in the movies. This is entirely for gameplay mechanics as you mentioned Namo. If I made the walls too tall and the Hornburg wall too narrow, issues such as archer range and pathfinding would develop. And yes, Tolkien's version is an extra bonus when compared to mine. :blink:

For the Tower, I never did understand what the pipes were for. In the movie, it looked like steam were coming out of them. I would like to keep the Tower, but I will be modifying it to make it taller. I also will be adding the Horn at the top of the structure. :crazed:

What do you consider the beginning of the Ravine to be? I plan on making the stream pass through the Glittering Caves and go through a hole in the mountain. Do not know if this is what you are looking for. :shiftee:

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#52 Elvenlord

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 10:09 PM

I'm pretty sure the pipes were part of the giant horn Gimli blew as Theoden and company were charging.

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#53 Bereneth Túrien

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 12:50 AM

Will you be able to actually ENTER the keep as a last defense? That would be a nice addition.

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#54 Rob38

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 08:52 PM

Will you be able to actually ENTER the keep as a last defense? That would be a nice addition.

Yes, working on that part right now actually. :unsure:

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#55 Námo

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 11:29 AM


very nice, Rob ;) ... well, then I'll bet, that you also are working on this: giving the structure an upgrade, enabling a special ability of sounding Helm's horn when garrisoned (someone has to blow that horn) and stunning the enemy as long as the echos are rolling from one side of the Deep to the other (.. and back again, .. ;) .. and back again, .. :wub: .. and back again .. ;) ..) giving the good people at Helm's Deep a short respite to reorganize their defense. ;)

and btw, Elvenlord are right concerning those pipes, they are the outer part of the horn, but I'll stand on my statement: that New Line did a bad job on those - IMO the tower looks like an old style factory chimney (like 'Arts and crafts' or 'Art Nouveau' architecture) :umad:

EDIT:
the horn of Helm Hammerhand, according to the books:

... Helm had a great horn, and soon it was marked that before he sallied forth he would blow a blast upon it that echoed in the Deep; and then so great a fear fell on his enemies that instead of gathering to take him or kill himthey fled away down the Coomb.
One night men heard the horn blowing, but Helm did nor return ... men said that the horn was still heard at times in the Deep and the wraith of Helm would walk among the foes of Rohan and kill men with fear.

So, the blast of the horn might even be able to summon the wraith of Helm Hammerhand?! I don't think I would like to meet him in that condition :omg:


Edited by Námo, 02 April 2009 - 09:06 PM.

... elen síla lúmenn´ ómentielvo ...
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#56 Rob38

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 11:44 PM

So, the blast of the horn might even be able to summon the wraith of Helm Hammerhand?! I don't think I would like to meet him in that condition ;)

Shhhh... don't reveal my secrets. :p :grin:

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#57 Námo

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 08:21 AM


.. .. :grin:


... sorry, Rob ;)

... (well, I should have foreseen that, and kept my mouth shut!) ;)

I guess you have many more secrets, that should not be revealed ;) ... maybe you could just post a list of them in hidden text :p ... so we know which issues should not be touched and revealed by accident :p


Edited by Námo, 03 April 2009 - 08:24 AM.

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#58 Rob38

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:39 AM

No worries. :tongevil: I'll probably release it soon anyways. :thumbsupsmiley:

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#59 Masterbadeend

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 06:37 PM

I don't know if you still want to work on your mod or whatever ;) , but I have a few questions:
Are the Uruks able to walk up the bridge to the gate in a shield wall formation like in the movie and that the units fall of the bridge when dead? :p
Do you redo the ballista's so they will shoot their munition on the highest wall with less damage but with ladders?
Is Aragorn able to tos a dwarf? (found in the weapon.ini file if I'm right :p )
That's it for now :p , and I'm sorry if you already explained something. ;)

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#60 Rob38

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 02:11 AM

I don't know if you still want to work on your mod or whatever :p , but I have a few questions:
Are the Uruks able to walk up the bridge to the gate in a shield wall formation like in the movie and that the units fall of the bridge when dead? :p
Do you redo the ballista's so they will shoot their munition on the highest wall with less damage but with ladders?
Is Aragorn able to tos a dwarf? (found in the weapon.ini file if I'm right ;) )
That's it for now ;) , and I'm sorry if you already explained something. ;)


Well, there will a special type of uruks called uruk shieldman. They have large shields like in the movie and provide defense to all siege machines. As for falling off the bridge, I do not know if it is possible. It will be something that I will look into.

For the ballistas and ladders, there will be special ballistas that shoot hooks with ropes onto the Hornburg walls. Large ladders are then pulled up like in the movies.

I do not think I'm going to give Aragorn the dwarf toss ability because it is glitchy and requires new animations. Also, just having Gimli use the leap attack will give a similar effect. It really was a very small part of the battle and I rather focus on something more significant.

Thanks for the interest. :p

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