42 replies to this topic

[khamulrulz]

I personally am opposed to splitting rhun and harad, and knowing the intense work it takes to create a new faction, i think rohan should be the only other faction created, so it would be 4 factions against 4.

of course, this poll has nothing to do with there actually being a split of the evil men faction - that is all down to nazgul and the rest of the s.e.e. team. i just wanted to see if people actually wanted harad separate from rhun

the thing is, easterlings and haradrim are usually mentioned together, were allied together, and in the 4.8 suggestion thread, i had a hard enough time coming up with heroes and powers for one evil men faction, let alone two. units are easy to come up with, as harad has haradrim, mahud, and corsairs, and rhun has easterlings and khand. the line is also blurred somewhat between what is rhunnic and what is haradrim. (in the films, the easterlings had banners with a black serpent on red, which is the banner of harad) also, the current evil men faction already looks really cool.

Edited by khamulrulz, 29 October 2009 - 10:07 PM.

[Námo]

The naming of heroes from Rhún/Harad is NOT a problem. This will be addressed later, and all heroes will get 'names' according to Tolkien lore.

... and btw, last time I answered to one of your posts, I explained why Khand is part of Harad and not Rhún, and that those are distinctly different people. Please don't expect me to take your post serious, if you don't even read my reply.

[khamulrulz]

i'm not trying to disrespect you or undermine your knowledge as lore master in any way, and i'm sorry if that is what came across. i understand that in a previous post you said that in the annals of gondor khand is considered part of harad, but i also read somewhere that they were similar to the wainriders out of rhun, so that's why i put them in the rhun part. i don't see the evil men faction splitting into harad and rhun anyway - i like the rhun/harad faction as it is.

Edited by khamulrulz, 31 October 2009 - 09:26 AM.

[Námo]

That's OK, Khamul. I didn't read your post as disrespectful, I just want you to read my posts more carefully; there just might be some subtle hints, that will be expanded on later (my real life being too damned busy at the moment).

As for Harad ('[the] South' in Sindarin, denoting an area or region), there are a lot of intricate dualities and interrelations between the haradric and gondorian populations, in relation to politics (rulership), culture and language - the main key to decode this lore is the role of the Black Númenoreans; if Rhûn/Harad is split, the Harad faction could be a quite interesting and unique one!

The peoples of Rhûn ('[the] East') are in Sauron's geopolitical strategies in the Third Age primarily used for conquest of Rhovanion in the second millennium; Despite the Easterlings frequent wars with Gondor, Sauron's main objective in this period was the control of the northern part of Middle-earth and the destruction of Arnor. In terms of lore, the history of Rhûn is much closer connected to Dol Guldur than to Mordor; at the time of the War of the Ring the army of Easterlings attacking Dale and Erebor were most likely under command of the Nazgûl in charge of Dol Guldur ... the one known as 'the Shadow of the East' or 'the Black Easterling' ...

Expect some substantial lore on this ... later. Please have patience.

[Nazgûl]

1) Due to the enormous work load of creating new factions (for me at least) it's highly unlikely that I/we would ever get this far...
2) A much more needed split is the splitting of Rohan from Gondor.

Initally when I was working on SEE myself, I just wanted Rohan as a mini faction of Gondor. That quickly grew into like 40% of the entire faction, and today, we have enough assets to easily fill a Rohan faction. There are a few reasons that I'd like to see Rohan and Gondor split, like in BFME1, and that's far more important than splitting Rhûn faction. (The dominant faction (in terms of architecture) decides the faction name).

3) So, if we manage to reach Beta 4.8 release with a separated Rohan, we could consider doing the same with Harad for Beta 4.9, as indeed we'd have enough units and structures to fill that faction too, and Rhûn faction (with Harad) is going to be huge indeed. Just like Gondor is today...

Side note: Splitting further than THIS, like splitting Rivendell from Lothlórien is not going to happen though. We could go on forever splitting elves into Lothlórien, Rivendell and Mirkwood, just like dwarves could be split, and goblins, and even Mordor into Dol Guldur, Cirith Ungol, Morannon, Morgul... Yeah we could have like 15-20 factions I'm sure =P The line has to be drawn somewhere, and for me it goes with Rohan/Gondor and possibly Harad/Rhun. Dwarves and Elves had a pretty low impact on screen time in the movies so they'll have to share the space EA gave them, and the fascination of the south and east regions that made me do this 7th faction are primarily cause of all the "civilian" assets in game, as well as my personal interest in those far away cultures =)

So, if the modding gods are kind to us, maybe the day will come in a distant future

[RalphDamiani]

I'd say no, as there is not enough background material to ensure interesting faction play. Part of the fun is the familiarity we share with the characters and locations we know, and there is so little written about Rhun and Harad, and almost no recognizable names to play with.

If you're going to design another faction, I suggest splitting the elves, something I already saw mentioned before. There are several ways you could split the elves, from Sindar and Silvan to Lothlorien and Rivendell, from Mirkwood and Lothlorien to Mithlond and Rivendell. And you'd still end up with several unused and recognizable hero characters if needed, such as Gildor Inglorion, Cirdan, Galdor, Erestor and so forth.

