5129 replies to this topic

[Handepsilon]

actually 10 flak troopers are enough, iirc... which in comparison a Basilisk can mow down a group of them relatively quick

Edited by Handepsilon, 10 January 2017 - 12:24 PM.

[Divine]

actually 10 flak troopers are enough, iirc

If two Quetzals target the closest AA unit and attack at the same time, one of the drones usually gets through. If let's say, five Quetzals do it, then there's no way to stop the drones whatsoever, you have to kill the carriers themselves.

[Handepsilon]

Well in that case you can move away before the actual plasma hits.

A little bit unrelated but if you target something with quetzal close to the cliff, there's a chance that the bombardement hits the higher elevation rather than the actual target

[FELITH]

Why are you comparing tier 2 infantry to tier 1 infantry?

Also, with enough Anti Air, Quetzal drones can be shot down, rendering him useless if he's not almost at melee range

Bucause they have a same cost and both of them attack with AoE damage. It's easy to compare.

Edited by FELITH, 10 January 2017 - 12:41 PM.

[Handepsilon]

Well the one guy is also building destroyer, while the other is anti air.

I'd compare Pyro more on Huntress, really.

[Nicholas Chau]

Well in that case you can move away before the actual plasma hits.

A little bit unrelated but if you target something with quetzal close to the cliff, there's a chance that the bombardement hits the higher elevation rather than the actual target

yes the quetzals tend to do that in maps where the bases are situated in higher or lower elevation so it's necessary to use tarchia cannons also because of that

 

Well the one guy is also building destroyer, while the other is anti air.

I'd compare Pyro more on Huntress, really.

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAA.........

no way. huntresses are too strong already for their anti infantry role when compared to pyros; they need severe nerfs NOW

Edited by Nicholas Chau, 11 January 2017 - 12:32 PM.

[Admiral_Pit]

About the Quetzal thing, fighting a group of em is annoying to say the least.  Idk how non-Soviets deal with em (besides PC's Gehennas), but from my experience, I'm forced to pursue em with a group of Halftracks, and even that's difficult because they usually target the drones first, and depending on the map, getting to em is that much harder.

Edited by Admiral_Pit, 10 January 2017 - 01:17 PM.

[Divine]

About the Quetzal thing, fighting a group of em is annoying to say the least.  Idk how non-Soviets deal with em (besides PC's Gehennas), but from my experience, I'm forced to pursue em with a group of Halftracks, and even that's difficult because they usually target the drones first, and depending on the map, getting to em is that much harder.

PC's Gehennas are probably the worst against them. You can't trust them to auto-attack, because they'll go after the drones in a completely futile effort to stop them. Then the interceptor runs out of ammo very quickly, and it takes forever for it to reload. Meanwhile the Quetzals wreck half of your stuff. You need to outnumber the Quetzals at least 2 to 1 with Gehennas to effectively stop them before they do serious damage, needless to say that it's not very efficient. It's even worse against coronia, not only because of the Quetzal shield, but also because Alanquas can shoot down the Dybbuks easily. Chinese Sentinels on the other hand are probably the best.

Edited by Divine, 10 January 2017 - 03:20 PM.

[Admiral_Pit]

 

About the Quetzal thing, fighting a group of em is annoying to say the least.  Idk how non-Soviets deal with em (besides PC's Gehennas), but from my experience, I'm forced to pursue em with a group of Halftracks, and even that's difficult because they usually target the drones first, and depending on the map, getting to em is that much harder.

PC's Gehennas are probably the worst against them. You can't trust them to auto-attack, because they'll go after the drones in a completely futile effort to stop them. Then the interceptor runs out of ammo very quickly, and it takes forever for it to reload. Meanwhile the Quetzals wreck half of your stuff. You need to outnumber the Quetzals at least 2 to 1 with Gehennas to effectively stop them before they do serious damage, needless to say that it's not very efficient. It's even worse against coronia, not only because of the Quetzal shield, but also because Alanquas can shoot down the Dybbuks easily. Chinese Sentinels on the other hand are probably the best.

 

 

I don't know.  Sentinels are too slow to actually pursue Quetzals, and they sometimes shoot slow and weirdly after their first burst (do they use ammo mechanic now?).  It's why I force myself to mass halftracks just in case to chase.

Edited by Admiral_Pit, 10 January 2017 - 03:49 PM.

[JeagerEX12]

No need to complain about the Stormchild. I checked on MO Wiki and it said, it bears a resemblance to the real-life F-16 Fighting Falcon, but it has a full delta wing rather than a cropped delta wing like in the real life.

 

http://moapyr.wikia....wiki/Stormchild

https://en.wikipedia...Fighting_Falcon

[Handepsilon]

I checked on MO Wiki....

The very same one being talked about here? https://forums.revor...iki-discussion/

Anyway, I think the problem with Foehn is that they're supposedly limited in number, but if you get economy rolling plus with the Processor as it is now, you can pretty much ignore this notion and build troops rivaling the number Soviets can possibly muster.

I had this very controversial idea of putting hard limit on each of Foehn's non-robotic units, akin to Iron Guard for Soviet in case Reprocessor nerfing fails. But I'm pretty sure it's going to be shot down to all hell.

Edited by Handepsilon, 11 January 2017 - 02:08 PM.

[TeslaCruiser]

the amount of money you can get on mo maps over time allow foehn spam

[Divine]

 

I checked on MO Wiki....

