CLAlstar

He never was a dev. Tester at best.

The core unit in the Epsilon arsenal is the Brute whether you like it or not, Cloning Vats enables the player to spam them, so in lategame the Epsilon player is going to rely on infantry (Brute) spam a lot.

Brute is good as long as there is no advanced anti-infantry in the game. Hint hint. There is plenty of that. They can be used in main taskforces but you are better off with adept/archer.

Currently Scorpion Cell lategame relies on Tyrants, which of course aren't particularly strong head on, but are really devastating if they pop up in one's base. 5 of them are enough to take out core structures in a matter of seconds. With vehicle cloning you would need to queue 2 or 3 of them, because of the duplication, hence such attacks would become way more frequent.  Scorpion Cell is spammy indeed, but their armored units were intended to lose head on, that's why

Currently SC relies on first 3 minutes of the game, which decide if you should keep on playing the game or just surrender. If you cant harras or map contains ez to defend chokepoints, you are as good as dead.

Techrush is the greatest answer to cell right now.

Also, once again you ignore the "affects only specific units" part of dupe factory

 

Speaking of which: Scorpion Cell is an early game oriented faction with a midgame powerspike, which falls off lategame. What I don't understand is that why you want to make their lategame strong, when it's not as bad as one would think, and it would contradict Scorpion Cell's intended playstyle, because they weren't supposed to be as powerful lategame as China for example, whose early and midgame are exceptionally bad.

There is no such thing as midgame powerspike. Your chances drasticly lower with each second. Why would we make it lategame stronger? Gee, maybe so they can actually stand on their own without the need of OPAF Tyrants and Malver debuff.

>china early and midgame are bad

I'll leave no comment on that.

Shortly: no vehicle cloning for Scorpion Cell

You're not dev. Thankfully. Stop telling yourself and others otherwise.

Scorpion Cell's lategame isn't even close to weak, it's mediocre at best due to Malver.

Yes, and that the problem. If you cant do shit because you lack one unit (that is easy to kill, you just need detector) then it is a problem.

We are thinking of new ways to make Scorpion Cell be able to pull off outplays lategame, but in terms of raw power it won't be near as good as China for example.

It doesnt have to be as good, it could just stay at "can compete with" level.

It doesn't make you sense, but it's been like that since the dawn of MO3.0 and it worked. Each have their own playstyles and admittedly Epsilon among the original 3 had a big learning curve, with Scorpion Cell requiring the most mechanical skills, which of course was expectable from a faction which is both micro and macro intensive. If we are to make each faction equal in power, we might as well mirror everything, the result will be a dull game.

I'm gonna laugh at the "learning curve" part while recalling every single match vs psicorps/HQ that ended up with hero rush and mass unbeatable brutes. Plus masterminds in case of psicorps. No SC examples becasue you died before getting there.

Regarding vehicle cloning for Scorpion Cell I'll be short and simple: there is no need for secondary production booster for a faction, which already pumps out units really fast. Epsilon Infantry is priced according to Cloning Vats with the exception of some infantries, whose base value is the same as other sides (Engineer). What you are saying not only has its technical limitations (hence it wasn't done in the case of cloning vats), but vehicle cloning, if implemented would require global adjustments, because having 2 Irkallas would be over the top for example and again, it's not going make SC lategame any more stronger.

Once again lack of proper reading skills. I bet you didnt even tried Redres to find out whats the deal. You are in no place to speak about limitations here.

Since this discussion has reached the "grab random sentences out of context" point, I don't see any reason to continue it further from my part. Besides, we are arguing about a feature, which won't happen anyway as it was discussed a few times prior to this, and the conclusions were no.

 

However, it's hard to do justice in such questions, when one part of the community says that Scorpion Cell is okay, and Foehn is weak, and others say vice versa. If we are to listen to the loud minority all the time, the game would be a mess. Personally I feel that balance decisions based on forum suggestions usually ended without achieving anything, because then other part of the community started complaining, that it was overshot. And buffs, nerfs and reversions took toll on resources, because they need to be implemented and yeah, even the smallest nerf is capable of making a mission or missions broken. Maybe it's time to settle down with the balance the way it is. You can start your own mod if you aren't satisfied.

