1143 replies to this topic

[robnkarla]

I do like the idea of add specialization type abilities to each of the factions. In this function, it would take already unique factions and extend their individuality. "Libraries" of this sort is an idea of played with, and I'm not sure I'd implement this exactly the way that Elvenstar or another mod might do the same.

One thing that I'd be reluctant to do, if at all, is put existing enhancements/powers to into the system. A lot of the items listed are part of the what I consider inherint abilities of the factions.

What I've thought about in the past is giving each faction different abilities once they reach a specific level. Meaning, at level 2, elven horses gain the extra speed and damage. Once a pp is purchased, Gandalf, Boromir, & Faramir can these abilties. At level 5, maybe the dwarven units gain a boost in their speed.

These are just ideas that I've been playing with. Also, I've thought about the powers as being purchased from a late-game fortress. Maybe each fortress has 3 different levels of upgrades that are purchased. (Currently there are two levels with only one upgrade from the 2nd level.) Once the requirements are met for each level, then they are available for purchase. I would over-all want to do something along these lines than having a specific building.

So as to sum it up, I'd like to add more to the late game individuality of the factions with these types of technologies. When I implement them, it will be through one of the two methods:

1) Later experience levels. Each unit gains special "faction" abilities at 2, 5, 7, & 10.

or

2) A set of Fortress Expansions where you can research different powers depending on the level of the fortress.

Either way, I'll be implementing these changes after all the buildings/units are finalized in terms of balance/art. I'd like to balance the factions without these, and then add them as specializations while maintaining the balance. So the main pieces I would be doing are the campaigns and these powers.

Well, those are my ideas that I've had for awhile, but since it was some time before I could work on them (Any modelers and skinner want to join the team?) I did not want to announce them and have everyone wondering when I would get around to them.

Thank you for the suggestions,
Robert

[Ergopad]

Glad to hear, that you are considering putting up these upgrades into the game.

I agree that "library" as another building is useless and the fortress leveling system sounds pretty good. Though you would add some upgrades to recruitment buildings or forge. For example, if you would add "Bows of the Galadhrim" upgrade, it would fit perfectly to level 3 archery range...


Branching "techology tree" would be nice too and give a little spice to the game. And these upgrades should cost a LOT (1000... 5000) and not worth the money at early gameplay...

And agree with you, about announcement. Just focus to slay the bugs and the living world. I'm having a good feeling about this mod and I hope you manage to get it "ready". Happy modding!

[robnkarla]

thats kinda what SEE is doing, and also, you missed a bit of german in there

That is one reason I don't want libraries. Chris, Sul, and I often think alike on what to add. I want to focus on what is different between the mods. Once those areas are done I'll work through the areas that are similar.

While their libraries are looking to be very complex, they are different than the few basic faction upgrades than I was imagining for RJ-RotWK. I'll go through all of the options later when it gets closer.

The basic idea is I'm going to break out the upgrades for the fortress into their own commandsets and use a switching commandset to display them instead of just a view commandset portiont that is in there now. I would then break-up the existing upgrades into two groups. Then I would add a few more upgrades in the two levels, and then add 2-4 high level upgrades. Some would be three levels, while not armor it would be similar to bronze->steel->mithril grades.

Just some ideas I've played with in the back of my mind...

Robert J.

[phows]

i think you must add wolfriders to goblin/wild because you know in the book "The Hobbit" goblins mounts sometimes on wolfs

[Allathar]

Remove the ugly red fx for Evil Faction forged blades since it reminds me too much of a Sith, and make it blue fx like good factions instead. Not hard to do, since some units already got it but you also missed some.

[Ergopad]

Remove the ugly red fx for Evil Faction forged blades since it reminds me too much of a Sith, and make it blue fx like good factions instead. Not hard to do, since some units already got it but you also missed some.

Agree, but maybe a white glow/glitter fx would be even better!

[Allathar]

I don't know, I'd have to see how white fx looks in-game first.

[robnkarla]

Well, what I'm going to do is go through and attempt to standardize all the forged blades effects. I'm going to play with the different options that are available for and once ready, offer the options up to the beta testing group to let me know which they'd prefer.

[Ergopad]

Are there any intentions to make upgrades unique.

