1144 replies to this topic

[Olorin]

I didn't mean a special ability (though that would be cool). I meant like an attribute, like the Scouts have a fast attack, the Galadhrim are like the commandos of the Elves, and the Marchwardens are...well, we'll think of something.

Edit: the Marchwardens were of Lothlorien, and Thranduil was of Mirkwood, so I don't see how they would end up with that Woodland Magic thingy. Though, they could have greater sight or range, or something along those lines.

Edited by Olorin, 23 December 2006 - 06:05 AM.

[Elvenlord]

I really think they should have more attack power
And Galadhrim can switch to swords, so they are not screwed when something get's close like all other archers in the game

[Olorin]

True. Maybe the Marchwardens have slightly more attack power (ranged) but the Galadhrim are good all round (slow-to-middling attack speed, good ranged damage, better melee damage, very good armour). The Scouts have a low armour rating, the Marchwardens are better (depends on whether they have access to Heavy Armour), and the Galadhrim have the best out of those three.

So, the Scouts focus on harassment and early defense/offense, the Marchwardens focus on damage and pure harassment, and the Galadhrim focus on armour and defense/all out war. I think that sums them up pretty well.

Edit: the Marchwardens should be able to attack with their bows when at close range, sorta like the Gondor Archers.

Edited by Olorin, 23 December 2006 - 06:38 AM.

[zimoo]

Or they should get a small elven knife to melee with, instead of hoping to kill enemies by hitting them in the face with a bow

Edited by zimoo, 23 December 2006 - 12:17 PM.

[swan]

Maybe Marchwardens should have ambush formation, like Scouts have? It would make them better archers than Galadhrim. Or give Marchwardens an Elven Cloak ability, like Celebron has. That would make them different than Scouts.

And what about the cost of those units? My ideas:

1. Scouts (as they are now)
2. Marchwardens - 550 resources, 20 CP
3. Galadhrim Worriors - 850 resources, 25CP (higher cost because they will get an armour boost and will be much better against other infantry (if celeglin accepts our ideas). Maybe a small sword damage bonus, too?)

But Marchwardens should shoot as fast as Gondor Archers IMO.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that Gondor Archers have special bonus against orcs. Maybe give Scouts or Marchwardens such bonus, not against orcs, but other units?

Or they should get a small elven knife to melee with, instead of hoping to kill enemies by hitting them in the face with a bow

Nice idea

[Bebbe]

Or they should get a small elven knife to melee with, instead of hoping to kill enemies by hitting them in the face with a bow

Animating isn't too fun you know.

[Ecthelion]

An insane idea concerning marchwardens...

What about allowing them to build flets anywhere on the map which they then garrisson. The flets would have to be undistinguishable from the minimap and very similar to standard trees. When not garrisoned they would have no effect but when garrisoned it would give the marchwardens immunity from melee and range evasion, albeit once identified the flet should be easy to kill.

Ecthelion

[Celeglin]

I wouldn't say a staff would be suitable for Gildor, although a spear definatly would. The vanyar were famed for their skill with spears, so it seems likely that he'd wield one.

but yeah, as zimoo said, it would be pretty cool if Gildor would wield a spear..

Gildor with a spear is a nice idea - something different than other Elven heroes. And spear is a bit more stealth weapon than sword, so it suits Gildor.

Well I had posed the question in the beginning (I think) of whether he should use a short sword, staff, or polearm.If the consensus now is to give him a spear, I'm not totally against that (it'll be easier from an animation standpoint).

And I have one more idea. I'm not sure was something like this mentioned before, but: Rhovanion Elves are going to be stealth and bow-armed faction. What do you think about a new upgrade called "Mallorn Bows"? For Rhovanion Archers:

Cost: 1000 - 1200
Equipping cost: 350 - 450
Provides: +10% range, +10% attack speed, +10 attack.

Something similar to this concept is certainly a possibility.

Or maybe they used the powers that were given to them to make the bows (like in Eragon II when the Elf Queen Islanzadi sung the bow from the trees, if any of you have read it).

Robert Jordan did that with the Ogier in his series "The Wheel of Time" (read these books if you haven't; I consider them on the same level as the Lord of the Rings, but with more character driven stories, especially as you progress through the books).

Concerning Scouts, Marchwardens, and Galadhrim

I was going to quote all the various comments made recently, but I figured it would just be better to just sum up my current thoughts on these three units.

Scouts - will likely stay the exact same as they are in the current version

Galadhrim - before I start with them, you should know that the current Galadhrim Warriors do not have a speed reduction when they switch to swords (the summoned Elven Warriors for Gondor and and Rohan still do, but it's not as drastic as EA's version). Moving right along, the "look" of the Galadhrim will be like how they are in the campaign Helm's Deep mission (with possibly some more variances between the unarmoured and armoured versions). They will lose their natural stealth-in-trees aspect, but will instead be able to use an "Elven Cloak" ability, exactly like Celeborn and the hobbits. This means that they can't move stealthed, but they can stealth anywhere (can't attack stealthed either, so you'll have to micromanage that aspect). They will lose some of their anti-cavalry attributes and will be a little stronger against pikemen.