The very same one being talked about here? https://forums.revor...iki-discussion/

Anyway, I think the problem with Foehn is that they're supposedly limited in number, but if you get economy rolling plus with the Processor as it is now, you can pretty much ignore this notion and build troops rivaling the number Soviets can possibly muster.

I had this very controversial idea of putting hard limit on each of Foehn's non-robotic units, akin to Iron Guard for Soviet in case Reprocessor nerfing fails. But I'm pretty sure it's going to be shot down to all hell.

 

Pop caps exist in many strategy games, but thankfully not in C&C. There can be other solutions tho. For example, the re-introduction of Ore Silos, and limiting Foehn's ability to hoard by giving them very small storage capacity. Or if Ares can do it, giving (some of) the Foehn units, especially loomed infantry, power requirement, similarly to how Laser Crusaders require power in Zero Hour. I think the second idea would be actually viable.

[mevitar]

Ore silos won't happen, because...
we already tried that.

[Handepsilon]

This is just a guess, but is Riot Shield actually Navy SEAL using shield and black attires, graphic wise?

[FELITH]

Oh, I forgot to suggest about this. The Arsonist, They aren't look like their cameo at all. please just recolor them.

[Nicholas Chau]

the amount of money you can get on mo maps over time allow foehn spam

all the more reason to change the reproccessor's abilities or nerf it to shit.

[Admiral_Pit]

Well, why not compare all 4 of of those secondary econ buildings to see what what we have?

 

-Allied Ore Purifier

Boosts Ore value by 20% when they're in refineries.  So as long as there's ore to gather this one will be useful, otherwise it'll just give money like an oil derrick.  I really don't see em often.

This is easily countered by denying their miners of gathering or destroying the building itself.

 

-Soviet Industrial Plant

Super useful and a necessity honestly.  Not only does it decrease the price of all Soviet vehicles, planes, and boats by 25% (Refineries too) and decreases their build time, but it also has the Gear Change ability, giving 3k res while deactivating the building and all factories for 60 game seconds (cooldown of 7:30).  The latter is great at stalemates so as long as you keep the building alive and power online.
This is countered by destroying the factories or the building itself, or delay the Gear Change by low power.

 

-Epsilon Cloning Vats

Well, I don't need to explain this one, do I?  Well to make it short, get two for one purchase of infantry (except heroes), so it can be considered that you pay full price for 1 infantry but get another for free.  Very useful since the faction does love its infantry... *glares at Epsilon* ...and it also gives you access to Viruses and Evolvers.

This is countered by destroying the building itself.

 

-Foehn Reprocessor

Gives money for units and buildings destroyed, with the money being 25% of the object's cost (like $350 for a non-Foehn Ore Miner ($1400)), and 50% from defeated heroes and special units.  Apparently this doesn't count if superweapons kill I think.  Also gives access to Devourer ability (hurts/kills infantry, heals Foehn troops).  Extremely useful when there's a lot of enemies that can be killed.

Even though we know it's obnoxious and OP in a way, the only ways to stop the money process is to place keep as many of your units alive as possible, keep destroying the building somehow if you can and make the Foehn starve in long games, or beat the Foehn fast enough somehow (or at least keep busting their Cyber/Cloud/Nanofiber buildings fast and thus their tech) to keep em from building it, even though they a way to bypass this by sending jackals with spies to steal money (if other players have any).

 

Still, I can think this can be quite OP in a way, especially when you think you're going to win, they stop your attacks and gain money, and finally make their comeback.  A slight reduction of the bounty amount would be nice honestly, or something different.  I know someone suggested that it actually gives you a little money for each of your troops/buildings destroyed, and it's an interesting idea.  It'd be like recycling.

 

 

Overall, I feel that all but the Allied one seem heavily useful.  Besides wanting a little nerf to the Foehn one, do you think the Allied one seems a bit underwhelming compared to the others?

Edited by Admiral_Pit, 12 January 2017 - 07:46 AM.

[X1Destroy]

The re-processor wouldn't be a problem if you give it to a faction that always fight with large casualties at close distance like Soviets. Foehn units are built around survivability so they won't need to replenish theirs forces as often as the others, and thus will always have spare money from killing the enemy. And all of that unused cashes would go into massive super late game spams. It needs a nerf, but how the things works should stay the same.

The Ore Purifier is definitely the least useful of the 4. It doesn't have anything that can contribute to the battle when the ore fields are empty and the miners stopped working. If giving it some sort of support powers is a no, then I believe a buff in its oil derick money generating should be sufficient. Allied do need more money since theirs units are also quite on the expensive side.

Edited by X1Destroy, 12 January 2017 - 08:21 AM.

[lovalmidas]

The Allied T3 economy is all-rounded. You may use the additional gains for any use, including defences.

 

The Soviets specialise their T3 economy on armour, while the Epsilon specialise theirs on infantry. The specialisation makes their effect seem stronger, because you can focus on those advantages.

 

The Allies, Soviets and Epsilon base their T3 economy on their ore input.

 

 - Allies gives your more ore.

 - Soviets lets you build more armor with the same ore.

 - Epsilon lets you train more infantry with the same ore.

 

Foehn is the only T3 economy currently to bypass the primary ore input and deliver an independent source of money. The Foehn's T3 economy is dependent on its firepower (and constantly attacking others). That is, it can be argued that Foehn's T3 is stronger because Foehn's armies are stronger.

 

It might be a good option to consider the balance of Foehn's firepower before adjusting the Reprocessor.