Dwarves:
"Mithril Blades" blue glow, +damage
"Mithril Armor" blue glow, +armor +little arrow prot.
"Fire Arrows" as it is

Elves:
"Noldorian Blades" golden glow, +atk speed
"Noldorian Armor" golden armor, +little armor and movement speed
"Galadhrim Bows" yellow bows, +atk speed
"Silverthorn arrows" as it is

Men:
"Silvery Blades" white glow, +damage
"Silvery Armor" silvery armor, +armor +little magic/fire/poison prot.
"Fire Arrows" as it is

Goblins:
"Poison Blades" green glow, +poison damage
"Scavenger Armor" brown armor, +armor and +little damage
"Poison Arrows" non-toggle able upgrade

Mordor:
"Dark Blades" red glow (like black arrows), +magic damage
"Dark Armor" orange armor (as heavy armor is now), +armor +little magic/fire/poison prot.
"Fire Arrows" as it is

Isengard:
"Forged Blades" glittering black, +damage
"Heavy Armor" glittering black, +armor +little magic/fire/poison prot.
"Fire Arrows" as it is

Evil Men:
"Barbed Blades" white glow, +damage +little pierce damage
"Ivory Armor" white armor, +damage and +little damage
"Barbed Arrows" non-toggleable upgrade

Arnor:
"Numenorian Blades" orange glow, +damage
"Numenorian Armor" green armor (as in last alliance), +armor +little magic/fire/poison prot.
"Fire Arrows" as it is

Edited by Ergopad, 17 July 2007 - 10:07 AM.

[Devon]

lol, white armor? and ivory? normal swords would cut right through ivory . otherwise, i like most of the ideas. though i think factions with poison/barbed arrows should have fire too though, since that wasnt that hard to come by.

[cleaburn]

Hey Rj and Nazgul love both your mods , Thank you for your hard long hours of work, on These perspective mods and they both show it. I hope you do share with each other and combine your accomplishments and discoveries with each other for you Guys would make one of the most awesome mods, with all of your various teams combined. In fact both of you have strengths that could Just make one awesome mod. Also why not if allowed use some of the Deluxe mods stuff the Gondor skins especially there Spearmen are tremendous. Hey I really appreciate You both and all the talent you represent.

Cleaburn :thumbup:

[Glorfindel_10]

yeah, i think getting some ideas from the elvenstar mods would cut down on a lot of work and make for one very good mod. and yes, if RJ and Nazgul were to work on a mini-mod/total conversion together, it would undoubtedly make for the best mod ever. hey, I can dream, right? lol

[Distant]

I have three things to say. I apologize in advance for the length.

The Ring:

I like a lot of what I’ve heard and I have some twists to suggest of my own. For me, the ring in the books represented temptation and, fundamentally, choice. Some chose to covet the ring, some chose to wield it, others to resist it and attempt to destroy it. My suggestion regarding the ring is to provide a choice to the player and then to make them live (or die) with the consequences. From a game mechanic perspective here’s how it could flow.

Gollum (or Frodo, chosen at random?) found, killed, ring is dropped, everyone gets their warning, map ping, and revealed terrain as per normal operations. First unit on the scene picks up the ring. I’ve got no problem with wimpy underling grabbing it, as the higher powers think nothing of having weaker men fetch their prize. So far no differences.

If possible, at this point control of the unit that picked up the ring would be lost to the player, and the unit makes a bee-line to the nearest fortress with no regard for its own survival, ignoring all orders. If the unit is not a hero unit, then it would be assumed that they coveted the ring to much to let it go, and would have to be killed inside the fortress to pry it from their fingers. If that’s not possible, it’s ok, because the good part comes once the ring is in the fortress anyway.

With the ring acquired, a new Ring menu would become available in the fortress. And here a choice would have to be made. What the choices are should vary from faction to faction and should come with unique consequences. Building a super ring unit, for example, places the ring at risk on your front lines should that unit fall in battle. I have some other suggestions for possible ring menu options.

