80 replies to this topic

[Predi]

I hope this mod can reborn again, because it's the only game(mod) that truly represents the movies and tha books - at least for me. Maybe if you really start from scratch that could be beneficial. You have all the models, and the game mechanics, so just the coding is what really required (and that's the hardest part, but still)

Anyways, stay strong and Keep It Real!


@Matias: Now, you're just being childish. Besides, Naz didn't say he needed any favours or help (from you) I'm sure they can come up with something with the Ridders, so don't diminish our hopes further with your Negative Waves

[Arthadan]

I know Naz and his team will finish the mod. Maybe the decission to restart it's not the optimal, or maybe it is (after all nobody knows better than them the current status of the problem and what they have already tried to fix it). Anyway, in the end it doesn't matter.

Naz has provide me already a fun mod I enjoy, and he has managed to keep it on track for quite a few years, so he has all my support.

A Nazgûl has his ways, who am I to question them?

Best luck and keep the good work!

Edited by Arthadan, 22 November 2010 - 11:14 PM.

[Phil]

Seems like my post got drowned in all the "Naz is being childish! No, Matias is being childish!"-talk... pity. I'll try again one time and after that I'll shut up. See this as some personal advice, something I give to you guys as a gift. You can keep it or dump it in the trash, that's not my call.

You should to focus on debugging. Like I said, this bug is certainly not irreversible - only because nobody has found it yet doesn't mean it can't be found and fixed (probably fixing it is really easy once you've found it anyway). Maybe you haven't tried enough? Maybe you haven't tried the right approach? Maybe you haven't tried with the right tools? Who can tell? What you need is a proper debugging strategy and a lot of plain old effort.

If I were you guys, I'd set up a new topic where you try to solve this problem from a fresh start. Post error logs, think of what could cause it, create a plan how to systematically test that, etc. Most important of all, let people help you in that search. Amidst all the quarreling in this topic we've seen some good suggestions already. Splitting the mod into parts, creating a new empty "skeleton"-mod and porting over things one by one. If you want to go hardcore (and manage to find somebody who can do it) you might even plug WB itself into a debugger and start looking at the stack traces and memory footprints before the crash to get an idea what the problem is. There are so many ways to approach this problem, surely one will lead to success.

I just don't believe it's worth cancelling such a project because of a problem that might be as trivial as a missing period. Or ditching all of the code that, from what I understand, nobody here seems able to reproduce because Sul was so brilliant in its creation.

[Nazgûl]

Thanks for the productive post Phil, and for everyone talking chill pills now, so we're done arguing (I hope)...

Anyways... there's a lot to this matter that indeed became drenched in the off topic crap...
I have posted my problems with this in the past and people have tried to help. Rob38 for instance. And like I said, many have tried to set this up and failed, even Sûl, so the crash that RG found is probably the cause of that. The error resport only states that WB doesn't like the FXParticleSystem.INI, and I think that's in the 1st post of this topic. That's all we know! Now, like I also said, RG did what I would have done, and reverted back to vanilla game FX... still WB crashed due to the same reference (!?). Pretty strange huh? So we have nothing to go on... Reassembling the mod, setp by step, like M said would require more fiddling than doing the whole thing all over - something that I got the imporession that Rob38 meant too, as he didn't think it would take 1-2 years to redo all the coding. I have no idea actually... since I havent coded after Beta 4 myself. All I know is that Sul did a looooooooooooooooooooot of messing around in aaaaaaaaaaaaalll inis (am I being too dramatic now again? ). So... even if we did locate this bug, I fear we might run into several more and have the same problem again, over and over again... =/ Thus I made this topic - not to ask for help, but to tell the players/fans and whatever that we might be stuck, for good.

Even since then my "knights" have been contemplating wildely about the possibility of redoing SEE. Like I said - that's not something that appeals to me - at all. However - the positive sides to that could be many:

- All coding could be separated from the vanilla codes, using INC files. This would mean we have better overview of the coding, whoever would work with it.
- We have the option to do SEE faction by faction, spell book by spell book, hero by hero, unit by unit... yeah you get the picture, and as such, I could keep 100% track of all changes, which I truly lost along the way with all them half finished projects of Sûl, meaning we'd have a complete change log, based on all the old ones and completed with new changes.
- We could test test test, the mod, after each and every addion/change, to make sure it's stable and running in game and in WB. killing any bug we encounter along the way and through that, increase the possibility of having full compatibility with Campaigns (and perhaps even WotR mode).
- We could use the current SEE to set up all cool new anims (like Falling Deaths for Fellbeasts) and FX (like new Burning Deaths) and whatnot, as long as we test each time we copy something.

