134 replies to this topic

[Romanul]

What can I say from this thread:

1. I think the following quote nearly suits me:

I'm an atheist (more of an apatheist, but I'm letting myself go here today) and I have never considered killing anybody, nor do I disrespect my parents, and I always donate my change to homeless people I encounter.

I just don't help homeless people. At least not here. Or people on the streets begging for money, since I've seen enough of these people being just blatant liars. Or maybe I'm just arrogant and evil.

2. I don't have anything with homosexuality. I think they deserve their rights. AG's text is a bit too complex for me to understand since I think you should quote stuff there AG, but all I can say is that I don't have anything against them, since I find them to be normal people, and I think that:

-They should be equal to heterosexuals
-They should be able to adopt children/ give birth to children
-They should be able to do anything heterosexuals should do.

My only concern is the way they and their children are going to be accepted. I don't think I'm hurrying to legalize all the above ones considering the fact that (in my country):

-over 95% of the people are religious in my country
-there are nazi/fascist organizations who are anti-semitic, anti-gay, etc. AND LEGAL.
-people are stupid. 47% of the population thinks that the Sun rotates around the Earth.
-the second statement above -> there are also radical religious organizations...

Also, there's the obvious school question which comes up: What your parents' jobs are? I know that they can learn as well as good as other children, my only issue is the way they manage to adapt with the other children.

I know, maybe I'm not that informed, but there's at least 1 bit of truth in my statement.

3. Regarding religious reality shows, I think that they are just stuff for people to earn money tbh, just like lame dance contests.

4. Politically, I am a (centrist) radical reformist. I don't believe that reform can stop, since evolution happens, and we can't stop it.

Radical since at least in my country I don't believe the political parties anymore. They all do the same garbage, no infrastructure, no good economy(hell, no fucking anti-crisis measures, in fact, they were pro-crisis measure. What the fuck.)

I don't think that the world should be lead after 2000 Y.O. principles. Yes, they did have an impact, but that doesn't mean that world got stuck in the ancient period.

[Puppeteer]

I don't believe that reform can stop, since evolution happens, and we can't stop it.

Today's radical is tomorrow's reactionary.

Exactly, I don't hate people for their views but likewise I feel I have equal rights like any other to express my point of view but in the current society if you believe in any old fashioned values like "no sex before marriage" or family units, you seem to be branded a xeno/homophobic or extremist.

Answer me this: how the fuck is homosexuality a "view"?
Who's said anything about "no sex before marriage"? We're talking about love, not lust. Morality and purity is not against, or anything to do with, homosexuality.

Edited by Puppeteer, 28 August 2010 - 05:13 PM.

[Romanul]

Today's radical is tomorrow's reactionary.

Radical as in methods of applying it. I'm not supporting extremes such as Nazi or Stalinist. I rather support what can be called a "benevolent dictatorship". But I don't support it full-time.

Democracy is superior to Dictatorship, whilst Dictatorship is superior to Democracy. Its a paradox, but it happens. Sometimes dictatorship works, but sometimes it leads to big bullshit.

Sometimes democracy works, but its inefficient.

[Pasidon]

Democracy 100% works, as long as the leaders behind it work it right. This happens -100% of the time. Thus, proof humanity is so dumb, they can't keep their own society right when they have the guidelines how-to-do-so right in front of them.

Democracy is superior to Dictatorship, whilst Dictatorship is superior to Democracy. Its a paradox, but it happens.

Stop using inception on us.

[Ash]

So, democracy work, if it's done right. Only, none of them are.

That's probably true of every political system, past or present. Communism, fascism, monarchy, democracy (well, republic really)...they'd all work fine if only they oculd be made to work right. Unfortunately, since nowadays we're a bit rubbish at overthrowing, we're kind of stuck with what we've got for the foreseeable future.

[Caspa]

Power of people can bring down any system.

Just a shame the majority are fucking cowards these days.

[Allathar]

Democracy 100% works, as long as the leaders behind it work it right. This happens -100% of the time.

Agreed... You can see it in the Netherlands now too. 1.5 million people voted right-wing politican Geert Wilders, tripling his seats in the parliament, yet the elite refuses to listen to the people and continue their own ways, because they know better (so they think).

[Mathijs]

You don't think that might have something to do with the fact most of his major points are entirely incompatible with our constitution?

Also, as far as I know and to my horror, he is currently one of the top dogs in the negotiations for the coalition.

Besides, I think Geert Wilders is a prime example of why democracy does not work 100%. He is a populist, playing into the fears and doubts of the people in order to get more votes and get where he wants to be, knowing full well that most of the things he says are either lies of half-truths, designed to cause people to go "yeah, see Mary? That's what I've been sayin' all along! We gotta protect our heritage!".