Super Ring Hero (Sauron, Balrog, Galadrial, etc.)
Super Ring Fortress Upgrade (Ranged Area Dammage Spells, Unit Buffs, Global Upgrades)
Super Ring Building (in the form of a special Ring Builder who can choose from a couple super buildings such as defensive structures, special recruitment buildings, or Library like upgrade buildings)
Existing Hero Ring enhancements (pick a hero to get crazy bonuses, even create-a-heroes maybe?)
Destroy the Ring (long timer during which all players receive frequent map pings and warnings)

The key here is that once the choice is picked, the ring is committed to that choice and is no longer available for the others. In the case of enhancing a hero, or bringing out a ring hero, the ring is now at risk of being taken off their corpse should they fall. For buildings and upgrades, it would be neat if building it enabled the player’s opponents to build an otherwise unavailable ring stealing unit. Gollum for the evil players and Frodo for the less evil players. A stealth unit (until it has the ring, of course) that can get the ring without requiring the total destruction of the building holding it. And if they make it back to their own fortress alive, then the ring upgrade or associated building would be lost until the ring is returned again. If the Frodo/Gollum thing can’t work, then the powers gained from the upgrades should be scaled to be appropriate to the challenge of smashing the building and getting the ring back. Only if the player chooses to destroy the ring (and survives the wrath of the other players while the timer ticks down) is there no risk of loosing the ring to an opponent.

It might also be neat to have other detrimental side effects based on the ring choices.

If all 5 ring choices are possible, my suggestion is to only give 3 of the choices to each faction, otherwise just 2 choices. That way each faction’s behavior with the ring will vary a bit.

Micro fortresses:

Unrelated to all that ring stuff, I’d like to see a lower cost version of the fortress for each faction that has only 4 expansion points, pushes a radius of wall-buildable area around it, can recruit builders but not heroes, and has few or no upgrades. I imagine this would involve a lot of work for a modeler. I do think that it would enhance the fortification and siege dynamic of BfME2/RotWK gameplay. This is really just a sort of fanciful wish though.

Siege Oriented Skirmish Maps:

This is the suggestion I originally set out to post here, before I had a chance to read everyone else’s posts on this thread. In BfME1, I loved the siege dynamic. I loved playing as Isengard and laying bombs along enemy walls to detonate. I loved managing the flow of new troops and replacement of damaged equipment while holding a wall against an oncoming onslaught. BfME2 first caught my eye with the ability to freely design and construct my own fortifications, and then go haywire on an enemy. Sadly, skirmish AIs don’t know what a wall is, and there really isn’t much time to get my own walls in place before an unending array of catapults brings progress to a standstill and I need to just march on out and slay some folks the old fashioned way (with my own unending array of dwarves). But then I played the story for the forces of light and I found myself on a map defending Dale. Remember that one? You get something like 10 minutes and the riches of the dwarven mountains to setup whatever manner of defense you can conceive, then face wave after wave of Mordor’s finest, who pull flank attacks, secret tunnel maneuvers, and all manner of fun siege stuff. Of course a lot of it is scripted, as it would have to be, but it got me thinking.

Imagine a skirmish map where you start with a team of builders, a heavy purse, and a big plot of land on high ground. Imagine that you are restricted from leaving your designated “build zone” or from building any units except more builders for 10 minutes. Then the curtain goes up, all build restrictions are removed, the line of barracks start churning out warriors, the factory rolls out the first catapults, and while the units are still strapping on their armor and weapon upgrades, they are marching out to face whatever it is your opponent has built.

AI scripting would be a pain, of course, if it was to be done right. I think that human players could have a lot of fun with this, however. Especialy in team games where the build areas for one team may overlap a bit, creating a layered fortress not unlike Minas Tirith.

I’m done now, sorry again about the length, but reading the posts really got me thinking about Ring dynamics.

[Dalf32]

wow that ring system sounds really complicated, even mor so than the 1 that i suggested (not sure if u read mine).
the micro fortresses sounds pretty kool but u wuldnt need the wall radius as rob mad walls bildable anywer.
that skirmish map sounds really fun, and it wuld b really hard 2 script, but perhaps u shuld tak this request 2 1 of the great mappers out ther. just bc rob alredy has a TON of stuff lined up and ppl lik u and i r givin im mor suggestions 2 implement everyday. so just my thoughts.

[Distant]

Yeah, I read yours. I tried to incorporate what I considered its better elements into my proposed system. I also tried to propose a ring system that, if any piece of it turned out to be impossible, wouldn’t screw up the rest of it by omission.

Interestingly, after writing that post I downloaded a bunch of help files on map making. I’m a slow learner, but I might as well spend my time contributing rather than asking. Any tips, of course, are welcome.