Once again, you are not dev. Regarding the balance part, some of opinions from all sides are considered. Sometimes it does not end well (hidden changes) but part of changes that both foreign and chinese community wanted went through.

In a massive TL'DR - Do not argue nor listen to Petya. The only idea of what is going on in game is from what other chat users write - he doesnt play pvp and lives in the past of pre 3.0 betas.

That usually happens because most of the Foehn infantry are vulnerable to magnetic weaponry.But hell,you don't realise that Haihead has the initial hiccups against them until they get Diverbees,which can blast them to Kingdom Come.And as to your statement that Marauders are a decent response to Megalodons,no it's actually Magnetrons.If you can get a few Raccoons near the damn thing,well GG Magnetron.Then all you need are Megalodons to finish them off.Irritators can keep things decidedly rough for PsiCorps.As for Gehennas,Teratorns,Buzzards and Shadrays can take care of them.

First of, i said that Magnetron is key unit. Which means you need some of them against foehn, like it or not. Marauders are response to Megalodons due to longer range, no-miss projectile and decent damage, Dont mix those two.

 

As to Wings of Coronia,why they could bait the Magnetrons with some Dracos and send in the Pteranodons.And Dybbuk Interceptors will fall to the ground after a good beating from some Alanqas,Buzzards and Teras.If Zorbfloaters could get close enough,why they would make life hell on earth for PsiCorps.

Let's be blunt: Nobody will make Dracos to do that. Draco is one of least used MBT's from all the games i have noticed, despite their actually amazing gimmick. You are better off with using Tarchias (not a joke). Another thing being, if you plan to just headbutt your enemy with Pteranodons, you may aswell put your white flag in - PsiCorps has 2 funky units that can handle them. Archers (which receive anti-air range bonus) and Libra herself, who can easily flyswat air units. Bonus points for Chimera cores because annoying enemy. I'll get to Gehennas later.

 

As for Last Bastion-they have it the hardest,but even then,setting up a Sweeper ambush can work wonders(Until stealth detection arrives)Mastodons don't exactly stand a chance against Magnetrons due to being outranged.But if Raccoons get close enough.....well.And as for MC,there's the Gharial.Viruses would do well to stay away from Giantsbanes,what with immoblizing enemies and being tanky.

The core unit in LB vs PsiCorps is exactly Gharial. I am not sure if they are immune to mags tho - somethign something key unit in matchups. Sweeper Ambush works only for the first time, which is a sad part.

"Gehennas tends to screw around, they can annoy the air blobs" I'd expect tier 3 AA to wreck the shit out of air blobs or at least put up a good fight, not just annoy them.

Welcome to the

Also known as "What makes Gehenna both annoying to use and annoying to enemy". That's right. Interceptor. Gehenna have the longest interception range (being 18) at cost of lack of splash and near inability to handle close combat threats. Do you know why Hailstorms are annoying to fight in stalemates? Because Hailhitters will slowly cool down your forces. In case of Gehenna(s, because you should have more than one) it's swarming enemy air untis every X seconds. You managed to deal with this bunch of interceptors? Here comes another batch. Alanqas can commit even bigger crime against those, which is accidental friendly fire - and thats the bonus gimmick. It's like having a Dybbuk Hive but with less range!

PsiCorps is a faction that greatly benefits from stalemates and enforcing engagements.

Alanqa is doing perfectly fine, esspecialy as its meant to be a guardian, not an assault anti-air - anything that attack from closer range will be shut down. Salamander and Irkalla are different cases - one is stolen tech and another is limited to 1.

Also, Alanqas specialize in removing blobs of air units - which makes it useful against things like mass rocketeers or people spamming helicopters.

Small note: Alanqas are immune to their own projectiles. Salamander chaos beam will cause them to attack other air units.

Ugh.
 

