134 replies to this topic

[Allathar]

I sort of agree with duke and allathar about the immigration issue, although allathar I don't quite understand what the problem with having a high percentage of people with non-western ethnicity, or maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. In Britain it is quite similar to what you are saying where immigrants seemingly "blockade" themselves into ghetto's and make no attempt to integrate or even help society by leeching of it, but still finding the courage to complain when there is something they don't like.

That's one thing yes, and another thing is that the Dutch culture disappears from the cities and the Islamic culture takes over, instead of the other way around, as it should be.

[Imagine]

Exactly I don't mind seeing other cultures mixing together from what I've seen in London it works well in areas like Peckham and so on. It's when one culture supersedes the original culture that things go horribly wrong. I like the idea of cultures mixing and so on, to me it's crucial in a successful society. I mean come on think about it, if cultures didn't mix and accept each other, WW2 would have been over in days. Back on topic though. If you take an area in London where immigration turned out good, i.e Kennington or Peckham, you see loads of cultures whether; middle eastern, Arab, Asian, Hispanic. You see these cultures but they still understand the idea that it isn't their country so they do not make the rules nor do they govern them. Whereas go to an area like Hackney or Ealing, which look quite like ghetto's in some respect where one race is packed in and they believe IT IS THEIR area and that THEY GOVERN IT. Like I say to all people who don't like living here, Don't like it? LEAVE!. It's simple. The amount of times I've been called a racist or a BNP lover. A BNP loving black Muslim? what have they been smoking.

[Ash]

If only more thought like you, Imagine.

I disagree with the burka on a number of levels, though. I'm not about legislating how people are permitted to dress, but I am about the right to ask for the removal or drawing back of a face covering garment in indoor premises.

Language barriers are also a problem. I can forgive those who are only here on holiday, but I do expect a reasonable command of English from people. Call me intolerant, but if you live here, the least respect you could afford the country that is now keeping you is to learn how to speak the same language as the people of that country. To do otherwise (and worse, to prevent your wives doing otherwise) is just fucking ignorant. I would not dream of going to live in any other country without knowing at least one of its national languages, or making a fucking good effort to learn it. I aim to move to Canada one day. I know one of Canada's official languages. Sure, I confess I'm useless at the other but English is spoken everywhere throughout Canada, and I'd only live in the English-speaking segments anyway. I wouldn't live in France, not just because I can't abide the French but also because I don't speak French. Simples.

[Imagine]

I'm not about legislating how people are permitted to dress, but I am about the right to ask for the removal or drawing back of a face covering garment in indoor premises.

That's actually a good point. I don't mind seeing burka's at all but in indoor premises whether public or private I feel they should be taken off. To me it's for security reasons not terrorism or some junk like that. It's because say there is a robbery in a jewellery store, you'd want to be able to question everyone who was there and a Burka will make that job a hell of a lot more difficult.

I would not dream of going to live in any other country without knowing at least one of its national languages, or making a fucking good effort to learn it.

Reminds me of when I moved to the UK, I moved here at age 5 knowing my two native languages, Yoruba and Ibo. So English is my 3rd language, it took me a good few years to fully get to grips with the English language, but it's way better than just not knowing what is going on around you. The problem with not even trying to learn the language is that it severely cripples you in terms of social compatibility. Even costing you a good education.

I wouldn't live in France, not just because I can't abide the French but also because I don't speak French. Simples.

Smart words.

[duke_Qa]

But that's what's happening. And it's not 'a few percentages' anymore - more than 50% of the people in Amsterdam have a non-western ethnicity. And because Islam families produce thrice as much children as western ones, the problem is getting bigger and bigger, and the fact that the border is still open for them doesn't help at all.

Amsterdam might not be the best example of a city(being a port in a nation known for its golden age of sails and colonies). But I can see the problem of a city getting 50% non-western inhabitants. Then again, its a modern city with some of the most liberal attitudes to anything. It will convert some and radicalize others.

non-western =/= muslim or negative culture affiliation after all.

