42 replies to this topic

[khamulrulz]

Now, since Nazgul has set his sights on splitting rhun and harad, i am trying to come up with units, HEROES, and POWERS for the two SEPARATE factions, in the fashion of my 4.8 suggestion thread. this will also include fortress upgrades and expansions. new heroes/units have * next to them. visually, i like the harad serpent guard and rhun golden horde units in third age: total war, because they look really good there, so if these ideas get implemented that is the visual basis that i have.

RHUN

Units: (13)

Spam: Slaves * [Windmill]
Basic Infantry: Rhun Swordsmen [Warrior Hall]
Basic Pikemen: Easterling Pikemen [Warrior Hall]
Basic Ranged: Khand Archers * [Khand Palace]
Basic Cavalry: Kataphrakts [Stables]
Elite Infantry: Variag Axemen * [Lvl 2 Khand Palace]
Elite Ranged: Golden Horde Archers * [Lvl 2 Warrior Hall]
Elite Cavalry: Khand Horsemen * (bow/axe toggle) [Lvl 2 Khand Palace]
Elite Cavalry: Wainriders [Lvl 2 Stables]
Anti-Hero Pikemen: Soldiers of Rhun (spearmen with shields) [Lvl 3 Warrior Hall] Req. HA, FB; Limited to 3 battalions
Anti-Hero Infantry: Golden Horde Warriors * (visibly heavy armor, have axes and maces) [Lvl 3 Warrior Hall] Req. HA, FB; Limited to 2 battalions
Siege: Battering Ram * [Forge]
Siege: Catapult [Lvl 2 Forge]

Heroes: (7+1)

Borlach* - Recruit the deceptive emissary of Lorgan (has some mouth of sauron and wormtongue powers)
Gizik* - Recruit the barbarian leader of northern Rhun (leader of bearded grim easterlings with axes)
Oldur* - Recruit the Variag king of Khand (can mount chariot)
Bori* - Recruit the zealous commander of the Golden Horde (thick gold armor, has battle rage, causes fear, trains allies)
Lorgan - Recruit the most dominant of the Rhunnic king
Yaban* - Recruit this eager sorcerer of Alatar's dragon-cult (powers are fireball, drogoth's dragon strike, train allies)
Alatar* - Recruit the first of the two Blue Istari chosen by Orome (also ring hero) - has wizard blast, bolt lightning, leadership, convert enemy (all CaH powers) as well as rotwk sorcerer power well of souls
Drogoth (Req Dragon's Nest)

Powers: (Themes: Corruption, Dragons)

5-Corruption (same as blight, slows down enemy production building)
5-Healing Arts (heal) - eastern civilizations had very good traditional medicines
5-Stirred Hatred (rallying call, emphasis on damage)
-----
11-Summon Rhunnic Tribesmen (small horde of "grim bearded Easterlings with axes)
10-Coerce (smaller radius than isengard and mordor)
10-Aid from Mordor (tribute carts from bfme1 arrive off map, resources double)
12-Sorcerers of Alatar (rotwk sorcerers, with weaker powers)
-----
15-Awaken Wyrm (in the hobbit it said there were "were-worms" in the eastern desert)
17-Host of Harad
15-Summon Khand Allies
-----
25-Fire Drake Brood (three of them)
30-Dragon Strike (original, not the reskinned smaug - he is still in moria)

Fortress upgrades: banners, barren steppes, siege kegs, fire munitions, trench moat (just dug into ground), stone foundation, dragon's nest

Fortress expansions: arrow tower, catapult, altar of sacrifice, wall hub

HARAD

Units: (13)

