5129 replies to this topic

[Divine]

My guess is that there were some Raccoons there that you didn't notice.

[DarkEmblem]

 

About 5 zorbfloaters and around 3 knightframes killed my entire infantry and tank army. I had quite some gatling tanks but that didnt seem to handle it. In fact, none of the zorbfloaters died. He started spamming them, getting like 12 zorbfloaters. I thought viruses would be able to handle those but 8 viruses vs 12 zorbloaters didn't seem to do anything. In fact, none of them died. So both tanks and infantry doesn't work. The only thing that worked was malver since he instakilled them without having to worry about their regen. I also tried yuris, but since units keep attacking the unit they were already attacking when they are mindcontrolled, all my yuris died anyway.

 

Anything I can those?
For now it just seems like they need a regen nerf and vulnerablity against viruses.

 

But I probably did something wrong.

 

I hope.

 

Yeah, don't bother spamming infantry in the late game. Spam viruses if you need to pick off heroes or something, but otherwise you need to use underhanded tactics. Driller engi, early game stinger rush, spy rushing cloud piercer for Salamanders, abuse the heck out of underground units.

 

I found that going Adepts is a waste. Two of three Foehn monster tanks can't be mind-controlled. Two of three Foehn T2 units can't be mind-controlled. Foehn infantry don't kill other Foehn infantry easily, unless its Zorbfloaters or Huntresses I suppose, but good luck microing your adepts to specifically mind-control those. 

 

They should actually be killable though.

[TeslaCruiser]

I was thinking on a damage buff for conscripts in cqc like haihead cyclops walker. They could benefit from spray and pray tactics since bad training and high rof drum feed ppsh.. makes sense...right?

Edited by TeslaCruiser, 26 January 2017 - 04:42 PM.

[MrDeath666]

Let's talk about buff/debuff effectiveness in game.

 

For example. I'll take Oxidizer supported with 8 Gattling tanks firnig at the same air target. Average damage per second of each Gatt tank is X, so their overall DPS is 8*X. When Oxi takes it's place, the damage is buffed by 25% (armor decrease) and become 1.25*8*X=10*X. It's like 2 Gatt tanks more, obviously. And since Oxi cost nearly the same as 2 Gatts (1100 vs 600*2), anti-air only, can't do anything alone and much higher tier, I don't see any reasons to built it before you spam this pretty high number of units. And I have a question, does this debuff machine really worth it ?

 

Next example is Coordnode, 15% damage increase for 800$ in average area. Doing the same maths as for Oxidizer, you can calculate that you need something like 13 affected Pillboxes, 10 Gun Turrets or 7 Patriots to make it more valuable choise than just placing another defence. That's quite ridiculous number, isn't it ?

 

For me, the main problem of most such utility units is cost inefficiency. I cannot understand why things like Syncronin (Oxi on steroids, even more costly and with less debuff persentage) can be compared with Dustdevil and Hummigbird, which halves stats in a good aoe. Units like Bulldog with flash grens, Plague Splatter or Sensor Tower is ok even their debuff effect is trash (come on, ten percent ! It's close to nonexistent!), because they provide much more usefullness than just impair enemy. Totally IMHO, but effects above need some rescaling.

Edited by MrDeath666, 27 January 2017 - 04:35 AM.

[X1Destroy]

Is there a reason why the tech missile bunker doesn't return to neutral/self-destruct when the player lost all of his other buildings and units with shortgame on?

Edited by X1Destroy, 27 January 2017 - 06:37 AM.

[Speeder]

Yes, it's counted for victory. If it wasn't, the missile launch wouldn't work.

[CLAlstar]

Let's talk about buff/debuff effectiveness in game.

 

For example. I'll take Oxidizer supported with 8 Gattling tanks firnig at the same air target. Average damage per second of each Gatt tank is X, so their overall DPS is 8*X. When Oxi takes it's place, the damage is buffed by 25% (armor decrease) and become 1.25*8*X=10*X. It's like 2 Gatt tanks more, obviously. And since Oxi cost nearly the same as 2 Gatts (1100 vs 600*2), anti-air only, can't do anything alone and much higher tier, I don't see any reasons to built it before you spam this pretty high number of units. And I have a question, does this debuff machine really worth it ?

 

Next example is Coordnode, 15% damage increase for 800$ in average area. Doing the same maths as for Oxidizer, you can calculate that you need something like 13 affected Pillboxes, 10 Gun Turrets or 7 Patriots to make it more valuable choise than just placing another defence. That's quite ridiculous number, isn't it ?