Marchwardens - These guys are the tricky ones. My initial thought (and I'd still like to accomplish it) is to make them super-stealthy. This would mean that they could both stealth near trees by default and have the ability to stop and cloak anywhere. However, I remember trying this with an early version of Celeborn, and something just wasn't right about it: fortunately though, I think it may have just been an FX problem (which can be easily sidestepped by not having FX for the cloak toggle). They will be archer-only with slightly better defense than the Mirkwood Scouts. They're attack speed will be about on par with the Galadhrim (making them slower than the Scouts). They also won't have the "Ambush" formation that makes the Scouts so useful. Other than those ideas, I haven't had much of a chance to explore their possibilities, though I think their super-stealthiness will make them very unique.

Galadhrim take less damage from all foot soldiers but more from cav, maybe more from seige too?

I'm quite certain that the Galadhrim are already weak against siege weapons.

Maybe make spearmen untrampleable

This will most likely happen when/if I expand the mod.

An insane idea concerning marchwardens...

What about allowing them to build flets anywhere on the map which they then garrisson. The flets would have to be undistinguishable from the minimap and very similar to standard trees. When not garrisoned they would have no effect but when garrisoned it would give the marchwardens immunity from melee and range evasion, albeit once identified the flet should be easy to kill.

Very insane and definitely not going to happen .

[swan]

Maybe give Marchwardens a spacial ability which increases their range and attack speed for a short period of time? To make them better archers than Galadhrim. Available from level 2, called "Elven Wrath".

[Thorontur]

I don't think so, they are ambushy type units too, just the lorien version of scouts, but we had to make them different......
They would be used as snipers

Has anyone ever thought of what the Elves would do on maps like Black Gate, Emwyn Muil or Dagorland? There are other maps that I don't recall that have very sparse amounts of trees but they'd take the strategy of Elven ambushes away.

[Elvenlord]

Then they will have trouble, but if they survive, bring out spearmen and galadhrim asap
Hiding in the trees help, but it doesn't make them totally helpless without them

[Celeglin]

Has anyone ever thought of what the Elves would do on maps like Black Gate, Emwyn Muil or Dagorland? There are other maps that I don't recall that have very sparse amounts of trees but they'd take the strategy of Elven ambushes away.

Dagorlad is actually alright with the Elves (it has enough trees and a lot of choke points (which benefit the smaller numbers of the Elves immensely)). Black Gate is, of course, a bitch; I can't worry about balance for that map, though, as it was added in "for fun" by EA, with few thoughts of balance themselves. The worst map I've found for the Elves is actually Nurn, with the Harad maps coming behind it. Few choke points and few trees = eep!

[Thorontur]

Has anyone ever thought of what the Elves would do on maps like Black Gate, Emwyn Muil or Dagorland? There are other maps that I don't recall that have very sparse amounts of trees but they'd take the strategy of Elven ambushes away.

Dagorlad is actually alright with the Elves (it has enough trees and a lot of choke points (which benefit the smaller numbers of the Elves immensely)). Black Gate is, of course, a bitch; I can't worry about balance for that map, though, as it was added in "for fun" by EA, with few thoughts of balance themselves. The worst map I've found for the Elves is actually Nurn, with the Harad maps coming behind it. Few choke points and few trees = eep!

Well I would have to agree with Elvenlord here. The Elves are supposedly the elite race in Middle-Earth and therefore should manage to find a way to stay alive if they aren't two feet away from their beloved trees.

[Elvenlord]

I said they do survive when away from trees, they just aren't as cost effective

[Olorin]

Liking what I'm hearing Celeglin. I agree in making the Marchwardens super-stealthy, though then the Scouts eventually will become obselete (correct me if I'm wrong). What makes the Scouts so special then if the Marchwardens are super-stealthy and the Galadhrim are stronger (apart from a relatively fast attack and early game survival)?

Edited by Olorin, 23 December 2006 - 11:59 PM.

[Elvenlord]

That would have to be it, their tremendous attack speed will better against weak units (like orcs)

[Thorontur]

I came into this topic about 13 pages in so I can't be asked to read the other dozen, so what heroes can be expected for Rhovianon?

[Elvenlord]

It is all listed in the first page by Celeglin, you don't need to look farther then the first post

[Olorin]

Literally. The heroes are those of Mirkwood and Lothlorien basically. And nothing special about the Scouts except that...eh. I suppose you're right. Does look balanced now.

[Celeglin]

Things that make the Scouts useful even with Marchwardens and Galadhrim:

- fastest attack rate of any archer battalion in the game. This is a plus on many levels, foremost is against buildings, monsters, and heroes (basically, anything with lots of health). They end up doing more damage against these than Galadhrim simply because they have more time to launch off more volleys than any other battalion.
- Ambush formation makes them incredibly deadly against melee opponents. Properly used (as has been shown by various forumers) this formation can trump almost anything.
- Thranduil's leadership (which adds range and vision) doesn't affect Lothlorien units. All other leadership for Rhovanion though (bar Celeglin, but he doesn't really count) affects the Scouts.
- cheapest Rhovanion units. If your in a pinch for resources, they'll do you better than trying to buy Marchwardens (and if you're in a bind for cash, chances are your current circumstance probably won't be benefited greatly by the Marchwarden's added stealth).