 

can the prism tower and shrike nest get +1 range. prism tower being outranged by infantry. INFANTRY! aka stalkers and so on. it needs slightly more range hardcore. shrike nests are the foehns only anti air defense building and they are being beaten up by quetzals i think they are called. it really makes factions like euro alliance and last bastion completely helpless to long range bombardments and prevents their defensive playstyles.

You expect Tier 2 defenses to win against Tier 3 (!) siege units. Stalkers are supposed to break down defenses, so there is no way this will be done. Not like that +1 range wont help them anyway - they will still be outranged. Regarding shirkes, they have problem with jets, but anything slower can get dispatched rather easily. Shrikes attacking Tareting Drones cannot be fixed, if thats what you mean.

BTW. There is only one unit that can outrange T2 defenses. Siege cadre. And let it stay that way.

Also, another fun fact that you may probably not realize: There is only one advanced (tier 3) anti air defensive structure. Its called Skyray. Therefopre yoru argument about X faction not having T3 aa defnse so we need buffs also is nothing but a dream.

Moving, on, we see this.

 

Wild idea ON/ And why don't we have stolen tech AND infantry? At least 4 - no matter what subfaction are you playing as, let's say if you infiltrate allieds, you get the prism hoplite. /Wild idea OFF.
Since we have to infiltrate 2 buildings, and the anti-infiltration has been improved as I can see. It would be too OP in PvE?

Find a person capable of making 16 new infantry SHP and then you may convince Speeder. With massive push on *may*

Its way easier to make voxels than to make infantry.

 

JackoDerp: Every Faction gets some kind of lategame Anti-air stomper.

 

uh... what are they exactly? the late game AA stompers? i... dunno every one of em. theres some skystation thing for one of the foehn factions. theres sodar arrays... apparently they help. you got urangu thingy. that flying thing which looks like some literal flying god that shoots giant waves of.... air stuffs? at enemies :O uh... i can't think of any others >_< besides aerial fortress irkalla, floating discs ( invaders ) and thats about it ._.OH AND gehenna platform thingies.

Literally every single faction in game have available T3 anti air unit. Aeroblaze, Thor, Blizzard, Wolfhound, (Flak) Catastrophe, Sentinel, Gehenna, Oxidizer, Collosi, Shadray, Alanqa, Giantsbane.

 

 

JackoDerp: Again, most of your problems about defenses being bad are fixed with making units.

 

we still dont have any T3 AA base defenses! the issue is mostly solved with units yea but units have flaws... same with defenses but its a pain tryin to heal units, the ground ones aren't so bad since ya got miner-mites which i think can heal up ground troops. but plenty of em ( especially some aircraft, I THINK! ) remain damaged unless they can self repair or land on an airfield or hit rank 3 veterancy. but still. its a good point.

1. Jacko is right in that case. If you mainly rely on defenses to stop enemy assault, you wont live long.
2. There is one T3 AA defense and thats all. Not to mention it sacrifices the splash for damage too.
3. All air units have self healing (beside rocketeers i think). Also you can park most of them near Soviet Cranes for repairs.

 

alright... since no one wants prism towers to so easily gain +1 range then how bout THIS!

all prism towers placed within 3 building range tiles around an mcv gain +1 range! THERE! then backline prism towers can now connect to ya frontline ones much more easily as well with them being currently T2 that should prevent people from mcv-prism tower rushing peoples bases and your default backline ones within a 3 building area range of ya mcv can get a small passive.

OR

 

when 5 or more prism towers are within a 3 building area range of each other then all gain +1 range that are within range of each other... well.. it could help create a moderate frontline defense and 5x1,000 is 5,000 i think so thats more than a large cost + having them all to be within a short build range of each other does make things more difficult. also take into consideration the moderate power drain of running 5 of em....

 

... Prisms do not require buffs. Also both of options you wrote are literally impossible.

 

I don't wanna play something i don't enjoy, hence why i stick the the huge PvE aspect of the game.

Yet you aregue with veterans of multiplayer regarding balance of game. Not like we are elitists, but we have seen more than simple "enemy spams right intop my defensive line", so i can clearly say - we have the experience and a lot of examples in mind.