Exploring Rhun and Harad would be far more interesting with a single player campaign along with a storyline. And even then, you risk ending up with something as bland as the Rise of the Witch King expansion.

With that said, the new Harad units look fantastic and part of the job is already done. However, I wouldn't venture it any further myself.

Edited by RalphDamiani, 01 November 2009 - 01:36 AM.

[khamulrulz]

i'm fine with ending it at rohan splitting with gondor.
that way, you have 8 complete factions that we have sufficient info on for heroes, powers, etc
it will also be 4 v 4

[Námo]

... The line has to be drawn somewhere, and for me it goes with Rohan/Gondor and possibly Harad/Rhun. ...

Agree ... splitting Rohan from Gondor, and leaving Rhún/Harad as one faction would still make that a very interesting and unique one. KIS (keep it simple) has always been a good design-principle.

[klementinos]

no spliting here,no spliting gondor/rohan no spliting elves.

[Sûlherokhh]

This is a request, right?

[klementinos]

just a wish,if spliting everything,every race have to balanced to other,i love to have all units in one faction.

[Emperor of the East]

Why would anyone split this faction? Its good the way it is.

And the name "Suladan" is not from either of PJ or Tolkien, its from Games-Workshop

(back on topic) Besides, the factions within Rhun/Harad have reason to stay together in this mod. For example, Rhun needs Harad's archers

----------------
in all respect for simple theories,
rgbs

[Nazgûl]

What ppl might not know is that I love GW and that's my third source of reference for this mod

1) Movies
2) Books/lore
3) GW

I like the name Sûladan and his prominent role as a distant war lord known all over the south and east, and it fits the serpent influence in Rhun architecture. I imagine it kind of like how Greece influenced the Roman empire's arcitecture =) So even if Rhûn would be a stronger faction in terms of units, Harad would be a faster faction and hold a more powerful hero like this one. Rhûn aparently had archers too though, so as far as units and structures go, we coould defenitely split hem up and archers would be added for Rhun too. It's amore a question of priorities, as we have so much to do before this would even be considered. Also splitting Rohan from Gondor would be much higher on the prio list. But I could see them split up eventually indeed. However, they won't for this beta, and I like them together as well =)

[RalphDamiani]

Indeed, and in my humble opinion, Games Workshop does a fine job elaborating on the obscure sections of the lore, with an eventual slip, occasionally.

[yams in a can]

I personally would make Khand give inn units, or be summons for the Evil Men faction, as they have only been allied with Rhun and Harad. Corsairs would be inn/summon units for just the Haradrim. Rhun was much more powerful than Harad, in my personal opinion. Their invasions have just seemed more successful ( one nearly destroying Gondor, killing both the king and his heir, and Gondor needing help from the ancestors of the Rohirrim.) and that must mean they are very powerful, and could be a faction of their own. The problem is heroes, which would nearly all need to be made up, if wanted to match the (upcoming) hero roster of the other factions.

I am personally fine with either choice, as is would be easier to not split up the factions. For a Harad hero, you could use the Harad Chieftain the Theodon killed at the Pelonor fields. The chieftain was the leader of the cavalry, and would be a good leader of the cavalry for Harad.

Namo, when you are referring to the shadow of the east, I think you are referring to Khamul... right? I hope you will correct my lore mistakes if you can, because I know a good much, it's just a bit "tainted".

Edited by yams in a can, 05 November 2009 - 02:08 AM.

[Sûlherokhh]

Moved off-topic discussion here.

[Námo]

... Namo, when you are referring to the shadow of the east, I think you are referring to Khamul... right? ...

Correct cf.:

... end of June 3018 ...

Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamûl the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant, with one other as messenger.

[and in a note to this]
... in a rejected version of the present passage there was only one Nazgûl in Dol Guldur (not named Khamûl, but referred to as 'the Second Chief (the Black Easterling)') ...
[...]
Of Khamûl it is said here that he was the most ready of all the Nazgûl, after the Black Captain himself, to percieve the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose powers was most confused and diminished by daylight.

[isledebananas]

From what I have read about the difficulty in splitting factions it seems that splitting up Rhun and Harad would be wasteful. I think having all sorts of various units might be a unique thing to this faction. It would make for a faction that can have all sorts of varying strategies unlike the others which have only a few strategic strengths. Rhun/Harad's defining quality is that while they may not excel greatly in any area they aren't really lacking either.

There seem to be units that seem somewhat similar. However, you could make slight tweaks to make each one unique. This would help further emphasize this factions ability to have varying playing styles as opposed to others which have more set plans of attack. This would be the kind of faction that allows people to be more experimenting with the strategy they want as they seem to have a unit for whatever plan of attack they want.

Just as an aside thing I noticed. The faction units list doesn't have the regular mountable mumaks listed.

[Nazgûl]

Looki looki...

[MirkwoodArcher]

Looki looki...

I guess that fufills the purpose of this topic.