556 replies to this topic

[Damrod]

Yes, and there are already heroes being slated for adding as well as new units. It seems to me that if the dwarf team had as many heroes as the elf team they would become unbeatable. Granted, we would all love to see our favorite teams become the bomb in the game, but an unbalanced game just sucks for everyone else.

[Námo]

concerning Dwarven heroes:

The only 'dead' dwarf we could always have is Durin the Deathless.
I wouldn't know how to rationalize his inclusion though. If he were ever to make an appearance in the War of the Ring, it would be noted (and isn't in neither the movie nor the books).

Durin the Deathless, was reborn for the last time at about T.A. 2966-8 as Durin VII the Last, son of Thorin III Stonehelm, (according to Christopher Tolkien, see quotations below) - As the dwarves did attain 'full manhood' about the age of forty, he would be a mighty warrior at the time of the War of the Ring; IMO he would indeed be as qualified for 'Ring Hero' for the Dwarven faction as any other, except Tharkûn!

...

A) SHORT VERSION:

Seven Founding Fathers,
... proud children of Aulë, blessed by Ilúvatar;
Seven Rings of Power,
... for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone.
Seven Dwarven Kindreds,
... their names revealed by the Old Man himself,
Seven Dwarven Heroes,
... for SEE, fighting in Battle for Middle-earth!

The number of dwarves, living at the time of War of the Ring, and given proper names by Tolkien himself, is seven:
... kings of the line of Durin:
Dain II Ironfoot, Thorin III Stonehelm (son of Dain II), Durin VII the Last (son of Thorin III)
... other Longbeards:
Glóin, Gimli Elf-friend (son of Glóin), Dwalin, Burin (son of Balin)

The names of the seven kindreds of the Dwarves, as given by Tolkien in his late writings:
... Durin's people:
'the Longbeards' (well-known from The Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion)
... others (none of these names of the other six kindreds of the Dwarves has been given before):
'the Firebeards' and 'the Broadbeams' (these kindreds must be presumed to be the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, who after the First Age migrated to Moria)
'the Ironfists', 'the Stiffbeards', 'the Blacklocks', and 'the Stonefoots'
[these names could eventually be used for some 'authentic' or 'unique' naming for some units ]

...

B) LONG VERSION:

note on Durin VII the Last, son of Thorin III Stonehelm:

The lore concerning the Dwarves and their history in the Lord of the Rings is found in Appendix A: (III) 'Durin's Folk'. To evaluate other versions or texts written later, it is essential to understand the problems Tolkien encountered writing the appendices.

The first volume of The Lord of the Rings was published in the summer of 1954, and the second volume in the autumn; at that time the type for the text of the third volume had already been set, but the third volume could not be printed until the appendices arrived ...

Tolkien had at one time planned to fill an entire 'specialist volume' with details of the history and linguistics of his mythological peoples, and he had amassed a great deal of notes on these topics. However, he found the task maddeningly difficult, as he had to compress everything, because the publishers could only give him a short space at the end of the book. 'I am stumped.' Tolkien wrote in October. 'Indeed in a panic.' ...

... so it was not until almost a year after the publication of The two Towers, that The Return of the King reached the bookshops. A note on the last page apologized for the absence of the promised index.

In that process, a lot of drafts were omitted, or stories postponed to be written at a later time, or simply lost ... some did survive, and has later been published by Christopher Tolkien, like this:

pp. 274, 276, 278:
My father's original text of what would become the section Durin's Folk in Appendix A is [...] entitled Of Durin's Line accompanied by a genealogy forming a part of the text. [...] Here the history {of Thrór's ancestors} is present, but not yet precisely in the final form; [...]

This text was followed by a second version, a well-written and scarcely corrected manuscript with the title Of Durin's Race. [...]

The passage added to the first version was slightly filled out and improved, but the only difference worth noticing lies in the sentences following the words 'made war of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains in revenge for Thrór', which now read: 'Long and deadly was that war, and it was fought for the most part in dark places beneath the earth; and at the last the Dwarves had the victory, and in the Battle before the Gate of Moria ten thousand Orcs were slain. But the Dwarves suffered also grievous loss and his people were now so diminished that Thráin dared not to enter Moria, and his people were dispersed again.' The only really significant difference from the first version, however, lies in the final sentence, which became:

And the line of Dáin prospered, and the wealth and renown of the kingship was renewed, until there arose again for the last time an heir of that House that bore the name of Durin, and he returned to Moria; and there was light again in deep places, and the ringing of hammers and the harping of harps, until the world grew old and the Dwarves failed and the days of Durin's race were ended.