 

>"also defensive factions have units designed to defend your base very well like Mirage Tanks, Mastodons etc"

 

we know. but as said before, you just expect us to use all of that. not that we dont want to use it. it just takes time/setup and we all play differently.

"we play differently" is not a valid arguement. There are basics for every faction in the game. Mirages are perfect defense untis, Mastodons are the moving healing walls for your units. Start using them instead of standing in one place with your skills.

- When deploying/un-deploying, 4 seconds of time is required. Within this time period, the G.I. is defenceless.

 

- The speed of the G.I. is slightly decreased by 1 speed point (or whatever).

>making calculations that do not help your case at all because 4 sec delpoy on GI's make them die to enemy infantry/units/anything while they are undeployed/undeploying

And here i thought that Kivz's ideas were the peak of intelligence. Sadly, you managed to beat him.

Your logic of "costs more = more damage" makes no sense aswell. Might aswell just make Charon Tank costs 20k credits, if some people know what i mean.


Back to point. Every infantry will lose to Kekframes if you decide to just amove your stuff into them or just wait and hope that your problems will solve themselves. You can perfectly fend off kekframes even with conscripts in early stages of game if you split them to minimalize the splash damage. Even WITH price calculus.

You're forgetting about one thing. Starcraft's engine is way more responsive. Also, Eureka and lack of mobility? Spinblades were buffed for a reason because people do not even bother using those. She can benefit greatly from those.

 

I'd suggest playing PF for a couple days in 1v1 against different people to get a feel for their weaknesses.

You know, i could have said this to everyone who had problems with Coronia. Thats almost exactly same scenario, amirite?

Oh wait, its not because coronia actually got nerfed without any goofy recompensations that made it broken again.

Despite the buffs, the Gehenna remains, and will always remain the worst tier 3 AA

I dare to disagree and claim that Gehenna is the top tier AA unit. It unusual mechanic is what makes it good -  It's a move into interception range and forget type of AA, that does not need to endanger itself like other T3 AA units to deal damage. First of all, the range of interceptor is 18 - enough to stay in the second or even third line and poke the flying enemies. Next thing, you mention lack of splash - while forgetting that the only AA splash that matters in epsi army is under HQ's banner.

Ofc, its easy to make Gehenna launch it interceptor by using Quetzals etc, but are you just going to watch and observe how D-I will pursuit the drone or retarget manually Gehennas to attack Quetzals? This is not something that only Gehennas suffer from - every other AA can be fooled like that.

 

When was the last time any of you have seen Gehenna Platforms being used at all?

I usually add 4 no matter what faction my enemy have. Unless he plays a s something that depends on air units, like Coronia - then i add at least 3x more of those. You also mention that it's easier to just spam Archers - and yes, obviously its easier! It's also way easier to lose them to enemy units when they try to shut down enemy air. You might be surprised what some of units in small numbers can do with infantry blobs.

Windbelt was removed because of balncing reasons. Very annying balance reasons. Imagine that you have a wall that doesnt actualy protects you from enemy shots. Or cannot be infiltrated. Or even better, chinese denying your entire power grid with single wallbuster. I personally prefer the Windtrap.

Got your back buddy.

DeathKitty:

So, in your book unit must be nerfed because enemy managed to get critical number of them after very long game because others let him do that? Thats a terrible reasoning.

 

"Cutting Pters' splash by half would make this unit almost useless and would cripple Coronia's presents tactics."- That's bad game design.

Reminder: for you every single unit with splash = bad unit design.

 

If removing a single units splash while compensating with other buffs (damage) cripples a unit/ a faction then that units is crap and that faction's tactics are cheese.

Are you sure you know the definition of cheese?

 

[disable fire on the move] 1.) It wont reduce anything. Pters will not have trouble shooting, b/c as air units THEY CAN STACK and this still doesn't solve the problem of being air mobile and having splash.