Not really. There are now a lot of things we are forbidden to do, just to avoid hurting the minority. We can't show Muhammed anymore, a lot of public places serve only halal meat, and above all we can't complain about them because that would be xenophobic, racist, discriminating, etc.

halal is more common up here too, but after what i hear its mostly about putting a muslim with the basic slaughter-prayer education in the slaughterhouse and say a few prayers over whatever is being killed(no old-school slaughtering, only prayers) and putting a big fine stamp on the wrappings. Doesn't bother me the least. Surely you can show muhammed, but i can't recall seeing him before 9/11, and after that he got that "crooked nose and bag of gold"-look to him. The fact that you notice that there are things you are not allowed to say and say something about it is a sign of good freedom-health in my opinion

Indeed, glad you agree on that.

Well I'm just trying to avoid putting every poor bastard and Imagine into the same bag before I criticize them. It is dangerous to do like France and allow tons of people with radically different cultures gather in suburbs and create their own societies. You have to make sure you get the fresh ones spread evenly around your nation, and make sure you don't get so many at the same time that they reach critical mass and get the opportunity to keep living their lives exactly as they did back in the old country. That just causes frustration and annoyance for everyone.

[Ash]

That's actually a good point. I don't mind seeing burka's at all but in indoor premises whether public or private I feel they should be taken off. To me it's for security reasons not terrorism or some junk like that. It's because say there is a robbery in a jewellery store, you'd want to be able to question everyone who was there and a Burka will make that job a hell of a lot more difficult.

It's only the same as if I were riding a motorcycle and got off to go into a bank or something. I would be expected to remove my helmet so I could be identified. Hell, out of courtesy I always remove my sunglasses if I step indoors to a shop, or even up to a cafe-trailer. I think it's only fair to make proper eye contact if I'm dealing with someone. If it's someone I know, or who I'm only talking to, I might not, but if it's a shop worker I think it shows honesty. And besides...they could be hiding anything under there, and I don't have the power to search them unless a) I'm arresting them and b) I'm at a cop shop to search them. By which time they could have already stabbed me in the gut, shot me in the face and/or turned me into a fine paste on the wall... =/

Reminds me of when I moved to the UK, I moved here at age 5 knowing my two native languages, Yoruba and Ibo. So English is my 3rd language, it took me a good few years to fully get to grips with the English language, but it's way better than just not knowing what is going on around you. The problem with not even trying to learn the language is that it severely cripples you in terms of social compatibility. Even costing you a good education.

Which is why it's such a powerful control tool. Immoral immigrant husbands use it now to prevent their wives from ever getting the wherewithal to leave them, just as medieval kings and the Church used to speak Latin to keep the poor folk in ignorance.

[Romanul]

I still don't get the burka thing. Its just a cloth, relax FFS. Suddenly all women wearing burkas are some sort of devils coming from hell. Its covering their whole body - so what? there are people running naked. "bombs", "i got the right to know what's happening" is just bullshit. If the same theory applied then crayons would be illegal just because if you stick one in your eyeball is pretty plausible that you'll have your eye where your feet are.

[Ash]

Don't be so fucking stupid. There are so many reasons that that analogy is retarded that I'm not even going to go into them.

[Bart]

So, democracy work, if it's done right. Only, none of them are.

Why do we have democracy? It's because a dictatorship can be very good, but also very bad, while democracy is at least mediocre. It's the same reason we prefer working to get money over going to the casino every day.

[Romanul]

Don't be so fucking stupid. There are so many reasons that that analogy is retarded that I'm not even going to go into them.

Then give me a reason why it should be banned.

[Caspa]

Why do we have democracy?

Here's a better question.

Where do we have democracy? A real democracy, and not a bullshit system where 97% of the population have no real say or control.

[Puppeteer]

Why do we have democracy?

Here's a better question.

Where do we have democracy? A real democracy, and not a bullshit system where 97% of the population have no real say or control.

This is one of the reasons why I so detest the Big Two and a Half in this country - even when the Lib Dems promise an alternative, they are neither delivering nor showing a commitment. PR, and AVP/AVP+, were big issues in the recent election. It's one of the LD's main policies. Why enter a coalition if you're going to abandon an important policy? Disgraceful.
I either want full democracy or no democracy.

[Ash]

Well, that's lucky, then, because we don't have democracy in this country!

[Romanul]

Well, that's lucky, then, because we don't have democracy in this country!

Actually, sadly, you do. You actually have a system that could work. However, I don't know about people there. At least as far as I know, people live there pretty well, therefore everything is fine.

[Ash]

Standard of living is not an indicator of government type.