The negative sides are and could be:
- The Ridder boys fail, give up or leave, meaning SEE is back to where it is now. Ergo no change and nothing has become any worse, other than the time we spend to get there, which to be honest would be worse for them, than for me. I'm merely the director. The cast, and the production crew are the ones that really sweat, so to speak =P But yeah it IS a huge... an immense task, that is not to be taken lightly upon indeed, and I fear noone would truly last to the very end... but at least we might end up at another point with less problems, bugs and incomprehendable codes.
- We go on together, towards a new release of SEE, but the amount of time it takes are so huge that anything could happen along the way. Anything... as in accidents, work, free time, relationships, families, etc... all that might affect a hobby like this.

So yeah, no matter what we do, or don't do - it's a huge obstacle to even decide and that's pretty dramatic in itself after 4 years... Sorry if anyone chose to read that like the end of the world though. Even if I can be "dramatic" when posting - it's just a game and a hobby =p. I can tell you though, that currently I am surrounded by helpful people that really wants to work with SEE, from scratch. And with the enormous library of assets we have, it should mean a somewhat speedy recovery, even if speedy means a huge number of months without any guarantees. I guess something is better than nothing though, and as long as I have people wanting to work with me for SEE, there's still hope, however faint it might be.

Edited by Nazgûl, 23 November 2010 - 12:32 AM.

[drogoth232]

What Phil said.

I too had an irreversible bug. (Always with the Game.Dat issues). Dont know what it was, but I always ended up fixing it by erasing, adding, and sleeping . All Im saying is that we CAN solve it. I think that ALL the coders in the community working together COULD do it. But again, that is just a dream.

[Nazgûl]

Lol yeah, THAT wont happen... A nice dream though, I agree
Speaking of sleep... good call *signing off*

[_Haldir_]

I'm really quite confused as to what all the fuss is about. It all just seems overly-dramatic doom and gloom to me.

There have been many helpful suggestions in this thread (i.e. Phil, Matias, Rob38), but they seem to have been glazed over or just plain ignored:

• Find the bug and fix it. It might mean you and your team have to comb through code for a couple of weeks. Or try reconstructing the mod and continually testing it to help narrow it down. I sincerely doubt that copy-pasting varying bits of code would "require more fiddling than doing the whole thing all over". If you fix it and find another bug, then just repeat the process.
  
  
• If you can't find it, make a bare-essential "mod" that only contains what you require in WB for each faction (e.g. a "Rhun fortress mod", a "Harad fortress mod" and a "Rohan fortress mod"). If that doesn't work, then it will still help you narrow down wherever this WB-breaking bug is, and hopefully help you fix it. Then try it again.
  
  
• And this might be painfully obvious and a clear indication of my lack of knowledge, but have you tried simply removing or editing the FXParticleSystem.ini?

It's a seemingly complex problem, so you can't expect an answer to appear within a week of you bumping your old topic. Yes the thread was started 2 years ago, but a lot has changed since 2008. There's a lot more coding knowledge for one thing. And people don't exactly trawl through 20 pages of 2 year old topics and necro-post solutions.

If you really believe that the alternative "recoding" of SEE would take another 1-2 years, then i think you owe it to yourself and to your fans to try every possible solution and accept every bit of advice before you start down that path. And that means more than pinning all your hopes on the Ridder boys there. Even if narrowing down the problems takes you the next 6-12 months, it's better than starting over, and your mod will that much cleaner.

I think you'll just have to pull your finger out and get on with it

Edited by _Haldir_, 23 November 2010 - 10:54 AM.

[King Harlaus]

I wish you good luck to find the matter of the bug , even if it's hard to delete there are plenty of people who can help you ; even though I don't know skinning or coding , I can support you until the end , right ? As a mod fan , I know how it must be frustrating and annoying when there is a bug you can't solve ; but when there is a problem , there is a way to vanquish it .

[Nazgûl]

I'm really quite confused as to what all the fuss is about. It all just seems overly-dramatic doom and gloom to me.

The fuzz is as always mostly due to the lack of chemistry between me and some people, mostly one. The veterans of these forums have seen us clash before, maaany times, and much worse than this. We simply don't interact - that's all And as an old man I can tell you that it's just a normal part of life, no biggie =)

There have been many helpful suggestions in this thread (i.e. Phil, Matias, Rob38), but they seem to have been glazed over or just plain ignored.

