2870 replies to this topic

[lovalmidas]

...
It wasn't because you asked, its because you mentioned "Strategy Command", which doesn't exist.
...

(In the Beta Revision 2: Proposed Changelog thread)
...
(Big pictures)

There are corrections to the pictures: The Grand Cannon and the two Superweapons will also need the Mercury Center/Shield Uplink/Strategy Command as well as the Tech Center. Effectively, there are TWO building prerequisites to Tier 3 (true to the changelog). Tech rushers beware.

I'm sorry that I have confused everyone since the time of PsiCorps' Megatron. I did not intend to cast the wave of subliminal trolling over the unwitting.And no, before you start, Megatron is not in MO. Really. Now people is going to search for my post mentioning Megatron. :(

[MrFreeze777]

I'm sorry that I have confused everyone since the time of PsiCorps' Megatron. I did not intend to cast the wave of subliminal trolling over the unwitting.And no, before you start, Megatron is not in MO. Really. Now people is going to search for my post mentioning Megatron. :(

 

 

Subliminal trolling........... sounds legit. 

 

 

(In the Beta Revision 2: Proposed Changelog thread)
...
(Big pictures)

There are corrections to the pictures: The Grand Cannon and the two Superweapons will also need the Mercury Center/Shield Uplink/Robot Ops Command as well as the Tech Center. Effectively, there are TWO building prerequisites to Tier 3 (true to the changelog). Tech rushers beware.

 

Fixed it for ya. 

[mevitar]

I don't know, personally, I thought that spam to achieve guaranteed victory is...cheap? I don't know the exact word, it just bugging me.

Only because someone spams a unit doesn't mean they will win. Most units can be killed by getting enough cheap units that are good against them (Wolfhound spam = spam AA infantry, and they won't get near anymore).

BTW, if we add build limits to T3 units, people will spam T2 and T1 units instead, and again, the one with the most of them will win. If we add build limits to those too, they will spam base defenses and basecrawl to enemy base (or just make an unapproachable base with 20 Hammer Defenses protecting every entrance and good luck getting past that with limited numbers of units). Either way, problem persists, because people will still find something they can spam.

Or we could add a build limit to everything, people will just send everything they got mindlessly, and the games will resolve around "who can rebuild their army the fastest and kill the enemy before they rebuild theirs". In the end, the fastest player still wins.

And what build limits should we put on units anyway? 10 Nuwas? 20 Abramses? 6 Masterminds (because if used properly, just 6 of them could control all those 10 Nuwas and 20 Abramses)?

Edited by mevitar, 11 June 2014 - 10:28 AM.

[X1Destroy]

C&C isn't your real time tactics game where you can only use small groups of units, it's about massive battles and steamrolling is a legit and proper strategy.

The "who can rebuild their army the fastest and kill the enemy before they rebuild theirs" thing is a common thing with games these days, and they're fucking boring.

Edited by X1Destroy, 11 June 2014 - 10:23 AM.

[Graion Dilach]

Buildlimiting all entire high tiers is the perfect way to turn games into stalemates.

[Martinoz]

To make a build limit, units should be really special like Centurion or Irkalla. And making more "epic" units with build limits would make the game too "hero/special" unit oriented.

[mevitar]

C&C isn't your real time tactics game where you can only use small groups of units, it's about massive battles and steamrolling is a legit and proper strategy.

Apparently i play different games, because for me, most of the time it resolves around small groups of units, where you have to micro, make quick decisions, and remain cost efficient at the same time. If steamrolling defines a C&C game, then YR, RA2, TS, even RA1, never were C&C games, because rushes, microing and real time tactics work there too (and will work in any RTS game, unless they have some arbitrary rules like "20 minute imminity" to force the players to build up before attacking, their low tier units are completely useles, or all of their units are slow moving tanks that don't allow any harassment and hit'n'run).

Edited by mevitar, 11 June 2014 - 11:23 AM.

[X1Destroy]

 

C&C isn't your real time tactics game where you can only use small groups of units, it's about massive battles and steamrolling is a legit and proper strategy.

Apparently i play different games, because for me, most of the time it resolves around small groups of units, where you have to micro, make quick decisions, and remain cost efficient at the same time. If steamrolling defines a C&C game, then YR, RA2, TS, even RA1, never were C&C games, because rushes, microing and real time tactics work there too (and will work in any RTS game, unless they have some arbitrary rules like "20 minute imminity" to force the players to build up before attacking, their low tier units are completely useles, or all of their units are slow moving tanks that don't allow any harassment and hit'n'run).

 

No one said that these tactics don't work. I meant that C&C weren't just about "click faster, kill more and try not to lose your stuffs" unlike those games.

Most of the times, 2vs1 isn't possible in those games for obvious reasons.

If the money problem is removed, then don't ever expect spam tactics to work with buildlimits.

Overwhelming numbers help against skilled and advanced stuffs. If that is removed then not a damnthing can stop a player who can micro like crazy to shit in his base and repel all attacker's forces with his owned ones. Unless it's 2vs1 or more.