Spam: Slaves * [Mill]
Basic Infantry: Southron Swordsmen [Barracks]
Basic Pikemen/Ranged: Haradrim Lancers (pike/javelin toggle) [Archery Range]
Basic Cavalry: Haradrim Raiders * [Steed Pen]
Basic Infantry/Siege: Corsairs of Umbar [Tavern]
Elite Cavalry: Mahud Camel Riders * (blowgun/spear toggle) [Lvl 2 Steed Pen]
Elite Infantry: Mahud Bludgeoners [Lvl 2 Barracks]
Elite Archers: Southron Archers [Lvl 2 Archery Range]
Elite Infantry: Haradrim Hasharii [Lvl 2 Barracks]
Anti-Hero Infantry/Ranged: Serpent Guard * (bow/sword toggle) [Lvl 3 Barracks] Req. HA, FB, FA; Limited to 3 battalions
Anti-Hero Cavalry: Serpent Knights * (bow/sword toggle) [Lvl 3 Steed Pen] Req. HA, FB, FA; Limited to 2 battalions
Siege: Corsair Ballista [Lvl 2 Tavern]
Siege: Mumak [Mumakil Pen]

Heroes: (7+1)

Captain Jackson - Recruit the pirate-lord of Umbar
Ubayy* - Recruit this cunning assassin from Harad (can climb walls, disguise, assassin attack, other cah powers)
Muthanna - Recruit this champion of the Mahud from Far Harad (has battle rage, fear resistance, summon mahud guys)
Utbah* - Recruit this archer of the nomadic desert tribes (wears desert clothing, has cripple shot, barbed arrow, train archers, thranduil power that boosts damage)
Lubayd* - Recruit Suladan's champion of the Serpent Guard (can mount, cripple strike, train allies, blade master)
Suladan* - Recruit the Serpent Warlord of Harad (has mount, leadership, summon guard, leadership)
Pallando* - Recruit the Blue Wizard who journeyed south (powers include CaH powers like blink, teleport units, and rotwk sorcerer powers fell strength, corpse rain) - also ring hero
Royal Mumak (Req. Mumak Monument)

Powers: (Themes: Desert)

5-Vulture flight
5-Desert Wind (bunches units together, they lose their vision)
5-Call to War (rallying call, emphasis on damage)
-----
12-Summon Umbar allies (either corsairs on land, or arrow ships on water)
10-Nomad Hardiness (selected allies take damage slower)
10-Bountiful Oasis (industry)
10-Quicksand Bog (slows selected enemies down)
-----
17-Host of Rhun
17-Sinkhole
15-Heatwave (small sunflare)
-----
30-Mumak Rampage (4 or 5 enter the map and just run wild)
28-Sandstorm

Fortress Upgrades: vultures, scorched desert ground, burning sand (like boiling oil), fire arrows, barbed trench, reinforced wood (added to canvas, bone, and bamboo walls and fortress), mumak monument

Fortress Expansions: Arrow tower, ballista, scorpion den, dormitory

Edited by khamulrulz, 21 November 2009 - 12:23 AM.

[Emperor of the East]

@khamulrulz: Perfect. Simply Perfect.

@Nazgul: Look at Khamulrulz's magnificent tech tree. I can't even come up with a better idea!

[khamulrulz]

thanks lots of think-time went into that!

[Gfire]

Well, I have a few ideas about khamulrulz's tech tree. I think for rhun, the golden horde guys should be cut out and replaces with easterling archers (elite golden guys scrapped entirely.) Variags/khand belong to harad, so they go there. Also, keep the names consistant. You have both khand and variags, both easterlings and rhun, both Southron and haradrim . ;]

The Hasharii appear to be assassins, so I think it would be fitting for them to be the anti hero unit. The Mahud Bludgeoners are enough elite infantry.

[khamulrulz]

i put name variation in there because its a bit boring with haradrim this, haradrim that etc. the elite golden guys are based off third age total war's loke-rim, because i thought they fit with the rhun faction, and their back-story is that they are the elite warriors of a dragon-cult, so that fits with nazgul's vision.

as for variags, i feel they belong with easterlings because they rode to war in the past with wainriders, and in games workshop as well as ta:tw they are with the rhun faction. khand is tricky, because it is on the border of harad and rhun, but i think they are more similar to the easterlings. also, harad already has the mahud and corsairs as well as regular haradrim. of course, these are just suggestions, and you are welcome to disagree with them. ultimately it is up to nazgul to decide what goes into the mod.

i kept the hasharii as elite infantry because they are different from the mahud bludgeoners. while both occupy the same troop type, hasharii are stealthy assassins, while mahud bludgeoners are reckless bashers. my vision of the harad faction had serpent guards and mounted serpent guards (serpent knights) as the anti-hero units, so we can agree to disagree there.