I'm not that fond of these constant claims of me ignoring help? Telling somone to "try again", "find the bugs", "don't give up", isn't help... it's more of encouragement if anything. Allthough some of it was more of arguing over off topic matters, than anything else... Let's make something clear: I am NOT a skilled coder. I'm not even a good coder. I was a somewhat decent coder, but that's all. Ever since Sûl joined, SEE was turned into something 10x bigger than imagined (coding wise) and therefore I lost control over it. This has been explained like all over the place. Combined with the fact that I don't have enough time to spend coding due to IRL (coding can't be compared to being active in the forums btw), I end up on a dead end where I'm still dependant on others to code. At least the backbone of the production, leaving minor things to me, such as minor fx, balance, skinning, art, etc. Most of the time goes to administrating team efforts though, and the real coding part is a lost matter to me. Ergo I can NOT solve this. I have tried every possible way I can think of, including most of what you all suggest - beleive it or not. But my skills don't cover the effort needed for all possible solutions. And if Sûl can't set up his own work to function with WB, my hopes of solving it is rather flat on the ground.

It's a seemingly complex problem, so you can't expect an answer to appear within a week of you bumping your old topic. Yes the thread was started 2 years ago, but a lot has changed since 2008. There's a lot more coding knowledge for one thing. And people don't exactly trawl through 20 pages of 2 year old topics and necro-post solutions.

Yes it is indeed a complex problem. Thus we have this topic, that is - once again - NOT a cry for help, but a statement of where we are = stuck. The WB topic is 2 years old yes, but I fail to see how you turn 1 page into 20? There are 19 posts though

If you really believe that the alternative "recoding" of SEE would take another 1-2 years, then i think you owe it to yourself and to your fans to try every possible solution and accept every bit of advice before you start down that path. And that means more than pinning all your hopes on the Ridder boys there. Even if narrowing down the problems takes you the next 6-12 months, it's better than starting over, and your mod will that much cleaner.

You still don't think I have tried every possible solution? To find a needle in a haystack there is only one solution - to go look for it. But what if the haystack is too big to handle? I wouldn't know where to look when the error reports don't tell you "squat" really... =/

I think you'll just have to pull your finger out and get on with it

Again - I didn't post this topic to start any arguments or to raise any conflicts or sides in thie matter. (I'm speaking of the thread now, not this post in particular). This topic should not be the cause of anyone being pist or annyed. It's a simple fact that SEE has a major problem and we can't seem to solve it. I don't understand why this should be a reason to start throwing words at eachother... which bring me to the quote above ^^ The smiley aside, please don't tell anyone to get their finger out of anything... It's very patronizing.

Anyways - this topic has served it's cause, and beyond (in the wrong direction), so I rather we all just let it rest so we won't have to close it (that would be... so dramatical I assume ). I don't want anyone to take any sides in this matter. Just stop bashing eachother and preferably me/us thanks. It was never intended that way. I pardon the emotional outbursts of some fans, but I'm sure they weren't meant dead serious anyways. Nor was my initial post. One of the biggest mods for BFME2 is halted and perhaps crippled for ever - that is a big matter of somewhat emotional touch. Hence the post. But it is nothing more than just that so let's not make this ruin our day/week/month/year, life or whatever We'll see what the future holds, and in the mean time, we'll probably go on contemplating, practising, testing, building assets, and discuss what happens next...

Thanks to all who left constructive ideas and suggestions though =)
Laterzzz...

[Emperor of the East]

That's disappointing. I was really looking forward to further canonical accuracy. I was also looking forward to annihilating Gondor- and Dale-based enemies with an army of elite archers, pikemen, cavalry, and chariots; all of it Rhûnic.

But oh well, that's life. Not perfect. I am optomistic, so of course I can always turn to RJ mod.

[Nazgûl]

Yeah, RJ is defenitely an option IMO. Also RC and Edain (might wanna learn german though)

[NewErr]

Or .. you can wait till SEE explodes.

Edited by Valaquenta10, 23 November 2010 - 01:13 PM.

[khamulrulz]

finally, on this page there were some positive comments, and post #64 from naz in particular was encouraging for us fans who are just waiting in the balance. I know it may be hard to find inspiration amongst all of this squabbling, but I'm behind all of you guys on the team, and I hope you know that there are quite a few of us fans that would like nothing more than to see SEE (hehe, see SEE) develop into a fully-fledged mod. It is heartbreaking to come so close yet so far to playing with the new uruk models, the new goblin heroes, and evil men faction, etc, but especially with the cooperation of the talented RC guys I think this mod can really continue to grow and exceed the expectations we had for 4.7. Time wise, I have no problem with waiting a couple years. After all, the people that have stuck with BFME2 after all these years are certainly playing it just for the mods. We can wait another year or two.