It's no surprise that the places he got the most votes from are the places with the least amounts of islamic population. And now he's off to New York to protest against the coming of that Islamic cultural center, four (or five?) blocks away from Ground Zero, no, not even a mosque, a place where people can learn and interact about Islam. He (together with all of those dumb American protestors) is utterly ignoring the American constitution which grants freedom of religion and the fact that there has been an actual mosque near Ground Zero since before the WTC was even built, a place where nobody ever protested against nor heard anything of.

Why does he go? To strengthen the bullshit fears of the uneducated Dutch, and to further ridicule our country in the international community.

What a dumbass.

Edited by Matias, 01 September 2010 - 12:14 PM.

[Allathar]

And you think he is also wrong about the fact that there's simply too much immigrants coming here at the moment? Too much immigrants who don't have an education, don't speak Dutch, don't want to learn it, and don't want to integrate, because why would they need to? Do you think he's wrong about the fact that the large cities are turning into Islamic ghetto's? That the only way to keep the system running is by raising the taxes and lowering the benefits for the common working class? Because that's what's happening now.

Let me put it this way:
- immigrants with no education and no future prospects whatsoever come here, tens of thousands a year, and are getting subsidized with positive discrimination and benefits (most of them haven't paid tax a single time in their lifes and don't even speak Dutch)
- billions and billions are getting spent on trying to force those people to integrate, yet it won't work and the problems are getting bigger and bigger
- billions and billions are spent on trying to prevent the climate from changing (and noone realizes how utterly ridiculous this is)
- more billions are spent on foreign aid to Haiti or Pakistan (know what they did with the money for Haiti and Indonesia? No? Noone does.)
- even more billions are spent on third world aid, which usually only makes the problems worse or ends in the hands of a corrupt dictator

While at the same time:
- the government is considering scrapping the student financing (studiefinanciering) because it's unpayable at the moment,
- the government is considering raising the taxes on about everything, especially income taxes, or 'working tax'
- the elders in 'bejaardentehuizen', who've worked and paid taxes all their lifes, are sleeping in their own shit with ten people in a small room,
- the government is saving on the spending of the hospitals

Think the government needs to get their priorities straight? So do I, and Geert Wilders is one of the few politicians that realizes something is seriously wrong in this country. And he has my support.

[Romanul]

Stop using inception on us.

Nein.

Power of people can bring down any system.

No shit. You forget the fact that its not only YOUR people interested in your country, but also foreign powers.

EDIT: Darn it, I should pay more attention: Allathar, your point is stupid, because:

1. They promise, they don't do.

2.Immigrants come because:

-They seek a better life. Its a right given by the European Council/EU shitnot.
-They should be educated. People should not be against them.
-Indeed, I agree on the students and outside support thing.

Edited by Romanul, 01 September 2010 - 04:34 PM.

[Ash]

And you think he is also wrong about the fact that there's simply too much immigrants coming here at the moment? Too much immigrants who don't have an education, don't speak Dutch, don't want to learn it, and don't want to integrate, because why would they need to? Do you think he's wrong about the fact that the large cities are turning into Islamic ghetto's? That the only way to keep the system running is by raising the taxes and lowering the benefits for the common working class? Because that's what's happening now.

Let me put it this way:
- immigrants with no education and no future prospects whatsoever come here, tens of thousands a year, and are getting subsidized with positive discrimination and benefits (most of them haven't paid tax a single time in their lifes and don't even speak Dutch)
- billions and billions are getting spent on trying to force those people to integrate, yet it won't work and the problems are getting bigger and bigger
- billions and billions are spent on trying to prevent the climate from changing (and noone realizes how utterly ridiculous this is)
- more billions are spent on foreign aid to Haiti or Pakistan (know what they did with the money for Haiti and Indonesia? No? Noone does.)
- even more billions are spent on third world aid, which usually only makes the problems worse or ends in the hands of a corrupt dictator

While at the same time:
- the government is considering scrapping the student financing (studiefinanciering) because it's unpayable at the moment,
- the government is considering raising the taxes on about everything, especially income taxes, or 'working tax'
- the elders in 'bejaardentehuizen', who've worked and paid taxes all their lifes, are sleeping in their own shit with ten people in a small room,
- the government is saving on the spending of the hospitals

Think the government needs to get their priorities straight? So do I, and Geert Wilders is one of the few politicians that realizes something is seriously wrong in this country. And he has my support.

I can't quote it for the truth as I don't know what the Netherlands is like. But this is basically, by and large, my sentiment towards the way in which money is spent here, too.

If you read my guest post in "Tax This!", it basically echoes this sentiment in a nutshell.

[Allathar]

Allathar, your point is stupid, because:

1. They promise, they don't do.

Care to eleborate? I don't know what you mean with that.

2.Immigrants come because:

-They seek a better life. Its a right given by the European Council/EU shitnot.
-They should be educated. People should not be against them.
-Indeed, I agree on the students and outside support thing.