Thus it was here that 'Durin the Last' emerged, and it is said of him that he returned from Erebor to Moria and re-established it (as is said in the accompanying genealogical table). [...] It is impossible to discover whether my father did in fact reject this idea, or whether it simply became 'lost' in the haste with which the Appendices were finally prepared for publication. The fact, that he made no reference to 'Durin VII and Last', though he appears in the genealogy in Appendix A, is possibly a pointer to the latter supposition.

There are two copies of the genealogical table accompanying the second version, but they are essentially the same: [...] Thorin III is now called 'Stonehelm', and 'Durin the Last' is shown as his son, 'who re-established the Realm of Moria'; beneath his name is a dotted arrow (as beneath Thorin III in the original table) indicating unnamed descendants. ...

This ... supports the conclusion that a good deal of the late drafting in typescript has been lost.

conclusion: from the evolution of the genealogical tables it is clear, that Durin VII the Last emerged as the son of Thorin III Stonehelm, even though this is not shown in the table printed in Appendix A of the Lord of the Rings. If his father Thorin III can be included in the game, so can the son.

It would indeed be nice to see him in the game, especially as he is the only of the dwarven heroes who could fill the role as ring-hero. It were the belief of the Dwarves, that when Durin was reborn, he would retain all the memories of his past lives; this might give him greater mental strength (to wield the One Ring) than any of the other Dwarven heroes possessed.


note on Glóin and Dwalin:

p. 284-5:
Dwarves of different 'breed' vary in their longvity. Durin's race were originally long-lived (especially those named Durin), but like most other people they had become less so during the Third Age. Their average age (unless they met a violent death) was about 250 years, which they seldom fell far short of, but would occasionally far exceed (up to 300) ... (note: Dwalin lived to the vast age of 340) ...

Dwarves remained young - e.g. regarded as too tender for really hard working or for fighting - until they were 30 or nearly that (Dain II was very young in 2799 (32) and his slaying of Azog was a great feat). After that they hardened and took on the appearance of age (by human standards) very quickly. By forty all Dwarves looked much alike in age, until they reached what they regarded as old age, about 240. They began to age and wrinkle and go white quickly (baldness being unknown among them), unless they were going to be long-lived, in which case the process was delayed [...] 'old age' lasted not much more than ten years, and from say 40 or a little before to near 240 (two hundred years) the capacity for toil (and for fighting) of most Dwarves was equally great.

conclusion: all the three 'older' Dwarven heroes were still strong warriors at the time of the War of the Ring - Dain II Ironfoot 252 years (Gandalf: 'in his great age he could still wield his axe mightily ... standing over the body of King Brand before the Gate of Erebor'), Dwalin 247 years (and still living for a further 93 years) and Glóin 236 years (living for a further 15 years).


note on Burin son of Balin:

Burin appears in the early drafts for The Fellowship of the Ring as Glóin's companion, and as one of the members the Fellowship. Later replaced by Gimli. Burin is about twenty years older than Gimli.

('the Council of Elrond', early draft) p. 395:
Glóin was there also with a younger dwarf, whom Frodo later discovered was Burin son of Balin.

('the Council of Elrond', later draft) p. 400:
He then pointed out and named those whom Frodo had not seen before. There was a younger dwarf at Glóin's side, [Burin the son of Balin >] his son Gimli. (this first appearance of Gimli son of Glóin was a penciled alteration)

note on the seven kindreds of the Dwarves:

p. 301:
In the Dwarvish traditions of the Third Age the names of the places where each of the Seven Ancestors had 'awakened' were remembered; but only two of them were known to Elves and Men of the West: the most westerly, the awakening place of the Firebeards and the Broadbeams; and that of the ancestor of the Longbeards, the eldest in making and awakening. The first had been in the north of Ered Lindon, the great eastern wall of Beleriand, of which the Blue Mountains of the Second and later ages were the remnant; the second had been Mount Gundabad (in origin a Khuzdul name), which was therefore revered by the Dwarves, and its occupation in the Third Age by the Orks of Sauron was one of the chief reasons for their great hatred of the Orks. The other two places were eastward, at distances as great or greater than that between the Blue Mountains and Gundabad: the arising of the Ironfists and Stiffbeards, and that of the Blacklocks and Stonefoots. Though these four points were far sundered the Dwarves of different kindreds were in communication, and in the early ages often held assemblies at Mount Gundabad. In times of great need even the most distant would send help to any of their people; as was the case in the great War against the Orks (Third Age 2793 to 2799). ...