Edited by khamulrulz, 21 November 2009 - 08:21 AM.

[Gfire]

"stealthy assassin" sounds like it fits as an anti hero to me.

IIRC, Mahud was made up entirely for games, and appeared little there. I think you have a lot of Mahud units that could be replaced with Khand.

Of course we can agree to disagree. I think by giving as much information to either side of a disagreement can help Nazgul to make a decision.

[mike_]

I think you could be more original with the types of units than 'basic this' and an elite version of the same thing.

[Gfire]

Yes, I agree. I think having another unit with the same purpose that is only stronger is fairly useless. Some RTSs just let you upgrade the early-game units so they can compete with the later game units. With the BFME unit structure, there are very few later game units that aren't just buffed versions of the early units...

Like the Gondor Ranger. It should have a totally different purpose than the archer, being used for stealth and ambushing, instead of an elite archer that replaces the normal archer in the later game (Buy HA and FA and the archers should stand up to later game units like trolls.)

[khamulrulz]

well, i agree that it shouldn't be so cookie-cutter-esque with the classes, but i just gave the troop types. within each "class", the units offer unique pros and cons.

Here is Rhun's elite force:
Elite Infantry: Variag Axemen * [Lvl 2 Khand Palace]
Elite Ranged: Golden Horde Archers * [Lvl 2 Warrior Hall]
Elite Cavalry: Khand Horsemen * (bow/axe toggle) [Lvl 2 Khand Palace]
Elite Cavalry: Wainriders [Lvl 2 Stables]

I imagine that variag axemen have really strong attacks, but weak armour. golden horde archers would have very strong armor, but slow movement, khand horsemen would be much lighter and faster than kataphrakts, and wainriders are different because they are only one, and can trample better, even though they sacrifice speed.

Here is Harad's elite force:
Elite Cavalry: Mahud Camel Riders * (blowgun/spear toggle) [Lvl 2 Steed Pen]
Elite Infantry: Mahud Bludgeoners [Lvl 2 Barracks]
Elite Archers: Southron Archers [Lvl 2 Archery Range]
Elite Infantry: Haradrim Hasharii [Lvl 2 Barracks]

Camel riders are lighter than the raiders, but have versatility in their ranged/melee toggle. Mahud bludgeoners have strong attacks, but weak armor. southron archers could have weaker armor, but their barbed arrow attack is good. and the hasharii are stealthy infantry, just like mirkwood archers are stealthy archers.


i hope that this shows that while two units may be called "infantry" or "cavalry", just because they belong to the same class doesn't mean that they are different, and "basic" troop types may have either better armor or damage than an "elite" unit. the best example i can think of in this thread is rhun's cavalry. kataphrakts are very strong with armor and damage, so are a useful unit, although variag horsemen and wainriders may be better in certain areas.

Edited by khamulrulz, 22 November 2009 - 06:15 AM.

[isledebananas]

Khamulrulz you need to be more specific about the function of the unit. No unit should be obsolete and should always have a purpose. It should fill a role or complement another unit for a specific strategy someone wishes to use. For example like Gfire said with the Ithlien vs regular archers. Ithlien rangers are good at killing but are bad in a melee since they go down fast to anyone who closes the distance.

This way you can mix up strategy and only employ some units if they have a good complimentary unit there to back them up making the combo more effective.

