461 replies to this topic

[Gfire]

Well, if you're a good player in general you won't really be able to queue up units anyway... But that's kind of a hard thing without real consistent income, which is something those games lack. BFME2 doesn't have that problem.

[mike_]

Alright, what do you guys want to know? What period are we talking, here? Personally, I think the most interesting option would be to treat it as one overarching period - maybe the Peloponnesian War (431 BCE to 404 BCE). This was a period of conflict between the Athenian Empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta.

What's so appealing about this period of warfare is the focus on infantry. You would have two main types of infantry - the peltasts and hoplites. Peltasts were light infantry, primarily slingers (the bow was a technology more commonly found in Eurasian cultures than Greek ones - the primary exception being Crete. More on that later.) and javelinmen. Their point-of-existence at the time was to screen the hoplites from enemy peltasts. In terms of upgrades, what first comes to mind for me would be an advancement from cheap wicker shields to the heavier bronze-covered wooden ones. A less well-known technical advancement was the amentum, or throwing straps fastened to javelins. They cause the weapons to rotate like bullets, land point-first, and fly steadier.

The second, and of course more easily recognized unit, would be the hoplite. You could do a lot of fun things with this. I'm talking technological upgrades across the board - aspis shields getting personal symbols painted onto them, bronze panoplies upgrading to linothorax, possibly randomizing between xiphos and kopis swords - the list goes on and on

I know that you don't want to get too far in over your collective heads now, but something that may be increadibly interesting would be to choose a point in time (say, 200 BCE) and represent several different cultures from across the Classical world - the Qin Dynasty of Japan, the loose alliance of Greece, growing Rome, the thousands of barbarian tribes to the North... there's a /ton/ of possibilities there, if you're interested.

Anyway, if you guys need any help with research, advice, et al, just let me know. I'd be more than happy to share my knowledge of this time in history.

[Kwen]

Infantry is important yes, but architecture will be HUGE as well.

[mike_]

Oh, of course. I take it that you've researched it at least in passing? The Minoan murals found at Crete, for example, could make for some truly beautiful texture designs...

[Kwen]

My fingers are tingling at the thought of making the assets for the infantry.

[mike_]

Indeed. There was a great variety of weapons available to them - my personal favourite is the ax. It was a simple, bronze ax with a wide cutting edge on one side (for use on unarmoured areas) and a penetrating spike on the opposite (for puncturing right through armour...).

Sounds fun, no?

[Kwen]

Historical warfare was very brutal.

[mike_]

Oh, of course. Especially in the period we're talking about - any wound was usually fatal, considering the lack of medicinal practice at the time.

You know, the Greeks were known for their advances in the arts, philosophies, and sciences... maybe a healing power could be unlocked via tech-tree?

[Kwen]

I'm sure it would be, to an extent.

Here is an idea, we should do away with the banner carrier re spawning units. Troops should be expendable. Ranking up is still good, and becoming stronger. but if you die, you die... Also adds more strategy. More incentive to retreat earlier, ect. better for laying traps.

Because in bfme (especially in 2 with bigger hordes) if you're caught in an ambush, and as long as one dude out of your whole horde lives, its no loss to you. so what was the point of that ambush? Kinda nulls the military strategy...

[Lauri]

I know that you don't want to get too far in over your collective heads now, but something that may be increadibly interesting would be to choose a point in time (say, 200 BCE) and represent several different cultures from across the Classical world - the Qin Dynasty of Japan, the loose alliance of Greece, growing Rome, the thousands of barbarian tribes to the North... there's a /ton/ of possibilities there, if you're interested.

My concern is the workload. Of coures, I'd love samurais and barbarians, but let's keep it simple as we start. 2 factions is more than enough work

Anyway, if you guys need any help with research, advice, et al, just let me know. I'd be more than happy to share my knowledge of this time in history.

Good, cause researchers are not only wanted, but needed! Between coding, modeling, texturing and general modding, it'll help alot in the long run

edit:
@Kwen: That sounds like a good idea. IIRC hordes do self-small themselves when loosing troops, so it wouldn't look to ugly either.
Retreat isn't something I've every used in BFME\2\RotWK though, but making ambushes harsher sounds like fun. Traps too

Edited by Lauri, 02 November 2010 - 02:27 AM.

[mike_]

Well my only concern with an Athens/Sparta mod is that I don't think they'll be different enough to warrant being separate. Personally, I think that it would be more interesting to choose two civilizations that never interacted, but did coexist: the Greeks and Chinese. They both have very impressive architecture, religion and different ways of approaching warfare, which I'd be more than happy to elaborate on if you guys support this idea

EDIT: Yes, I agree with you Kwen. Realism all the way!!

Edited by mike_, 02 November 2010 - 02:29 AM.

[Kwen]

I vote we give this a shot. I've got oodles of time, I spend a lot of it working on MME, but progress has been enough lately that I can shed some time for another project.

[mike_]

I'd be more than happy to whip up some preliminary tech-trees for you, if you want to know what I think they should look like

[Lauri]

I spend little time on T4A, but mainly because there's just boring work left
Motivation is the biggest key, and I've got plenty of that for this one!

@mike: That is my primary concern aswell. I haven't really gotten a reply on if they're really different or not. Of course, a greek faction and a Qin would leave a lot of differences, and especially visually!

Come to think of it, I loved the Japanese, Persian and Byzantinese the most in AoE2.. guess that explains my choices of what factions I want

also, what about the Ring? Could we try to get something going on with that? Could be as simple as having a guy sneaking around with a message of what the other team plans to do, and the one who get's him get's to summon a general to the battlefield, that they'll need now that they know the enemies plan, or something. As an extra hero, not an overpowered one. I don't know.. we have the possibility, but I don't think it's neccesary with anything for starters

[Kwen]

I'm stoked. I even have some (Primitive) greek style soldier models. That can be used as bases for awesome new ones.

[mike_]

Well, the main difference between Athens and Sparta was that Athens had a navy and trade-oriented economy while Sparta had a more agricultural, slave-based one. Rather than try to shoehorn those relatively small differences (which, for a combat-oriented game, isn't much of a difference at all) into two different factions, I suggest that they're merged into one Greek faction (it's happened before - I'll try to find the proper names and all at some point). What would be very interesting would be a choice by the player at the beginning of the match, to make Athens or Sparta have greater influence in the overall play of the faction (in terms of units, buildings, technologies, economies, slaves vs. villager units...).

And then we could do the Qin

[Kwen]

But Athens and Sparta had very different economies, so they're usage of technologies would be completely different.

[mike_]

But how would that effect gameplay? I think that it would be more fun to have a choice between picking a more open, water-based economy (fishing boats anyone?) or a more localized, agricultural one while still playing the same faction. I mean, at the end of the day, they're still Greeks.

[Kwen]

Yeah, but lets keep it at 2 factions to start. So we don't overload ourselves.

[Spartan184]

Yes, yes, and since I'm a Spartan I get to be team leader