[Gfire]

Where did you get T.A. 2966 for the date of birth? I don't see that in any of the quotes.

[Námo]

... about T.A. 2966-8 ...

The year of birth of Durin VII the Last, son of Thorin III Stonehelm, is actually not stated in any version of the genealogical tables, but you can make a deduction concerning his birth from this:

It is said (concerning dwarven women) that: 'Dwarves marry late, seldom before they are ninety or more, and they have few children (so many as four being rare)' and in a note to this:

note 18, p.288:
In the genealogical table all the 'kings of Durin's Folk' from Nain I to Thorin Oakenshield were born either 101 or 102 (in one case 100) years after their fathers.

The line [Dáin I] .. Grór (2563) > Náin (2665) > Dáin II Ironfoot (2767) > Thorin III Stonehelm (2866) .. [Durin VII the Last] shows the same pattern.

[Gfire]

Ah, I see... Well that makes sense. I had always pictured him being born after the War of the Ring sometime, but I don't tend to study the lore in that much depth.

[Námo]

The number of dwarves, living at the time of War of the Ring, and given proper names by Tolkien himself, is seven:

Sorry, the correct number is 12; I just forgot some of the survivors from Thorin Oakenshield's company, focusing mostly on the line of Durin and the lore concerning the last Durin. :( ... embarrassing )

The remaining dwarves, living with King Dáin in the 'Dwarf-kingdom under the Mountain', were:

p. 210:
... Dori, Nori, Bifur, Bofur and Bombur. But the last was now so fat that he could not move himself from his couch to his chair, and it took four young dwarves to lift him.

However their age are unknown, and can only be roughly guessed from some vague hints in The Hobbit - at the time of the War their age were probably: Dori and Nori 235 to 245 years, and Bifur and Bofur about 200 to 240 years. As the last two were 'descended from Dwarves of Moria but were not of Durin's line', their lifespan must have been shorter than the others. So Bifur and Bofur could very well have been old too.

This leaves us with still seven dwarves, of whom we know that they definitely were 'fit for fight' in the War of the Ring.

[ttandchotmail]

G'day Namo ( sorry Australian keyboards don't have the ' to go over a letter )

Bombur always did like to have a good feed from what I can recall

And thanks very much for this great info, the Dwarves are my favorite faction by far and I'm always thinking of ways to improve them. I'd picture bombur not unlike the bombadil unit we already have in the game just a bit fatter

Edited by ttandchotmail, 13 July 2009 - 07:27 AM.

[Emperor of the East]

@Nazgul: This faction needs to have Radagast the Brown Wizard added in with Price Bard, Thorin Stonehelm, and Harald of Esgaroth ("harald" is from www.darkshire.net's pdf file of names)

Edited by Emperor of the East, 04 October 2009 - 01:44 AM.

[Námo]

@Nazgûl: It looks like your return has scared some of the younger members, causing them to do some substantial editing of their posts, previously demanding that some non-Tolkien heros NEEDS be included in your mod (at least needs is no more in CAPS).

@Nazgul: ... Harald of Esgaroth ("harald" is from www.darkshire.net's pdf file of names)

... yeah, that site and its 'file of names' certainly has a lot of names, but like most other RPG stuff it has very little to do with Tolkien's Middle-earth. The author seems totally oblivious of the fact, that Quenya and Sindarin are different languages, and freely mixes those resulting in faulty etymologies for the names. ... and 'Harald of Esgaroth' is NOT a character from Tolkien's world.

@eote: if you want authentic Tolkien names, there are some good and reliable info on The Thain's Book.

on Radagast:

Of all the Istari, this would certainly be the worst one to connect with the Dwarves, as they have almost nothing in common: Radagast, being an emissary of the Valar Yavanna, did care for birds and beasts, and those creatures were of very little concern to the Dwarves (except maybe the ravens).

The 'faction' (people) that Radagast has the most affinity with is actually Rohan. In his later writings Tolkien has clearly stated, that 'Radagast' is a name 'of Northern Mannish Tongue', which is the language of the ancestors of the Rohirrim, living in the upper vales of Anduin, where also Radagast had his abode in Rhosgobel (another name in 'Northern Mannish')

... and (as stated in the lore) Radagast did ride horses, when traveling.

