853 replies to this topic

[Protozoan]

 

 

USA maybe. Scorpion Cell isn't. Scorpion Cell is the most threating if it comes to rush.

 

Ummm...Borillos loaded with pyros and ivans?

 

I think that the 500 gold the chrono miner deposits is a bit 2 low when compared with Ghost and War one.

 

 

Your forgetting the War & Ghost Miners spend half their time travelling back. For Chrono Miners its just 1 trip. Allies also have the ore purifier which further increases the pay of refined ore.

 

 

Depends on the map though really, a lot of 2 player maps have the ore field right next to your base so there is no hassle for the ore miners to drive to and from the ore field, which makes the 1 trip thing kind of redundant.

 

EDIT: But then it gets better for the Allies if there is an ore field further away after the initial one I suppose.

Edited by Protozoan, 17 January 2014 - 02:11 AM.

[Atomic_Noodles]

The distance still takes some time. Unless your implying the Ore is always right in front of the refinery...

[Protozoan]

The distance still takes some time. Unless you're implying the Ore is always right in front of the refinery...

 

Like a few seconds usually, lol

 

EDIT: I don't mean always, but there a good chunk of maps where the ore field is right next to your base so you can just place the refinery right near it, and then the chrono-back-to-refinery thing is redundant, but I think it works out for the Allies later on if there are other ore fields on the map, just further away from the base. But if not.

 

 

Allies would be somewhat disadvantaged.

Edited by Protozoan, 17 January 2014 - 02:46 AM.

[Atomic_Noodles]

The Miner turning around,navigating itself through the base, adjusting itself so its in the right position when its about to drop the ore also takes account into the time.

 

You only complained of this now? Where were you 12 years ago when RA2/YR got released then... Back then Chrono Miners were fine.

[Protozoan]

The Miner turning around,navigating itself through the base, adjusting itself so its in the right position when its about to drop the ore also takes account into the time.

 

You only complained of this now? Where were you 12 years ago when RA2/YR got released then... Back then Chrono Miners were fine.

 

12 years ago I would be five years old :>

 

I never played any C&C online til' Mental Omega

[Abood]

 

 

 

USA maybe. Scorpion Cell isn't. Scorpion Cell is the most threating if it comes to rush.

 

Ummm...Borillos loaded with pyros and ivans?

 

I think that the 500 gold the chrono miner deposits is a bit 2 low when compared with Ghost and War one.

 

 

Your forgetting the War & Ghost Miners spend half their time travelling back. For Chrono Miners its just 1 trip. Allies also have the ore purifier which further increases the pay of refined ore.

 

 

Depends on the map though really, a lot of 2 player maps have the ore field right next to your base so there is no hassle for the ore miners to drive to and from the ore field, which makes the 1 trip thing kind of redundant.

 

EDIT: But then it gets better for the Allies if there is an ore field further away after the initial one I suppose.

 

Uhh, actually I thought there was no difference in mining rate for allied and soviet miners.

 

For example: let's say there's an ore field 1 minute away from the refinery.

Disregarding the actual mining time (which is the same for both, I believe):

 

War miner would take 1 minute going, and 1 minute coming back. It can carry 1000 gold. So; 1000/2 = 500 gold per minute.

Chrono miner would take 1 minute going, and would chrono-shift back. It carries 500 gold. 500/1 = 500 gold per minute.

 

For a 2 minute away ore field:yay ctrl+c & ctrl+v

War miner would take 2 minutes going, and 2 minutes coming back. It can carry 1000 gold. So; 1000/4 = 250 gold per minute.

Chrono miner would take 2 minutes going, and would chrono-shift back. It carries 500 gold. 500/2 = 250 gold per minute.

 

Doesn't matter how far away the ore is.

 

So rates are the same. Now, War miner has piss-weak machinegun, and Chrono miner can teleport to safety from any (non-emp) threat. Yeah...

 

 

To avoid a double post:

 

I'm feeling that the three factions perform differently against each other.

I feel that, in general,

Soviets (Overwhelming force) are efficient vs Allies

Epsilon (Mind control; hit & run) is efficient vs Soviets

Allies (Well rounded; no glaring weaknesses) are efficient vs Epsilon

 

Now, this could be a good thing or a bad thing, but that's what I'm getting from the current apparent balancing plan.

I just want to urge people to try the different major factions, and not restrict themselves to Allies, soviets, and epsilon. Simply because that's how the game is designed. For example, many people complain about China. Do you have an idea how much mind-control and chaos can ruin their day?

 

I'm just saying don't be so quick to judge something as overpowered/underpowered without fully exploring all the possibilities.

Edited by Abood, 17 January 2014 - 11:10 AM.

[X1Destroy]

*Try to mind control a Nuwa with an Adept.
The Nuwa shoot the Adept before the capture*

Well, that's why.

And IMO, if that was the case, then how come most people only play as Russia and China? It should have been random instead which is not the case. They're too strong and easy to play, that's why.