Also, China in Generals is a faction that exist for the sole purpose of spamming. If one doesn't spam because of such trivia things like "cheap win" then LOL, just lose. Simple.
 

Edited by X1Destroy, 11 June 2014 - 12:37 PM.

[Zenothist]

Speeder, is it ok if all heroes can use in other games like arcade game or in battle arena game on psp or computer with some new attacks and new special ability?

 

The game engine doesn't support that, sorry!

 

How about adding build limits to all units and infantries for tier 2 and 3?

 

The limit probably about 20 for tier 2 and 10 for tier 3? This is so that players will no longer use spam strategy, and will need to send out different kind of unit types, instead of just one kind.

 

Or spam strategy is not a problem...? It seems to me it's a problem, from some ppl complaining how players still can spam Wolfhounds/Nuwas/ThorGunship for almost guaranteed victory.

 

An interesting solution, but not unheard of. Many RTS's have a build limit for all units. For instance Starcraft or Age of Empires. 

 

However, C&C games are (were?) unique in the fact that they barely have any build limits for units. Being able to smash huge amounts of units against each other makes up a large part of the appeal the games have in contrast to their counterparts in my opinion.

 

Having build limits is really something we only do in cases where it is extremely important to have it for balance reasons (Centurion, Irkalla, heroes). In all other cases, we'd rather try to balance the unit out and make it counterable, even in large numbers.

 

 

Edit: wow, I just got ninja'd big time!

Edited by Zenothist, 11 June 2014 - 03:42 PM.

[Petya]

But an Age of Empires game works differently. Let's see Age of Mythology for an example. The population really restricts what the army should consist of. Each unit is good against something, for example Slinger receives bonus damage against archer type enemies, while Axemen receives bonus damage against melee units. One problem with this is that the player can easily win by spamming the countering units, therefore the enemy really can't do much if they can't use counter units in early game (Greeks don't have counter units in the early game).

 

If one can't counter spams, that can only mean that he/she has poor economy or didn't pay attention to the production. C&C games aren't just about ""click faster, kill more and try not to lose your stuffs"", it is vital to keep up the production. If somebody has more than 10k all the time, then that can mean two things: the player has ultimately good economy, which I doubt in most of the cases or the individual doesn't focus on production that much. It is also important to have a diverse army, because if you spam just Borillos for example, then your opponent will focus on building walls and anti-armor tanks.

 

Restricting the number of all units would be dumb and it would cause balance problems. Let's just say that all of the players can't build more than 10 T3 MBTs and here comes the twist: factions which don't have very good T3 MBT will have major disadvantage at T3. It's easy to say that 10 Nuwa Cannons would decimate 10 Abrams Tanks.

[Graion Dilach]

Zeno, popcap is NOT buildlimiting. Popcap is popcap, which means you can assemble within the limit it brings, not fixing each u8nit, which is what buildlimit does. While at first glampse, they seem similar the exact effect is completely opposite (popcap is also a way to make sure the game doesn't slow down to a crawl actually )

[Solais]

 

C&C isn't your real time tactics game where you can only use small groups of units, it's about massive battles and steamrolling is a legit and proper strategy.

Apparently i play different games, because for me, most of the time it resolves around small groups of units, where you have to micro, make quick decisions, and remain cost efficient at the same time. If steamrolling defines a C&C game, then YR, RA2, TS, even RA1, never were C&C games, because rushes, microing and real time tactics work there too (and will work in any RTS game, unless they have some arbitrary rules like "20 minute imminity" to force the players to build up before attacking, their low tier units are completely useles, or all of their units are slow moving tanks that don't allow any harassment and hit'n'run).

 

 

 

Wait, micro-based, really? Basically everyone I know describes the whole C&C series as the "tank-spam" RTS, where you never have to care about micro, just your inflow of money and how many Mammoth/Apocalypse Tanks can you churn out. And that's also what the campaign was mostly about in every C&C game too.

 

It's the Blizzard RTS games that are described to be micro-focused, while C&C was always the macro-focused one.

Edited by Solais, 12 June 2014 - 06:47 AM.

[Martinoz]

Macro focused?? With 1 queue available?

[Atomic_Noodles]

The only ones that sorta increased the MM factor was when Tib Wars came and gave units secondary ability switching. RA3 pulls out ability switching as a needed skill.

[mevitar]

Wait, micro-based, really? Basically everyone I know describes the whole C&C series as the "tank-spam" RTS, where you never have to care about micro, just your inflow of money and how many Mammoth/Apocalypse Tanks can you churn out.

As long as micro is allowed, there will be people that will do it and win with it. And in no CnC microing was dissalowed (even RA1 had Tanya, that could blow up whole base alone if you sneak her in!).

RA2 units that reward good micro:
SEAL, Tanya, Harrier/Black Eagle (the enemy has AA units or defenses on your path? just go around them), Spy, Psi Corp Troopers, Demo Trucks (and don't forget about YR's Magnetron, which might be the most micro rewarding unit a CnC game ever had). What most people choose to do instead? Spam tanks. Even if one SEAL or Tanya can blow up an entire base, they still choose to spam tanks. This says more about how people prefer to play, not how the game can be played.