The main Harad troops are fine swordsmen and pikemen and archers. Haradrim lancers should be basically heavy archers high attack but really slow firing rate, move speed, and range they are basically there to be in the thick of things something more adept at dispatching those heavily armored Good side units. Those lancers would be complementary as they are good at backing up the weaker front line troops since Harad much like Rohan has poor armored basic infantry. The regular archers would be more akin to the Ithlien Rangers (not their to take damage) but not as specialized(lancers would be the specialized ones). The Hashiarii seem to be some sort of assassins not something that would run around in a horde and be in a melee. They should be made into single units that have some special abilities that weaken enemy heroes maybe decreasing any damage they do or casting an ability that resets spell abilities on enemy heroes. Or they could be used to infiltrate and cause trouble in enemy bases like decreasing their level or slowing production something like that. Also there would be the raiders which would serve a harassing raiding function. The Serpent Guard you mentioned would be the elite anti-hero horde and if that whole horde mounting is ever fixed they could be that.

For the Mahud Camel riders I like the idea of them having that toggle. They should be limited in number but not elite as in they do more damage. I assume those blow darts will have some poison damage and maybe some sort of armor or attack/move speed debuff. That would make them unique and complimentary to their faction. By making them also mounted you can use them mainly for their special attack running from enemy horde to enemy horde debuffing them. Also were there camels in Middle Earth? We know they had horses, ponies, those weird beasts that carry Grond, and Oliphants. Finally the Mahud rider on the Oliphant would kind of be an upgrade I guess that would do something to make the Oliphant more useful in combat.

With Rhun it seems that Rhun itself is more akin to Gondor a faction heavily dependent on superior armor and strong infantry. However they do have the Kataphrakts and Wainriders. Khand infantry should be more like Dale is to dwarves something at the beginning or if your in a credit crunch plus their archers which should be good all through out. GW interprets them to be a Mongol like culture but Variags it seems is a type of Viking people. However, Mongols fighting wise were quite similar, yet Vikings being less dependent on cavalry. Rohan is more a mix of Viking style with Mongol cavalry awesomeness. Khand could be more like traditional vikings cheap units good at fighting with a their bow/sword toggle cavalry which is good at harassing and hit and run tactics. They could be used to constantly keep the enemy on the defensive allowing Rhun to build more specialized fighters. Rhun would have Pikemen and Swordsmen or Axemen whichever weapon is chosen which would be like the Dwarven Guardian. They should have a shield which allows some formation increasing armor at the cost of move speed. Their elite anti-hero unit should be a special Easterling soldiers with bow/scimitar toggle much like Noldor warriors.

[khamulrulz]

good ideas... most of it i agree with... i focused on having a greater emphasis for melee with the easterlings, because most of their references in the books are about men being hewed down by them, especially by axemen, which is why one of their anti-hero units uses axes. i must admit that for the easterlings and variags, i take a lot of visual reference from third age: total war. i like their khand units and golden horde (loke-rim) units as well.

i used game workshop for influence with the camels thing. since tolkien said middle-earth is based on earth, i assume that there are camels in middle-earth, in the middle-eastern region (near harad). to be more specific, here is a detailed unit list, with comparisons to units from other factions:

Rhun

Slaves - Spam/Base Defence
Rhun Swordsmen - Basic Infantry, Heavily armored with average attacks, similar to gondor soldiers.
Easterling Pikemen - Basic Pikemen, average armor with average attacks, comparable with gondor spearmen.
Khand Archers - Basic Ranged, light armor with average attacks, can move quite quickly
Kataphrakts - Basic cavalry, heavy armor with good attacks, sacrifices speed for armor. better than gondor knights.
Variag Axemen - Elite Infantry, light armor with heavy attacks, quite fast
Golden Horde Archers - Elite Ranged, heavy armor with good attacks, sacrifice speed for armor.
Khand Horsemen - Elite Cavalry, have bow/axe toggle, good speed, light armor. basically a lighter version of rohirrim.
Wainriders - Elite Cavalry, single unit, lighter than battlewagon, customizable with banner carriers and khand archers.
Soldiers of Rhun - Anti-Hero Pikemen, comparable with fountain guard, but with better armor and not as good attacks.
Golden Horde Warriors - Anti-Hero Infantry, have heavy armor and good attacks, similar to khazad guard.
Battering Ram - Melee Siege
Siege: Catapult - Ranged Siege


Harad:

Slaves - Spam/Base Defence
Southron Swordsmen - average armor, average attacks, similar to lorien warriors
Haradrim Lancers - basic pikemen with light armor, javelin throw toggle, poor range and rate of fire but good attacks
Haradrim Raiders - basic light cavalry with good speed, similar to rivendell lancers
Corsairs of Umbar - basic light infantry with light armor and average attacks, can toggle to firebombs for good siege.
Mahud Camel Riders - elite light cavalry. not as fast as raiders, but have ranged toggle.
Mahud Bludgeoners - elite light infantry. light armor, but good attacks. like a unit of toned-down berserkers.
Southron Archers - elite ranged, average armor, good attacks, but not as powerful as lancers' javelins.
Haradrim Hasharii - elite infantry, very light armor and average attacks, but stealthy.
Serpent Guard - anti-hero, comparable to noldor warriors and royal guards
Serpent Knights - anti-hero, comparable to mounted royal guards (has ranged toggle)
Corsair Ballista - ranged siege
Mumak - monster, melee siege


I hope that i didn't cause any misunderstandings with the vagueness of my tech tree. some people like it, and i hope the rest of you do as well... especially the spellbook powers.

Edited by khamulrulz, 22 November 2009 - 09:22 AM.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

Much better khamul! Looks great! Now I'm all for the Rhun/Harad split!

[Uruk King]

Looking at these ideas, I now regret my "No" choice for in the poll.

But in a word: BRILLIANT!!

Just a few suggestions though, perhaps the Golden Horde could be called Goldenscales. It sounds less uncivilised and orcish, plus redirects to Rhun's dragon theme. And perhaps the Harad camel riders could have a special ability that decreases enemy cavalry's competence in battle, becuase Historically speaking, Camel Cavalry has often proved deadly to horsemen, because the camels frighten the horses.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

Yeah, Golden Scales sounds nice!

[khamulrulz]

i used the term golden horde because that is what the russian (approximate location of rhun) part of the mongol empire was called, and because of their armor of course

[Gfire]

From what I gather, Mongols were more similar to Variags (horse archer civilization.) I don't think your golden horde units really match with the mongol empire's military style.

[isledebananas]

Yeah Rhun is supposed to be much like Gondor. They have soldiers with really good equipment but not as good as Elves and Dwarves do. The other races of Men of the East: Mahud, Variags of Khand, Haradrim, and Corsairs were while good warriors (especially Khand and more so Harad) they lacked the nice equipment since their lands were pretty desolate. They do have a more Mongol / Bedouin like culture and style.

My main gripe is the two elite units by elite I mean anti-hero ones. Its already weird with the elves since they have two. I think we can chop some of these elites out. For Rhun I think if they were just made into one (I have no idea on the name) but just make them have a bow and scimitar or axe toggle. This would give the evil side an elite comparable to the elves with range.

They should have the weapons like this only the scimitar and archer version


but with the armor design like this


About the Variag axemen and Mahud bludgeoners. I see where your going with having the axemen and bludgeoners be the backup for the Rhun and Southron swordsmen since they are good at giving damage not taking. However, that doesn't work too well with melee units especially in a bigger battle they will easily get taken out. I suppose we should leave that decision to the team about implementing it if they want.

I don't know what about the haradrim lancers I guess they can be given spear/javelin toggle. I know generally that Haradrim has weaker armored units than most factions but still to be pikemen you need good armor to be in the thick of things. That's why I suggested their be pikemen and lancers separate. I personally the lancers should also have a melee that is a bit faster in case units get close. The lancers then might seem redundant since they have pikes and they have archers but they need the high damage since most Harad units are not as good at taking damage and dealing it out they need the lancers.

Depending on if that mount horde thing ever is implemented I guess the two different elites Serpent Guard can be merged. Also I still think the Hashiarii should not be in hordes. The GW one shown and the description make it seem as they are single units who do things from behind the scenes. Not someone who should be duking it out with other units on the battlefield. They should be somewhat like Wormtongue imo since they are pure assassins. I believe that Harad should have more specialized units to make up for the fact that their armor weapons aren't as strong nor do they have the massive numbers or monsters like Moria/Mordor to tank.