- True, and they think they can get a better life by coming here, and expect to be given benefits while not doing anything in return. Let alone the fact that simply way too much people are coming at the moment, and we can't even handle those who are already here. Close the borders, solve the problems, and perhaps then reopen the borders for new immigrants.
- They don't want to be educated - why would they? They can just live in an area with other people from their culture and get the tax money to live from, making it very difficult for them to integrate.
- Glad you agree. I'm not against letting political refugees in the country, as long as they are willing to learn the language, get an education, and above all integrate. Which means leaving stupid shit like burkas, mosques, and the different culture at home and adopt to the Dutch society wherever possible. Basically a 'You want to live here? Well, then you better adapt to our culture, learn our language and contribute to our society', instead of the 'You want to live here? Great, make yourself comfortable, and we'll see what we can do for you!' mentality which is currently the case.

[Ash]

Allathar, your point is stupid, because:

1. They promise, they don't do.

I fail to see how that invalidates Allathar's point, or makes it stupid. No, politicians don't deliver on their promises (or, if they do, it is balanced by being shafted up the rectum doubly hard). That's part of the problem. People are elected based upon what they purport to do for the country. People vote because they see one as being better (usually for themselves - after all who is the one and only and sole person in the whole darn world that matters? Oneself). Then that 'better' one goes on to make life not better but worse for everyone. Just like the one who was not voted for would've done.

2.Immigrants come because:

-They seek a better life. Its a right given by the European Council/EU shitnot.

Seeking a better life is not what is disputed. It is the right to have your own welfare prioritised by your own government over that of those not citizens of your country which is wanted by the population, but not given. In addition, just because it is a legal right, doesn't make it right.
Seeking a better life is fine. It can be sought in one's own country. We each have a pair of hands. Is it so hard that we each exercise our God-given right to improve our lot for ourselves and just go ahead and build it right where we are? And I mean physically, actually build it, not buy it or get some other taxpaying shnook to buy it.

[duke_Qa]

immigrants doesn't just come to us to leech off of what we've made. They learn how to run a proper successful business, they see how you have to work to be effective, they send money back home that aids their families in getting more education and whatnot. Many return home once they feel that they have the know-how and resources to do the same at home and earn money on it.

Immigration is a way for the western world to spread our ways of life into less developed countries. If we have to live with a few leechers which keep their wives in burkas and produces tons of children, it is worth it because we know in the end, that wife is either going to get a divorce and the children are going to get educated and be assimilated into our culture, or at the very least spread ideas that will cause great distress to those that thought they could live the way they've always lived.

[Allathar]

Seriously, do you really think that's the case at the moment? It's rather the opposite. Well, enjoy your bubble.

immigrants doesn't just come to us to leech off of what we've made. They learn how to run a proper successful business, they see how you have to work to be effective, they send money back home that aids their families in getting more education and whatnot. Many return home once they feel that they have the know-how and resources to do the same at home and earn money on it.

In some cases, yes, and that's a good thing, I admire those people. In most cases, unfortunately not, they don't want to work for an education, produce a fuckton of children, and let their families come here instead of getting back to their families.

Immigration is a way for the western world to spread our ways of life into less developed countries. If we have to live with a few leechers which keep their wives in burkas and produces tons of children, it is worth it because we know in the end, that wife is either going to get a divorce and the children are going to get educated and be assimilated into our culture, or at the very least spread ideas that will cause great distress to those that thought they could live the way they've always lived.

Immigration is a way for the Arab world to spread their ways of life into more developed countries. If we have to live with a lot of leechers who keep their wives in burkas and produce tons of children, it isn't worth it, because we know their culture is so different, the wife doesn't even think of a divorce because she's scared of the consequences. The children often end up in the lower tiers of education and society, assimilating that culture and transforming the poorer parts of the cities into Islamic ghetto's, slowly making us adapt our culture and habits to please them, instead of the other way around.

[Romanul]

Allathar, your point is stupid, because:

1. They promise, they don't do.

I fail to see how that invalidates Allathar's point, or makes it stupid. No, politicians don't deliver on their promises (or, if they do, it is balanced by being shafted up the rectum doubly hard). That's part of the problem. People are elected based upon what they purport to do for the country. People vote because they see one as being better (usually for themselves - after all who is the one and only and sole person in the whole darn world that matters? Oneself). Then that 'better' one goes on to make life not better but worse for everyone. Just like the one who was not voted for would've done.

2.Immigrants come because:

-They seek a better life. Its a right given by the European Council/EU shitnot.