Contrary to people's opinion, StarCraft also has its own share of turtlers and steamrollers, otherwise there would be noone to complain how turtling or amassing one type of unit is OP and should be disallowed. The real difference is a completely different economy model (where you have to constantly watch over how many workers gather resources) and easier micro (thanks to hotkeys tied to special abilities, but that's something CnC3 also has, and yet many people still choose to play it by spamming tanks).

Edited by mevitar, 12 June 2014 - 12:09 PM.

[Divine]

Vanilla RA2 had tank spamming because tier 1 tanks were lightning fast, and devastating against buildings. If you take a closer look at C&C games, spamming units with great speed and firepower is always a winning strategy. Orca Bombers, Banshees, Cyborg Reapers in TS, MBTs in RA2, Rocket Buggies in Generals.... C&C3 somewhat fixed this tho. Prople will spam tanks instead of sending Tanya because a well placed prism tower can kill her, (and she is t3), while nothing can stop a tank spam but counter-spam.

[Martinoz]

Rocket Buggies in Generals....

IDK anyone who spammed Rocket Buggies like a crazy to win, especially against Granger or Shin Fai. Also pure MBTs weren't a popular choice of top level in RA2, Iraq mirrors with Rhino + Desolator spam was normal.

[Divine]

 

Rocket Buggies in Generals....

IDK anyone who spammed Rocket Buggies like a crazy to win, especially against Granger or Shin Fai. Also pure MBTs weren't a popular choice of top level in RA2, Iraq mirrors with Rhino + Desolator spam was normal.

 

Against granger it was actualy Quad cannon + rocket buggies. In vanilla ZH Granger had no tanks, so countering quad cannons (especialy salvaged, elite ones) was quite hard for him. Shin Fai, on the other hand, had only Migs and Assult Helixes that were capable of chasing down the buggies, once more, a few quad cannons solved that problem (and any infantry problems aswell).

[X1Destroy]

ZH?

Missile Defenders in Humvees say hello.
And......Aurora Alpha, King raptor......Unless you are Fai and have a large spam of Minigunners.


 

Edited by X1Destroy, 12 June 2014 - 02:27 PM.

[Divine]

ZH?

Missile Defenders in Humvees say hello.
And......Aurora Alpha, King raptor......Unless you are Fai and have a large spam of Minigunners.


 

Well, hummers with missile defenders are indeed problem, but king raptor can take out only one buggy / quad before getting torn to pieces. Aurora Alpha is a bit tricky tho, but it can be tricked witha GPS scrambler, if you can see which of your units is about to get bombed, just cloak it, the Aurora loses its sight on the target, slows down to cruise speed, and gets blown off the sky. Also, airfields are fragile, if you can ambush them with the buggies, Granger will have a hard time at retaliating, if he is capable of doing so. What were realy problematic tho were stealth commanches flanking the formation and unleashing rocket pods on the buggies, but I guess radar vans can fix it.

 

I have also tought of some random stuff:

 

Healer

-Unique to PsiCorps

-tier 2 infantry

-Primary: infantry healing. Not in bursts like the allied medic does, but at a steady rate.

-Secondary: sacrifice. "deploy" the healer to activate. The healer will use all her physical and mental power to give an armor and speed boost to nearby friendly infantry, but will die in the process. 

-Perhaps she should be levitating?

 

Healers are a special division of Epsilon infantry trained to move quickly around the battlefield and use the power of their minds to heal friendly infantry, or give them the edge over the enemy at the greatest cost.

 

Pandora Battery

-Since Pandora Hub will be renamed to Research junction, I guess the name is all right

-Unique to PsiCorps

-Replaces the Antares Battery

-Fires a projectile similar to the Resheph's

 

The Pandora Battery is a stationary version of the Resheph sub's psychic weapon, usualy used to defend PsiCorps bases.

 

Mindworm

-Replaces Dream Weaver for the PsiCorps

-It should be a mind controll parasite usable only against enemy infantry

 

PsiCorps proselytes were unsatisfied with Dream Weavers, as they found out that the lumbering blobs of Terminus gas did not fit the PsiCorps doctrine that is based on tactical mobility, and siezing enemy units. With assistance from the Headquarters, an other genetic aberration was made: the Mindworm is a quick, worm like parasite capable of attaching itself to human's spines, and thus taking controll of their hosts. Animals, and humans that have a strong enough will to resist mind controll have no problem dealing with the parasites tho.

 

Juggernaut

-Unique to PsiCorps

-tier 2 or 3 siege infantry

-perhaps it should be levitating?

-kind of a medium range, weak artillery unit. Much like the Siege Cadre, I guess.

-should fire miniature Resheph-balls with his mind.

-its shots can be shot down by AA.

 

Juggernauts are amongst the strongest psychics in the ranks of Epsilon, but instead of mind controll, they channel their mental power into destructive balls of psychic energy. Reports indicate that these balls are wery similar to those fired by Resheph submarines, however, they are much smaller, and less powerfull.

Edited by Divine, 12 June 2014 - 04:11 PM.