It would actually work fyi. What you wrote makes no sense whatsoever - the autotargeting allows player to just fly around enemy forces and pteranodons will auto attack whatever they have in range. Their stacking would make it worse for them.

 

[decrease speed] 2.) So whats the point? If you increase the speed to where it cant be kited, what do you accomplish? You just make the unit annoying to use, while still keeping it OP.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe the fact that they wont be able to easily disengage?

 

3.) Swordfish gets unstable AoE b/c UNLIKE THE PTERA, its not a flying, stacking units. You're trying to use Disney bucks at a Caesars palace. That unstable AoE will just become equally as cancer once critical mass is reached.

I'll leave this without comment because apparently you cant be pleased.

 

None of your changes stop spammed pteras from eventually countering their counters. Their HARD counter. All these do is delay crit mass a bit if that.

And you think your suggestion to remove the magikarp tendenceis out of ptera are the best? All you have said was "remove splash" while others wanted to make it easier to intercept them even when hit and running.They gotta be automaticly wrong in your book too, right?

But wait. Then comes this.

 

" Perhaps we should consider other forms of nerf to make it less versatile in combat."- How is the ptera a versatile unit? Cant hit air, sucks vs infantry, sucks vs buildings. Its not versatile, its too good at in niche roll: killing vehicles. You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Remove the splash, force the ptera to respect AA vehicles. Are you telling the WoC don't have the tools to deal with AA blob? Nano synced infantry, roadrunners, Harbinger, Eureka, Tarchia? What none of this works at all? My only response is: do you even do anything but spam pteras then? Do you even play the faction?

How is ptera NOT a versatile unit?

- Fast, can easily access most of map in short time

- 850hp armor class heavy, allows to tank most of threats

- splash damage

- designed to be capable of firing on the move

"Cant hit air" - Wow, its almost as if some of factions had an actual counters against them! Unless hounds, thors, alanqas and gehennas do not exist.

"sucks vs buildings" - their damage vs buildings seem like shit because its area of effect is reduced vs structures. Which makes single tile defenses best fare against them.

"Are you telling the WoC don't have the tools to deal with AA blob? Nano synced infantry, roadrunners, Harbinger, Eureka, Tarchia?" - Insert the "counter to your counter" cliche. RRers are nerfed already. Nobody uses Tarchia and Eureka.

"My only response is: do you even do anything but spam pteras then?" - No, because usually im not in position to safely spam masses of them and so cant my enemy and im playing mostly 1v1s lately since im kicked out of bigger games for not using my real name for sake of "we dont know you, you will lag"

"Do you even play the faction?" - Yes, since first day of beta access.

Oh, and regarding the "latin vs coronia" - Been there, done that, saw others doing that. JackoDerp and BlackSnow may have something to say about this.

TC:

 

Why it is ok for a faction to reach a point were counters stop working? Why this can't be addressed like previous spam problems were?

As if Coronia was the only one with that problem. Why not adress the fact that PsiCorps can reach the part of game where it can just a-move with all the brutes, archers and masterminds into enemy and win? How about mass Abrams spam of USA? Giant/Godsbane/KF/Mastodon of Last Bastion?

Regarding "why not spam X"? The main reason for which mass Wolfhound/Thor is not a thing is nonexistant/mediocre damage vs defenses. In 3.0 the main reason for russia popularity was the fact that hounds could just shred all defenses. And invader too can win upon reaching critical number, but they are more for utility than actual damage unlike other mentions.

Thors have splash. Wolfhounds have splash. Small, but noticeable vs air units.

*insert magikarp meme*

You must be new to china then, because i see her being used outside of centy very often. Inside Centy you cannot chain EMP so putting her inside lowers her efficiency to somewhere around 40% - because you cannot manually target with her and she will always attack same cluster of units unless the one in middle is destroyed.

That sounds a lot like the Sole Survivor mode of the original C&C.

 

...So, who's going to be the brave one to check out that dodgy AF link?

If you dont like this link then use mine, i copied the files to google drive because someone couldnt access the hosting site.
https://drive.google...syq7_Ndmm5buk4G