We don't have a democracy. Our electoral system isn't even representative of the electorate. First-past-the-post is wholly undemocratic. That is why a party received over two million votes nationwide got not a single MP elected, and yet another party that received less than 400,000 got an MP elected. FPP favours whoever is currently in power, and the single-largest other party, who will hold sway forever.

I wonder why it is that those parties oppose a proportional representation system. Is it possibly because that nobody wielding power ever wishes to surrender or relinquish it? Oh, except for the surrendering of power to those unelected bastards who make up the EU dictatorship.

And that's only the House of Commons. The House of Lords is wholly unelected, and full of prissy up-their-own-arse dickheads like Mandelson and Prescott. And the Lords have rights to hold ministerial office. They have even been Prime Minister on a number of occasions. Unelected. Undemocratic.

[dangerman1337]

Standard of living is not an indicator of government type.

We don't have a democracy. Our electoral system isn't even representative of the electorate. First-past-the-post is wholly undemocratic. That is why a party received over two million votes nationwide got not a single MP elected, and yet another party that received less than 400,000 got an MP elected. FPP favours whoever is currently in power, and the single-largest other party, who will hold sway forever.

I wonder why it is that those parties oppose a proportional representation system. Is it possibly because that nobody wielding power ever wishes to surrender or relinquish it? Oh, except for the surrendering of power to those unelected bastards who make up the EU dictatorship.

And that's only the House of Commons. The House of Lords is wholly unelected, and full of prissy up-their-own-arse dickheads like Mandelson and Prescott. And the Lords have rights to hold ministerial office. They have even been Prime Minister on a number of occasions. Unelected. Undemocratic.

But the sadder thing is that they keep bugging us with heatlh and saftey, splunge our taxes our useless QUANGOs (Such as teh supreme British Potato council ), themselves and greedy MEPs and the lot, let yobs and teenagers who constantly play MW2 to be police force (not you Ash you keep the whole police force from being a total flawp). I love how some call people who want our freedom and crazy to be more in our hands are "crazy" because it will cause everything to collapse.

[Puppeteer]

There's no point me voting in South West Hertfordshire - always has been, and always will be, fiercely Tory. I believe my little village is somewhat Liberal, but the surrounding duchies, mansions and landlord estates have voted the same way since 1950.

I wonder why it is that those parties oppose a proportional representation system. Is it possibly because that nobody wielding power ever wishes to surrender or relinquish it?

I don't doubt that they're planning on making a bust of Machiavelli to be the fifth statue in the House of Commons. The parties can never give a good enough answer to not adopting PR, except that it would form 'weak, unstable and uncooperative coalitions' - hmm.

And that's only the House of Commons. The House of Lords is wholly unelected, and full of prissy up-their-own-arse dickheads like Mandelson and Prescott. And the Lords have rights to hold ministerial office. They have even been Prime Minister on a number of occasions. Unelected. Undemocratic.

Well, the last member in the House of Lords to be Prime Minister was Lord Salisbury at the start of the 20th Century, but I agree that their privileged position are entirely unwarranted.

Edited by Puppeteer, 08 September 2010 - 07:49 PM.

[Allathar]

Well, at least in Britain, the Queen doesn't have any political power, unlike in Holland... Here, she decides which person will lead the coalition forming process, who has great influence in the decision which coalition will ultimately be formed. On top of that she earns millions a year, everything she buys is paid by the working tax payer, has private jets and huge landhouses all over the world, and is one of the richest women on Earth. Purely because of her birthright and a couple of groundlaws, which means we'll probably be stuck with her and her family forever.

[Vortigern]

There's no point me voting in South West Hertfordshire - always has been, and always will be, fiercely Tory. I believe my little village is somewhat Liberal, but the surrounding duchies, mansions and landlord estates have voted the same way since 1950.

I live in the Henley constituency of Oxfordshire. Or at least, that's where I'm registered to vote. We've only had one non-Tory MP in the entire history of elections, and he only lasted one term, which was from 1906-1910. When Boris Johnson became Mayor of London and we had a by-election, a lot of people thought we might have an opportunity to change something, but then the Tory candidate won by more than 10'000 votes, and then stayed elected by more than 17'000. I had to check Wikipedia to even know his name, but that's just how this system works. I agree with Ash: this is not a democracy.

[Allathar]

And even if we get to manage a decent government through a decent election process, it won't help at all. The Netherlands have given away far too many rights to the European Union, who now decide for us how to run the country. Of course, the leading figures of the EU aren't democtatically chosen.