128 replies to this topic

[Rafv Nin IV]

@ Hasfusel: If it makes you feel better, you can always go into your RJ-ROTWK files and change their names on your own game. Although I don't know if that would prevent you from playing as/against Mordor in online games.

[Puppeteer]

I think it would. But then he can always revert them back afterwards.

[SixSevenSix]

I'd rather have my names... And I have personal histories for them, too... :(
I'm sure you'd soon get used to the better ones...

But are they Canon? Are they of the Toliken Universe? The two Definite named ones by Toliken are The Witch King and Khamûl the "Black Easterling" or "Shadow of the East".
Don't force your ideas on others, I doubt seriously that most of us want them, the current names are fitting of the Nazgûl. If you want to have your names in the mod, do as they said earlier, edit your files and change their names.

[The Watcher in the Water]

Enough with names now,please!!!!!! I say let rob read all the posts on this topic and then he can have the final say on it and we'll all just forget about it.

[Puppeteer]

I concur The Watcher, this incessant whining is giving me a serious virtual headache Not to mention hating the cause more and more...

Edited by Puppeteer, 18 January 2009 - 09:57 PM.

[Hasfusel]

(whining? I suggested, and others whined. I don't care in the end)

Could someone who knows write a complete list of all the new features in the next release?
I was wondering what else will be included other than the new maps and elven features. If there are any other changes.
For example, are the Blue Wizards finished yet? Will the Noédhel work? Will the Inns work?

[Devon]

The blue wizards will be done, and noledhel at this point will just shoot their element attacks, as the guest above me mentioned.

There's too much changed stuff for me to remember Ask what you want to know, and I'll try to answer.

[mike_]

There will be a full list of changes available to view, yes.

[rjorrin28]

looks fantastic Good Work
are there any changes for mordor in 1.06, most importantly are the nazgul still OP?

[Xingdao Fan]

After some weeks of inactivity, I'm glad to see you're back, rob.

Finally an update! May I remind you how I nearly died of shivering when I saw those map screenshots? They're amazing! Congratulations, yet again, for all the mappers.

My critique is not so positive regarding the Elves. I really don't like the way they're structured. You wrote that "each elvish force is suited to a particular style of battle", yet all the elvish sub-factions have melee, ranged, spearmen, cavalry, a level 2 ranged (melee for Rivendell) and an elite squad. They are similar in too many ways.
I don't think Lothlórien nor Mirkwood have enough material to stand alone. But let's just focus on the critique rather than the suggestion, for now.

The very first thing I dislike about the Elves are the number of units per battalion. Tolkien wrote they were few, yet in game the battalions are too large.
Now, for the units themselves. Each sub-faction should, in my opinion, have weaknesses.

• Lothlórien: Lothlórien did not have spearmen or cavalry. I don't think I like the Marchwardens either, but whatever. At least they make sense.
• Rivendell: The word is clear: Rivendell. I am, however, a little sad to see that the Lindon Horse Archers are gone. This leads me back to what I said earlier about Lórien and Mirkwood. The unit I don't like to see here is, with no doubt, the Rivendell Archers. Infantry could be Rivendell's weakness.
• Mirkwood: I can accept the Swordsmen, but everything else besides the Mirkwood Archers and the Silvan Warriors receive a negative grade from me.

Now, the suggestions:
The majority of the battalions have six units. I'd have a maximum of five (preferably four) per basic unit and cavalry battalions, and three units for level 2 hordes and elite/lvl3. Expensive, yet worth it units.

I'd mix Lothlórien and Mirkwood, and add back the Mithlond Sentries and the Lindon Horse Archers to Rivendell. I don't know exactly how would it turn out, but I guess the eastern Elves would lack on cavalry, and Rivendell would lack on ranged units.


I believe RJ-RotWK should be focusing less on model importation - it's just filling the game with unnecessary stuff. The mod is doing the same error as EA: it is beginning to lack diversification and realism. The War of the Ring and maps fill the holes EA left to fill, but the way the factions are being structured is terrible, and will eventually ruin the gameplay.

EDIT: Oh, and Elves are screwed in War of the Ring (Real Time Strategy does not let workers build anything). I forgot to congratulate whoever made the models and icons too, anyway. Even though I see them as non-fitting, they are still good.

Edited by Xingdao Fan, 19 January 2009 - 05:48 PM.

[mike_]

You're really contradicting yourself - saying there isn't enough diversity but wanting to combine Lothlorien and Mirkwood, for example.