And what about blue on blue match? Russia VS LC VS China then? If not OP, then what?

 

Edited by X1Destroy, 17 January 2014 - 12:00 PM.

[Graion Dilach]

Uhh, actually I thought there was no difference in mining rate for allied and soviet miners.

[...]

Disregarding the actual mining time (which is the same for both, I believe)

Your logic is failing there. You're actually right that mining rate is shared between miners, but War Miner has twice as the capacity as Chrono Miner. So mining time of the War Miner takes twice as much time as Chrono Miner.

[lovalmidas]

The rate of ore going into the miners is constant. So War Miners take twice the time to get its full load of credits as Chrono Miners. So the extra time the War Miner takes to travel back to its base is not compensated economically.

EDIT: Actually, it is compensated... Chrono Miners need to make TWO trips to the ore field to get the same amount of cash as War Miners making ONE trip to the ore field and ONE trip back. WW, you are a sly one.

And I do not really see Allies being disadvantaged in the economic front. On the contrary, they seem to rake in credits faster than the Soviets (have not checked Epsilon, but my guess is that Allies will be faster too), at least with an ore field close to the base.

Edited by lovalmidas, 17 January 2014 - 01:01 PM.

[Black/Brunez]

 (have not checked Epsilon, but my guess is that Allies will be faster too)

 

Ghost Miners collect ore as fast as a War Miner. Same speed and same capacity (yeah, I tested this).

[Abood]

 

Uhh, actually I thought there was no difference in mining rate for allied and soviet miners.

[...]

Disregarding the actual mining time (which is the same for both, I believe)

Your logic is failing there. You're actually right that mining rate is shared between miners, but War Miner has twice as the capacity as Chrono Miner. So mining time of the War Miner takes twice as much time as Chrono Miner.

 

But the chrono miner has to fill itself twice as many times to harvest the same amount of ore.

Fine, let's do that again, counting the time it takes to fill the miner.

 

Assume ore field is 40 seconds away, and the time it takes to harvest 500 ore is 10 seconds.

War miner: 40 seconds to the field, 10 + 10 seconds to fill its 1000 ore capacity, and 40 seconds return. 1000 ore/ 100 seconds = 10 ore/sec.
Chrono miner: 40 seconds to the field, 10 seconds to fill its 500 ore capacity, and chronoshift back. 500 ore/50 seconds = 10 ore/sec.

 

Now, the only difference is that the chrono miner has to go through the unloading animation twice as many times as the War miner, but I think that hardly counts.

 

And yes, the ability to teleport your miner to safety definitely gives the Allies an edge over the Soviets in economy.

 

Honestly, I think the chrono miner should require some time to 'charge' before it chronoshifts. I mean normally to transport vehicles the chronosphere needs time to charge. Or, you could make it unable to chronoshift when it's damaged beyond a certain point. The best solution, I think, would be just to give the War miner an edge that puts it on par with the Chrono and Ghost miners.

Edited by Abood, 17 January 2014 - 04:39 PM.

[mevitar]

*Try to mind control a Nuwa with an Adept.
The Nuwa shoot the Adept before the capture*

You only need to get the right timing and not send Adepts clustered into an approaching wall of Nuwas (if you do that, of course you will lose them). China has a lot of problems dealing with Adepts/Elites if they're used correctly, because they lack a long-range anti-infantry. Also, if you send a group of Brutes on Nuwas, the Brutes might die in the end, but Nuwas will at least heavily damage eachother (but if Brutes deal enough damage to them, Nuwas will die too). Add some Adepts/Elites when Nuwas are busy with Brutes and they're yours.

As an Epsilon player, i always had the most issues not with Nuwas, but with Centurion with Eradicators inside, since it can't be mind controlled, and Brutes can't be used unless you have a lot of them and surround the Centurion so it gets attacked from all sides.

Edited by mevitar, 17 January 2014 - 05:25 PM.

[Petya]

Ummm...Borillos loaded with pyros and ivans?

 

I think that the 500 gold the chrono miner deposits is a bit 2 low when compared with Ghost and War one.

 

I don't think you'll ever have the resources for that if you are playing against a decent Scorpion Cell player...

[X1Destroy]

 

*Try to mind control a Nuwa with an Adept.
The Nuwa shoot the Adept before the capture*

You only need to get the right timing and not send Adepts clustered into an approaching wall of Nuwas (if you do that, of course you will lose them). China has a lot of problems dealing with Adepts/Elites if they're used correctly, because they lack a long-range anti-infantry. Also, if you send a group of Brutes on Nuwas, the Brutes might die in the end, but Nuwas will at least heavily damage eachother (but if Brutes deal enough damage to them, Nuwas will die too). Add some Adepts/Elites when Nuwas are busy with Brutes and they're yours.