[mike_]

Well, might as well toss some of my own ideas in

Rhun: A heavy infantry-based faction, similar in many respects to the Kingdom of Gondor. All Rhunic 'native units' are immune to fear.
-Subfactions: Dorwinion (great economic and unit assets - adds 150 to the faction's population) and Khand (auxiliary assets - cavalry and archers, as well as some upgrades).
-Faction Overview: Rhun's units are expensive, but worth the cost. They're able to soak up arrows like it's going out of style, and won't break in the face of what would cause most Men to cower in fear. Once having made alliance with either of their geographic neighbors, more possibilities are opened up for use - such as the marauding horsemen and mounted archers of Khand, as well as the economic bonuses and unit upgrades of Dorwinion.
-Units:
~Rhunic Legionnaires. Sword and shield-wielding warriors of Rhun, have a rechargeable 'throwing spears' special attack. Upgradeable with Ritual Tattooing to have them cause fear on enemy units, as well as increase attack rate. Can be given Banners to increase their Rank to Rank Two, Triple-Forged Blades (after sealing Dorwinion's aid) to increase weapon damage, and Trophy Pelts (after unlocking Khand's help) to increase health and armour. Can be upgraded to Cult of the Bull (after unlocking Dorwinion) to increase move speed and cause knockback in combat.
~Rhunic Bowmen. Initially somewhat poor archers, with decent armour but poor range. Can be upgraded to Cult of the Falcon (after unlocking Khand) to give them a huge ranged distance and damage boost, bringing them on-par with vanilla Elves. Can also be upgraded with Banners and Trophy Pelts.
~Dorwinion Mercenaries. Available after allying with Dorwinion. Fast-moving, lightly-armoured pikemen - similar to sixteenth century Landsknechte. Upgradeable with Banners, Triple-Forged Blades, and Trophy Pelts.
~Variag Horsemen. Fast-moving mounted archers; can toggle to axes. Can upgrade with Banners, Triple-Forged Blades, and Trophy Pelts.

Harad: A light cavalry-based faction, relying on numbers and exceptional maneuverability to attain victory.
-Subfactions: Umbar (naval and economic assets) and Far Harad (heavy unit assets - heavy infantry and monsters).
-Faction Overview: The Army of the Southrons judges its' units on a scale far different from that of the other factions; it's light infantry are little more than wild tribesmen given proper weapons, its heavy infantry equal in arms and armour to that of the standard soldiery of Gondor. However, the Men of Harad's true strength is in their cavalry. The cavalry of Harad consists of the scimitar-wielding folk of Haradwaith (an analogue to "medium cavalry") and the violent frontiersmen of Near Harad (light cavalry that can toggle from bows to lances).


Will add a lot more in due time.

[khamulrulz]

it's great that there are so many ideas, but above all they should stick to the lore canon and movie portrayal. i don't think that dorwinion would have allied with rhun at all. it was founded by the elves iirc, before having a northmen population in the third age, and was part of the gondor empire when it reached the sea of rhun. at the war of the ring, the easterlings stayed mainly east of the sea of rhun, and would either have crushed dorwinion or not allied with them.

rhun's only descriptions in the books are of heavy infantry and wains

as for my golden horde naming, i just called it that because of location (not necessarily fighting styles of the mongols) and their army. it also sounds intimidating and cool.

also, i don't think rhun is as archer-heavy as harad or gondor, which is why i gave both their anti-hero hordes to be melee units (very strong ones), to fit my perception of them as heavy infantry and cavalry based.

[mike_]

There is no description of Rhun being a heavy-infantry faction in the books. The closest example leaning towards that is 'fierce, bearded Men' in Return of the King, and it's widely assumed that they are a sort of berskerker - an analogue to the Scandinavian barsark, that is.

And Dorwinion wasn't founded by the Elves - I'm taking their geographic neighboring to Rhun to account for trade, commerce, and mercenaries from both countries to explain their role in the faction. They wouldn't be 'buddy buddy', of course, but with the loss of Erebor to Smaug they'd have to trade with someone - and Rhun is literally right next door.