Personally, I feel the spear should be the principle melee weapon of both Mirkwood and Lothlorien - not as an anti-cavalry, mind () but as the primary melee weapon. Regardless, Mirkwood should (and is) based around stealth and archery, Rivendell is the closest to 'traditional' fighting - elite infantry - and Lorien fills in a 'happy medium'.

I do agree with you that some units are not needed - mounted troops in Lorien and Mirkwood - but for the sake of gameplay, each subfaction needs to be able to stand on it's own - to an extent. Unfortunate.

[Xingdao Fan]

You're really contradicting yourself - saying there isn't enough diversity but wanting to combine Lothlorien and Mirkwood, for example.

I said there should be diversity with realism. We could divide Gondor into Dol Amroth, Lamedon, Lossernach, and so on. Would it result in an overdose of unnecessary unrealism and repeated unit types? Yes, it would.

Personally, I feel the spear should be the principle melee weapon of both Mirkwood and Lothlorien - not as an anti-cavalry, mind () but as the primary melee weapon. Regardless, Mirkwood should (and is) based around stealth and archery, Rivendell is the closest to 'traditional' fighting - elite infantry - and Lorien fills in a 'happy medium'.

The Elven Warriors we saw in the movie possess swords, not spears. Even though, I could live with spearmen that do not deal much damage to infantry, but do not take much damage from them either.

I do agree with you that some units are not needed - mounted troops in Lorien and Mirkwood - but for the sake of gameplay, each subfaction needs to be able to stand on it's own - to an extent. Unfortunate.

With some realism, it isn't needed. For example, Rivendell Lancers carry spears, so I thought: "why not make them anti-cavalry cavalry?", but then again, Rivendell spearmen don't look bad, and if we don't have them, we have Mithlond Sentries.

Edited by Xingdao Fan, 19 January 2009 - 06:07 PM.

[Shikari]

It's not really that there are many unnecessary units, its that their are many possible units which the player could get for elves. Sure, if you look at the faction as a whole there are 25+ units, but you don't have access to all of them at the same time so its no different to any other faction.

Which units specifically would you deem unnecessary? Rivendell archers I would claim are necessary for gameplay, but also they're good to have for defending walls on fortress maps which would put rivendell at a disadvantage if they didn't have them. They're also pretty weak, compared to the lorien and Mirkwood archers they're poor.

The elvish faction is split like this to give the player choice, I'd say don't look at it as a whole, look at it as three similar factions which we've added which all have their own strengths and weaknesses. These will also be more greatly diversified as we add to the faction more (doesn't mean more units, just improvements and changes which are necessary to define them)

Combining Mirkwood and Lothlorien doesn't seem like a sensible idea to me from a lore point of view, geographically they are miles apart and they're not so similar in their ways either.

Lastly, the point of this faction is to get into the normal game all the units which we require for the campaign in a way which doesn't feel like we've simply crammed loads of units into the elvish faction. The fact that you've picked up on this probably means (at least from your point of view) that it feels like there are too many units crammed in, but my opinion is that there are no more than other factions and for gameplay's sake we shouldn't get rid of any. They also all look really great with high quality skins by EHL, Eldarion and myself and fit the style of the factions really well.

Let us know your suggestions, your critique has been taken note of

[robnkarla]

And I know I've said it before, but I will say it again. Just because those are the units that are in 1.06 does not mean that they will stay in the each sub-faction. To design/create all the units that we want to have in the campaign and use for those purposes it is easier to use a template. As Shikari stated, yeah they have archers but for gameplay only purposes. If you use them you will immediately know they don't hold a candle to other basic archers.

Now, the approach we've taken is the safest in gameplay balancing, but it was not my intention to always have all of the units available to the core faction. I wouldn't be surprised to see horses taken out of Mirkwood or Lorien, or archers from Rivendell to be replaced by a specialty unit that is only available if you use that factions as your base. The way the faction is set up in 1.06 is only a base, similar to how EA's Gondor was the basis for RJ's Gondor. RJ has always been heading in the direction of the versitality of factions and away from cookie-cutter. So I wouldn't worry about it. There is only so much that we can do in 1.06.

Robert J.

[Floris]

I love the Elves!!!
You know, they taste great when cooked on a camp fire



I am going to stop using other colours! I hate them!

[shadowfoxt]

[Uruk King]

The elves are now just as I like them, fantasitc

[{IRS}Athos]

I think that it would make sense for the Mirkwood elves to use spears, as in the BOOKS that was their main melee weapon.

[shadowfoxt]

Yes spears would make sence instead of knife fighters . i know it takes a long time to make but knife fighting should be unique to loeglas...just my thoughts