[dracker]

is it possible to maybe change the appearance of the two guys in gondor and arnor that look alike.
not that they will be fighting together all that much but it would be a lot better if everyone was unique.


for the ring idea i think it would also be a cool idea to maybe let it supe up ur normal characters
like make a character more powerful than their lvl 10 form
and maybe even give them some unique powers

[dracker]

I also thought for the final release of the mod when everything is said and done u could tell on the war of the ring map where to go next if u want to follow the story exactly

down to a t.
because a few times i moved my guys one way when i should have moved them another way.
and its especially difficult to know where to go for the elves and the dwarves.

over all though BEST MOD EVER

[mr_g]

In the 1.05.02, sometimes my units don't auto attack enemy lair, even if they are in agressive stance.
I mean when I told them to kill the goblins, cave troll, wargs, they attack only the lair and not the creature before; I have to tell them to attack the creature before.

[Dzhon]

I'd like to second the calls of those who want to see as much collaboration between this great mod and Nazgul's SEE as possible. I've been playing around with both this past week and am really enjoying them.

The SEE mod does the best job yet of bringing the feel of the movies into the game, but I can only play skirmishes so many times. I'd love to see the look and gameplay brought into WotR and the campaign. Heck, I'd like to play the BFME2 campaign through again with the new skins.

RJ-RotWK is one of the most innovative mods I've ever seen, and I really like how some of the better elements of the original BFME are incorporated. However, I'll admit that I hated the "fast and fluid" focus of BFME2 and, by extension, RotWK. It's very hard to go back to BFME2's game mechanics (paper buildings, spam and rush tactics, etc.) after replaying BFME's Good Campaign with TEA and trying out SEE. I was laughing out loud yesterday while playing the Eaves of Fangorn mission and having to make my pint-sized Ents flee from a few packs of Wargs and Uruk Sworsmen. I know Rob has said that he more or less likes BFME2 1.06's gameplay, but I think a combination of SEE's more strategic and defensive gameplay with RJ-RotWK's BFME1 meets BFME2 feature would eventually result in the best mod out there.

It's great to see that campaigns are being developed concurently with new factions and game features. So many promising mods had ambitious plans for new campaigns but never progressed beyond new skirmish features, units, heroes before being abandoned. I still think the heart of RTS games is their campaigns, not skirmishing (whether vs. players or the AI).

Edited by Dzhon, 01 August 2007 - 05:40 PM.

[robnkarla]

Well, I'm very grateful to hear all of you comments. These type of responses mean a lot to what I do.

I believe SEE and I are most definitely working I hope more in the future and I think our next two releases will most definitely show that.

S.E.E.'s upcoming release will have the camera system included on two of their maps, as a kind of preview of the system as it's fully implemented. Also, I've begun at least fixing up their campaign so it will run in S.E.E.

For RJ-Rotwk, I'm finally going to implement some things that I've been waiting on for I don't know how long, just becuase I did not want anyone thinking I was copying/stealing from S.E.E. Chris and I seem to think very much alike, and we have similar ideas. So some of the things I'll be doing are re-scaling units, strengthening structures (not nearly as much as S.E.E., but at least somewhat) and reinforcing buildings, and some other gameplay mechanics.

Now while I've always said I started this as a base of BFME2 1.06, that is more in the mechanics of the game:

1) Rock, paper, scissors balance
2) leadership system compared to RotWK & prior patches
3) Heroes strengthened and the leveling system
4) Just as a huuge improvement to the gameplay of BFME2

That doesn't mean that I particularly love the rush games. The overall game mechanics of BFME1 I still think are the best, especially with the uniqueness of each of the factions. I still think that some of the factions need to be rush/spammers (goblins/mordor/rohan peasants), and others that lend to more of turtling, and others that are speed/strong units (Elves/Isengard), and so forth.

Anyway, what am I trying to get at? The gameplay is slowly being morphed into the game I love. A lot of my time thus far has been to get all of the different options put together and make sure everything is working. I've got a couple of more mechanic type items that I'm working on, and once that is complete it will all be about gameplay balance and the feel of the game, which is why I need a larger beta testing team. It's crazy, I feel like I've been spending almost all of the time so far just putting up the framwork on the house (which unlike many mods, which usually keep the same overall frame). Soon all will be well, and the really enjoyable part of decorating is coming up.....

Enough babbling, I personally am terribly excited about not only the next release, but subsequent releases as well as I start to work on the look and feel of the game as to opposed to the workings of it.

Robert J.