 

For me, the main problem of most such utility units is cost inefficiency. I cannot understand why things like Syncronin (Oxi on steroids, even more costly and with less debuff persentage) can be compared with Dustdevil and Hummigbird, which halves stats in a good aoe. Units like Bulldog with flash grens, Plague Splatter or Sensor Tower is ok even their debuff effect is trash (come on, ten percent ! It's close to nonexistent!), because they provide much more usefullness than just impair enemy. Totally IMHO, but effects above need some rescaling.

1. Short answer, yes. Long answer - Oxidizer debuff is stackable. I cant see why someone would end up making just one oxidizer, when you can have 4 and pretty much obliberate anything what's in air. 4x Oxi equals lowering target armor to ~30% of original value. Speaks for itself, huh? In both 3.3 and 3.0 Oxidizers are my favourite toys in terms of dealing against mass AA.

 

2. Dunno. I rather have +15% damage on my turrets because i dont think that anyone is going to bother wasting money on additional 13 pillboxes which surely wont attack at once due to msot of them being out of range when they can simply buff frontline ones and have their cash spent on something that is actually helpful.

 

3. Same case as oxidizer. Debuff is stackable and have decent range. Not to mention that when synced, they become stealth and gain area of efect in cost of range. I saw many bases destroyed by surprise syncornauts and small attack parties. So if you are asking if its worth once again, then i say yes.

 

Also, 10% may have all the difference in the world. For some units its one less attack to finish the enemy. And Sensor tower itself is created not only because of it debuff apply.

[aethiraes]

Let's talk about buff/debuff effectiveness in game.

For example. I'll take Oxidizer supported with 8 Gattling tanks firnig at the same air target. Average damage per second of each Gatt tank is X, so their overall DPS is 8*X. When Oxi takes it's place, the damage is buffed by 25% (armor decrease) and become 1.25*8*X=10*X. It's like 2 Gatt tanks more, obviously. And since Oxi cost nearly the same as 2 Gatts (1100 vs 600*2), anti-air only, can't do anything alone and much higher tier, I don't see any reasons to built it before you spam this pretty high number of units. And I have a question, does this debuff machine really worth it ?

Next example is Coordnode, 15% damage increase for 800$ in average area. Doing the same maths as for Oxidizer, you can calculate that you need something like 13 affected Pillboxes, 10 Gun Turrets or 7 Patriots to make it more valuable choise than just placing another defence. That's quite ridiculous number, isn't it ?

For me, the main problem of most such utility units is cost inefficiency. I cannot understand why things like Syncronin (Oxi on steroids, even more costly and with less debuff persentage) can be compared with Dustdevil and Hummigbird, which halves stats in a good aoe. Units like Bulldog with flash grens, Plague Splatter or Sensor Tower is ok even their debuff effect is trash (come on, ten percent ! It's close to nonexistent!), because they provide much more usefullness than just impair enemy. Totally IMHO, but effects above need some rescaling.

There are some issues with your calculations.

First off, Oxidizer doesn't buff damage. It reduces enemy armour. Admittedly, I don't know how armour works in MO. However, you're basing your calculation off of a misunderstanding of what Oxidizers actually do.

Second, oxidizer debuff stacks. You only took into account a single oxidizer. Let's go with your assumption of oxidizer works for simplicity. If it buffs damage by 1.25, then after 4 Oxidizers, the total damage is (1.25)^4 * 8 X = 19.5 X.

So for the effective cost of 8 Gatling tanks (based on your calculations), 4 oxidizer produces the damage output of 11.5 additional gatling tanks.

As for the Coordnode I think you might have a point, but you need consider other variables like attack range and fire rate. For example, an EA player would probably build a grand cannon near the Coordnode, which has a spectacular range, so it will get off a few free shots at a safe distance.

[Divine]

For once, I agree with CLAIstar. The Oxidizer is amazing, if used the right way, and so are Synchronauts. Gatling weapons are horrible against heavy aircraft (they need a buff, by the way), but with a small group of oxidizers, they chew through them very quickly. The problem with drawing conclusions merely from calculated firepower is that it does not account for weapon range, and the simple fact that the larger a unit blob is, the less effective it is in engagements (effective as in: realising the potential in the individual firepower of the units that make up the blob). Hence in a direct confrontation, it's almost always better to have fewer units with firepower and health pool equivalent to a blob of lesser quality units (and this is what really makes Foehn OP).

[TeslaCruiser]

Right. The space is a limited resource in combat and the damage/space needed (and range) makes the real damage output

Edited by TeslaCruiser, 27 January 2017 - 11:33 PM.