[_Haldir_]

Umm, a few things before i go to bed..

The fuzz is as always mostly due to the lack of chemistry between me and some people, mostly one. The veterans of these forums have seen us clash before, maaany times, and much worse than this. We simply don't interact - that's all And as an old man I can tell you that it's just a normal part of life, no biggie =)

I was more referring to your first post than anything

I'm not that fond of these constant claims of me ignoring help? Telling somone to "try again", "find the bugs", "don't give up", isn't help... it's more of encouragement if anything...

..I have tried every possible way I can think of, including most of what you all suggest - beleive it or not. But my skills don't cover the effort needed for all possible solutions. And if Sûl can't set up his own work to function with WB, my hopes of solving it is rather flat on the ground.

When i say "you", i'm referring to the SEE team which is directed by you. And i was just trying to help narrow down some solutions that you could look into (if you hadn't already). Sorry if you'd already tried those, but it didn't seem like you had, based on comments in this thread and the other help topic.

Yes it is indeed a complex problem. Thus we have this topic, that is - once again - NOT a cry for help, but a statement of where we are = stuck. The WB topic is 2 years old yes, but I fail to see how you turn 1 page into 20? There are 19 posts though

We all realise this isn't a cry for help. Everyone is simply offering help because you are stuck. When people see a post that reads "this might be the day that eventually lead to the complete collapse and death of the S.E.E. mod", they aren't going to ignore it when there could be some solutions.

And i was referring to 20 pages of topics in the BFME Worldbuilder section

You still don't think I have tried every possible solution? To find a needle in a haystack there is only one solution - to go look for it. But what if the haystack is too big to handle? I wouldn't know where to look when the error reports don't tell you "squat" really... =/

Well again, it's about making that haystack as small as possible. The error report told you which file was causing the crash, that seems like a pretty good start. And if you keep testing when putting together a dummy mod, then that should narrow it down a lot too

Again - I didn't post this topic to start any arguments or to raise any conflicts or sides in thie matter. (I'm speaking of the thread now, not this post in particular). This topic should not be the cause of anyone being pist or annyed. It's a simple fact that SEE has a major problem and we can't seem to solve it. I don't understand why this should be a reason to start throwing words at eachother... which bring me to the quote above ^^ The smiley aside, please don't tell anyone to get their finger out of anything... It's very patronizing.

Sorry if that was a bit patronising. I suppose it's not really as much of an insult where i am. It was meant more like a "get it done" or "take a deep breath" type of thing.

Edited by _Haldir_, 23 November 2010 - 02:08 PM.

[Nazgûl]

Ok, thanks for the explanation =)
I hope the new year brings a positive conclusion to this. We'll see (no not SEE)

[Archon]

Hey Naz & Co,
Haven't been on in FOREVER but I saw this and had to post. Always loved the SEE mod, even though I don't play BFME2 much anymore, and I hope y'all can find a solution and fix this nasty WB bug. It seems like if you can successfully recode, you might actually end up with a cleaner, less frayed-at-the-edges mod, but I know that is probably a lot of work.
Still even if you can't find a solution we'll always have 4.5 and (at the risk of waxing nostalgic) the memories of what could have happened...
But anyways, best of luck whatever happens.

[Nazgûl]

Hey dude, and thanks We'll see what we can come up with. Most likely not until after new years though...

Btw, you might wanna put those banners UNDER eachother instead of NEXT to eachother, so that we don't have to scroll sideways to see them

[yams in a can]

Matias, you are being very rude towards Nazgul. I am frankly fine with SEE as of now. 4.7 seems more like a $20 bill that I would find on the street, rather than the $20 I would need to pay someone back :/.

If it's that bad of an issue Nazgul, its that bad of an issue. If you can fix it, that would be great. SEE is frankly, a giant mod. Most mods I have seen, that are on the quality of this mod, have a team of many people. You have gone from 1-6 people in your time at any time. It is your mod, as it has always been :/.

such as running two websites with thousands of users, managing work as head of security, and organizing the community at home, as president of 80 households.

Dude... bad ass...

[Nazgûl]

Hehe well, at least I'm somewhat busy I guess

[Mathijs]

Matias, you are being very rude towards Nazgul.