Seeking a better life is not what is disputed. It is the right to have your own welfare prioritised by your own government over that of those not citizens of your country which is wanted by the population, but not given. In addition, just because it is a legal right, doesn't make it right.
Seeking a better life is fine. It can be sought in one's own country. We each have a pair of hands. Is it so hard that we each exercise our God-given right to improve our lot for ourselves and just go ahead and build it right where we are? And I mean physically, actually build it, not buy it or get some other taxpaying shnook to buy it.

1. As far as I understood, he was supporting a populist party. This kind of parties aren't that good. Believe me.
2.

Seeking a better life is fine. It can be sought in one's own country.

No shit! Question: Where is life better, in Kazakhstan or in Holland?

[Allathar]

1. As far as I understood, he was supporting a populist party. This kind of parties aren't that good. Believe me.
2.No shit! Question: Where is life better, in Kazakhstan or in Holland?

1. Hell, the 'populist' party is the only party who wants to do what I suggested earlier in this topic: less immigration, less Islam, less environmentalism and thirld world aid, less political correct bullshit, more and better healthcare, less taxes, worse punishments for criminals (they're laughably low at the moment), and own citizens first. Besides, we can't know whether he'll do it or not without giving him a chance first.
2. In Holland. Doesn't mean we can open our borders for whoever the fuck wants to come in for a better life, though, for reasons expressed in previous posts. Sorry to break your illusion, but life is tough, learn to deal with it.

[duke_Qa]

Life is tough on all.

"Own citizens first" is a useless phrase: most of the people in burkas and in ghettos have legal citizenship. I'd say "Own culture-adherers first" is more correct; it shows that you think there are multiple cultures in your country and that yours should be a priority(does sound a bit more dirty though). I can sort of agree on this from a objective standpoint. If we were under a culture siege by a objectively inferior culture, I'd do my best to oppose said culture(the social parts of fascism/nazism/communism was probably the last good examples of that in recent history).

But today it's not a siege, it's a few percentages moving around to get freedom and work and a better way of life. Sure we have some holding up in ghettos, But that doesn't mean they are infiltrating society and spreading their culture like the plague... All in all its a drop in the sea compared to the culture we are forcing in on them. It is however wise to tear down those walls that they build around them. They are after all what is stopping them from integrating properly and being "assimilated" into the greater national spirit, so to speak. It is politically incorrect to say assimilate, but that's basically what we want, and what needs to be done to avoid big-ass ghettos turning into societies of their own.

on the other side of the coin: Saudia Arabia and all them oil-rich arab nations have pumped billions of dollars into spreading Islam around the world. This is what you fear, but this has not been very successful up here. Africa and Asia on the other hand... In the end, the Western world is still too hardcore towards its own culture to be influenced by these sort of culture-spreaders; we just don't need it to fulfill our needs.

Edited by duke_Qa, 02 September 2010 - 01:53 PM.

[Allathar]

"Own citizens first" is a useless phrase: most of the people in burkas and in ghettos have legal citizenship.

True, but I think those legal citizenships are given away too fast.

But today it's not a siege, it's a few percentages moving around to get freedom and work and a better way of life. Sure we have some holding up in ghettos, But that doesn't mean they are infiltrating society and spreading their culture like the plague...

But that's what's happening. And it's not 'a few percentages' anymore - more than 50% of the people in Amsterdam have a non-western ethnicity. And because Islam families produce thrice as much children as western ones, the problem is getting bigger and bigger, and the fact that the border is still open for them doesn't help at all.

All in all its a drop in the sea compared to the culture we are forcing in on them.

Not really. There are now a lot of things we are forbidden to do, just to avoid hurting the minority. We can't show Muhammed anymore, a lot of public places serve only halal meat, and above all we can't complain about them because that would be xenophobic, racist, discriminating, etc.

It is however wise to tear down those walls that they build around them. They are after all what is stopping them from integrating properly and being "assimilated" into the greater national spirit, so to speak. It is politically incorrect to say assimilate, but that's basically what we want, and what needs to be done to avoid big-ass ghettos turning into societies of their own.

Indeed, glad you agree on that.

[Imagine]

I sort of agree with duke and allathar about the immigration issue, although allathar I don't quite understand what the problem with having a high percentage of people with non-western ethnicity, or maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. In Britain it is quite similar to what you are saying where immigrants seemingly "blockade" themselves into ghetto's and make no attempt to integrate or even help society by leeching of it, but still finding the courage to complain when there is something they don't like.

Not really. There are now a lot of things we are forbidden to do, just to avoid hurting the minority. We can't show Muhammed anymore, a lot of public places serve only halal meat, and above all we can't complain about them because that would be xenophobic, racist, discriminating, etc.

I can see what you mean here, it just seems to me that people especially politicians do not understand that racism and discrimination is a two way street. Sometimes I can understand why I see British or English or whatever it is called these days don't like the idea of immigration. It's hard for me not to like a hypocrite when talking about these issues considering I'm from an immigrant family in Britain since the early 20's.