[TeslaCruiser]

I mean a real damage proportion that can be usefull to compare units and find balance. Speed and hp also plays a role

[Flandre]

For once, I agree with CLAIstar. The Oxidizer is amazing, if used the right way, and so are Synchronauts. Gatling weapons are horrible against heavy aircraft (they need a buff, by the way), but with a small group of oxidizers, they chew through them very quickly. The problem with drawing conclusions merely from calculated firepower is that it does not account for weapon range, and the simple fact that the larger a unit blob is, the less effective it is in engagements (effective as in: realising the potential in the individual firepower of the units that make up the blob). Hence in a direct confrontation, it's almost always better to have fewer units with firepower and health pool equivalent to a blob of lesser quality units (and this is what really makes Foehn OP).

 

Agreed with this, Oxiders + Gatling Cannons can be OP

[Chronoshift111]

     I might be complettely out of my mind here, but here me out. I think it would be a grea idea if allied players would be able to garrason the same structures if there is space. When the player ejects,, only their units are ejected. If the structure is too damaged all of the units come out of the building as usual. Also, to help identify who has what in the structure, perhaps having different colors for the people icons? I'm not sure about the bulding color though, I'm thinking about having the first player to garrison the structure will deterine the building color. Another idea is that whomever has the most units in the structure will have the sturcture turn their player color. Any thoughts? I have no idea how difficult it would be to implement this though.

[Handepsilon]

For once, I agree with CLAIstar. The Oxidizer is amazing, if used the right way, and so are Synchronauts. Gatling weapons are horrible against heavy aircraft (they need a buff, by the way), but with a small group of oxidizers, they chew through them very quickly. The problem with drawing conclusions merely from calculated firepower is that it does not account for weapon range, and the simple fact that the larger a unit blob is, the less effective it is in engagements (effective as in: realising the potential in the individual firepower of the units that make up the blob). Hence in a direct confrontation, it's almost always better to have fewer units with firepower and health pool equivalent to a blob of lesser quality units (and this is what really makes Foehn OP).

Add to the fact that AoE doesn't divide damages between the affected units but mutually (well, not that mutually. Damage decays the further away from the center) reduces their HP. This comes to play when you pit a blob 8 Conscripts against 1 Knightframe

Edited by Handepsilon, 30 January 2017 - 04:11 AM.

[TeslaCruiser]

where did you get that info? i need this type of technical info :(
and stats
so i can do maths
No maths so far only a lot of assumptions

[Kirov_Fury]

I have a new unit suggestion for Allies or Foehn (namely Coronia) it is known as Quantum Bomber. I imagined its look similar to TIE Bomber from Star Wars.The aircraft is a support unit. It generates a black hole in the size of Pteranodon's area of effect and teleports enemy units somewhere far from your forces(to a random location on the map). How is it? The black hole also remains active for some time and keeps sucking away the units nearby. Or it can be an offensive (maybe one-off) unit that teleports multiple units to an alternative universe. However, this unit is very slow and fragile due to extreme high tech used. The unit has to be placed just above the target to generate the black hole. It is harmless against stuctures.

Edited by Kirov_Fury, 30 January 2017 - 04:23 PM.

[BlackAbsence]

Some suggestions for the Epsi Factions.

 

- Bloaticks only for SC / Bloaticts removed from HQ & PsiCorps.

- Bloaticks debuff enemy armour / defence by %20 upon exploding.

- Genotick added for HQ (Essentially a Bloatick that mutates victims instead while having very little damage to structures / tanks).

- Genotick Trap Support Power replaces the Geneburst Support Power for HQ (Which essentially does the same thing)

- Genoboost Support Power replaces Kinetic Barrier Support Power for HQ (Genoboost applies health regeneration to infantry for a duration of time) (Thought it would be more apt with their theme)

- Psychic Adepts lose their deploy function / Psychic Elites retain their deploy function (This is disregarded in campaign) (This is to make up for the fact that PsiCorps no longer have Bloaticks).

- Psychic Elites stay deployed when deployed, creating a constant field of damage while also receiving a defence bonus due to kinetic shielding (extremely good in numbers).

- Decreased fire power / fire rate for Rhan.

- Increased fire range / fire power, and decreased splash damage for Viruses (Same should be done with other snipers excluding Morales)

- Dybbuk-C (Corrupter) added only for SC. Dybbuk-C replaces the Toxic Strike Support Power yet fulfills the same propose as a controllable unit (Can be acquired without lab) (Is very weak / cheap).

Edited by BlackAbsence, 30 January 2017 - 07:18 PM.

[p0rnk1ng]

would it be possible to make Rahn turn enemy dogs into spooks with his weapon or .... is that a bad idea ?

[Handepsilon]

So I've conducted an experiment with a standalone MO files on computer without YR installed (it's probably so straightforward it doesn't need explanation. I won't anyways) and apparently it works fine. Doesn't look like something legal though

[Speeder]

Why wouldn't it work? I said all MO needs is 7 files.