Also, to attain to the Rohirrim's level of mastery of horses, you need to have a deep 'feeling' for communication with animals ... at least that is my personal experience, having some horses on our farm (and my daughter doing a lot of 'horsemanship') ... (I guess that is true also for 'raising' a dog ... hope Sauron is doing well )

Edited by Námo, 05 October 2009 - 10:12 AM.

[Emperor of the East]

Fuck you, Namo. I am not scared of mod creators returning to their forums, I am actually delighted about it. The names were created not for any RPGs, but based on the languages Tolkien was mixing for each race, and your judging the list by its apperance in books has proven that you have no life beyond the fantasy that inventiveness is inferior to lore-faith, when the truth is they are equal. The author may have had some major flaws while making the list, but it still has some names that can be used with the notice that Tolkien based his works off of mythology, philosophy, and religion. And, Radagast does NOT live anywhere NEAR Rohan, the town he lives in is much closer to Elven Mirkwood and Dwarven Erebor and the Men of Dale (the reason he should be here) than he is to Rohan. And Esgaroth have some kind of hero, but his name may not be "Harald", he may not even be a he! We don't know, doesn't mean we can't equalize lore-faith with creativity, does it? By the way, Lurtz is not a Tolkien name, that was created by Peter Jackson, and he did some other equalizing lore-faith with his educated theories (a scientific form of CREATIVITY) and LOOK! His movies are so popular that this mod is PRIMARILY using the movies! The Thain's book only has names that Tolkien created and PUBLICLY ANNOUCED. Go look up "Lurtz" and you'll see what I mean. Did this help?

Please make a "yes" reply

[Sûlherokhh]

Fuck you, Namo. I am not scared of mod creators returning to their forums, I am actually delighted about it. The names were created not for any RPGs, but based on the languages Tolkien was mixing for each race, and your judging the list by its apperance in books has proven that you have no life beyond the fantasy that inventiveness is inferior to lore-faith, when the truth is they are equal. ...

1. There is no reason to attack Námo. Not only does he provide much needed insight by letting us take part of his accumulated wisdom regarding the work of Prof.Tolkien, but , unlike you, he is also a very polite man. Any jest on his part is simply meant as humor, not as an attack on your person. I also understood that Námo was pointing out to take in unverified sources with a grain of salt.

2. This mod is based on the works of Tolkien as well as Peter Jackson's interpretation. As far as possible we will stay away from other authors.

3. Radagast is a Wizard and a Maia. As such he will have lived for quite some time. It is not unlikely that he has had his abode in the Anduin Valley since before the time the Northmen where invited by Gondor's King to accept the lands now known as Rohan.

4. The name 'Lurtz' was simply a production name, solely used to internally label the biggest badass Isengard could field. You never hear his name in the movies.

5. It doesn't help at all to pick a fight. People tend to not take seriously those incapable of reasonable discourse. If you want to get your point across, there are other ways.

Thanks for reading this far.

Sûl.


Edit: If you want to read up on some popular yet very close to lore in-depth articles about middle-earth's peoples, politics and language, look up the name Michael Martinez in any kind of search engine.

Edited by Sûlherokhh, 10 October 2009 - 12:12 AM.

[khamulrulz]

on a lighter note, away from all this confrontation, how about a "northmen summon power" that brings some battalions of beornings, woodmen scouts, and dale/esgaroth archers? for other ideas for other factions, check out the spellbook thread.

and as for radagast, i think he would be more like a summon for the elves (off the topic of dwarves, sorry)

Edited by khamulrulz, 09 October 2009 - 11:59 PM.

[Emperor of the East]

@Sul: I am NORMALLY polite, I just get very angry when someone ignores equalism, I cannot help it, and your post helped me understand things MUCH better, thanks for making it..

@kmr: Despite your being off-topic, I do see that you have some very interesting points.

[Nazgûl]

Thanks Sûl for sorting that out

You know folks, you are welcome to post new single topics instead of using this one. It's grown too big, and that's why I made this new subforum for each race =)

[King Dain II Ironfoot]

I am new here and the thread is quite long so I wanted to ask is it going to be Erebor with sub-factions like Iron Hills and Ered Luin!?

[MattTheLegoman]

You just posted on the page that actually had the units and where they are from! =p

 

http://forums.revora...er/#entry999375

[King Dain II Ironfoot]

I saw the Units but I dint know how will the be implemended so I take it Iron Hills will be kind of a sub-faction with own Barracks! but I think they should have Spearman too and my be some Elite Unit for hich I have an idea as I said on other thread!