As an Epsilon player, i always had the most issues not with Nuwas, but with Centurion with Eradicators inside, since it can't be mind controlled, and Brutes can't be used unless you have a lot of them and surround the Centurion so it gets attacked from all sides.

 

True. However, it is not cost efficient to spam tons of Brutes and throw them at a group of Nuwas. Unless you can tech up fast and get a cloning vats.

The Centurion is very dangerous. It can make base defenses completely redundant. It's suck to be on the defensive side.

Last but not the least, suicidal Gyrocopter killing infantry units, including Adepts that took control of Nuwas. Not much of a problem when there are gattling tanks around, but bloody annoying when there isn't any.

Edited by X1Destroy, 17 January 2014 - 05:41 PM.

[Seth]

*Try to mind control a Nuwa with an Adept.
The Nuwa shoot the Adept before the capture*

As Epsilon you know that you can use the Driller-Adept combo and unload them behind Nuwas then use Shadow Ring on them?

Also you can use Weavers and Weaver Trap to create havoc, but is better if you manage to get your hands on Deviator.

Nuwas migh be the 'OMG CHINA STEAMROLLING' but still they have weakness to every faction.

As allies is easy just to micro a bit with the waypoint, teleport some legionnaries behind and is job done.

You can also use Zephyrs because they outrange the Nuwas, or just mass them and use the Zephyr Beacon. Aircraft Carriers work well too if there is water arround.

Soviets(As china) you can use the EMP and destroy them, as Russia mass Wolfhounds or you can just Hijack them.

Edited by Seth, 19 January 2014 - 08:53 PM.

[Walrus]

As Epsilon you know that you can use the Driller-Adept combo and unload them behind Nuwas then use Shadow Ring on them?

 

 

I have attempted this tactic several times, and succeeded a few times- I think it's a lot of fun! However, I think it's hard to pull off against a player of equal skill. It requires A LOT of attention- much more than the Chinese player requires to churn out Nuwas and roll them forward. 

 

I think Epsilon factions would have an easier time countering China if Nuwas had a bit less range or a bit of a slower turning rate- hint hint!

 

Of course, I believe Nuwas SHOULD be very hard to counter- they're very expensive, very slow units from a faction that takes a long time to get rolling. My feeling is that, in theory, near-unstoppable units are China's reward for surviving the "first strike" that every other faction should be able to beat them to.

I haven't played as China so I'm not claiming that that's how it works in practice, but my general feeling about MO is that balance could be improved if it were a bit harder to tech up quickly - it could be as simple as making radars and battle labs a bit more expensive. That might give lighter factions like SC and US the early-game advantage that they're "supposed" to have.

 

Of course, I'm a casual player who does everything a little slowly, and is trying to be proficient with SC. I might have a biased view of things!

Edited by Walrus, 20 January 2014 - 07:11 AM.

[lovalmidas]

AFAIK next patch will be all for nerfing tech rushers. The extent of the nerf may be revised as we go closer to release of patch, but yeah, it will be much more difficult to rely on Nuwa and Wolfhound spam next patch.

(inb4 China and Russia are underpowered next patch )

[Abood]

AFAIK next patch will be all for nerfing tech rushers. The extent of the nerf may be revised as we go closer to release of patch, but yeah, it will be much more difficult to rely on Nuwa and Wolfhound spam next patch.

(inb4 China and Russia are underpowered next patch )

Why wait for next patch?

China and Russia are already underpowered

 

Might I inquire how are you going about nerfing Wolfhounds and Nuwas? Also, is there anything else being nerfed/buffed?

 

Also, I agree with Walrus here; going through tiers should be slower, and if possible, less straightforward. I already feel no real difference between tiers.

[Seth]

I agree too, it should be slower to go trough tiers because at some point if you want to rush you will relay on T2 and T3 units, T1 becoming obsolete(not in case of Con and SC)

In any game that I played I never saw someone actually attacking with T1.

Eg: most go for Borillos with Ivans and Pyros as soviets ,Wolfhounds, and Nuwa + Sentinel + Centurion (and the Dragonfly for support).

Edited by Seth, 20 January 2014 - 02:14 PM.

[UprisingJC]

I agree too, it should be slower to go trough tiers because at some point if you want to rush you will relay on T2 and T3 units, T1 becoming obsolete(not in case of Con and SC)

In any game that I played I never saw someone actually attacking with T1.

Eg: most go for Borillos with Ivans and Pyros as soviets ,Wolfhounds, and Nuwa + Sentinel + Centurion (and the Dragonfly for support).

If the opponent attacks with T3 units, that's not supposed to be called a rush then.

 

Borillos with some Ivans and Pyros also takes some time, and it's long enough for you to prepare what you need to counter them.

The combo including dogs with T1 Tanks and even rocketeers if you're using an allied sub-faction is good enough to deal with Borillo + ivan/pyro combo.

Edited by UprisingJC, 20 January 2014 - 02:49 PM.