1257 replies to this topic

[dojob]

yeah ( btw, dojob i hope you dont use 300 spartans for your theory of " pike domination " becoze that movie was absolute xxxxxxxxxx, add one x for each insult as you wish though when you didnt look at the history and realism site, it wasnt that bad. If swordsmen gets close enough - which isnt THAT hard, even if pikeman is trained, he usually cant micro on battlefield, then he kills pikeman no matter what, again i say this PIKE is NOT suited for CLOSE combat battle, thats what are swords axes flials, maces hammers, and other " small " weaponry for. )

I didn't mention 300 at all; I was thinking about Alexander the Great's phalanx. And if a swordsman does get close enough then yeah i suppose he could kill the pikemen, but it's hard when there's people behind him and next to him pointing pikes at the swordsmen.

But either way, I suppose Dalf is right; swordsmen already have cavalry and archers owning them, there's no need for them to be weak against the unit they're supposed to be strong against. Though I never asked for a "tactic orgy" or simply made guesses.

[Dalmp]

And if a swordsman does get close enough then yeah i suppose he could kill the pikemen, but it's hard when there's people behind him and next to him pointing pikes at the swordsmen.

Exactly. Like brushing one needle aside before grabbing a cactus. And even if they did get close enough, the pikemen themselves usually carried their own swords. They'd draw them.

In single combat pikes are obviously next to useless. But they aren't meant for single combat. For each swordsman, there is around ten pikemen facing him. Swords require elbow room, pikes do not and can stand closer together, so that's 2 vs 1. But swords fight one rank deep, and pikes 5 or so ranks deep. So now it's 10 vs 1. Instead of envisioning it as a larger version of a 1 vs 1 battle, it'd be more accurate to view it as a larger version of a 10 vs 1 battle, and then the reason phalanxes dominated (head-on) becomes more obvious.

The spartans never used pike phalanxes anyway in that time period. They used shield phalanxes, which are a different beast. The first use of pike phalanxes was credited to Phillip II of Macedonia, Alexander's father, many years after Leonidas' life. Military brilliance ran in that family. And obviously they worked pretty well. AtG dominated the known world using them.

[Devon]

It occurs to me that bfme1's uruk horde porcupine formation could be quite useful in a situation like this.

[Shikari]

I would really like to see that put back in.

[Zyzzyva]

Perhaps make it only avalaible to elite pikes (citadel guards, rhun pikes, maybe uruk pikes would be considered elite for this) and only make it effective enough to counter basic swords. This way it would not lessen swords value, but give elite pikes a defensive against them as well as making them more atractive to buy. Mithlond Sentries of course could, as dalmp pointed out for medieval pikes, just draw their swords, so they prob shouldnt get it if this happens.

[Myrdin]

I dont know what all you guys are thinking about a pikemen losing one on one with a swordsman, pikemen would win dead on ,longer reach = win, swords are good against swords but pikes are longer it just dosnt work that way beleive me i have seen a reinactment fight of a pikemen and swordsmen fight, it goes like this the pikemen attacks first, by the way the pikemen is using a twohanded pike with smaller spear tip. The Swordsman is using a 1 to 2 handed sword witha smaller pommel and thiner blade, the swordsman just cant keep up with the mutiple attacks that come from the pikemen. So the Swordman steps back allowing some room for him self and trys to attack,but ends up having to defend himself from a thrust of the pikemens pike. Pikemen just have the advantage, they can strike any where from a small distance, like having a bow and arrow that dosnt run out. Every Pikemen should have the idea that a good offense is a good defense, if a pike men ever tryed to block a sword stike they mite be in for trouble.

ehmm excues me, but i wont agree to this. newer. For me as future swordsman in training ( yeh right, if all goes well then i ll start this summer, 18 years was one of the things needed ) cant newer accept this. Its a matter of honor, for i too will soon become trained in sword ( and i SAW what a WELL TRAINED swordsman can do, no matter the enemys weapon - pike,axe,mace,etc ), i will hold tight to my opinion, that a master swordsman can beat any other foe, But same goes for pikeman or mace fighter, its all about TRIAINING.

Not the weapon, but the one who wields it, decides the combat. soo at this point i think we all were wrong, if you have truly mastered your weapon, you can beat any lesser foe ( and in middle age the normal army soldiers didnt had that much of profesional training, mostly some basics, and if they survived, and continued as merceneries for example they got better and better, getting new experience, and increasing the skills with their weapon )

btw guys, dont forget that sword is the weapon that has the most wariants of all ( braod sword, bastard sword, long sword, katana, arabic styled swords, scrimitars ), and each of these wariants has his own + and -

and now pls let us stop speaking about swords, soo Will the Fountain Guard be able to kombine batalion with Citadel Guard ? coz it would be cool ( i tried, right now they cant, they can combine themsefl, and they can combine rangers, but no C.G. )
the best units of gondor combo batalions. ( though C.Guard, can toogle weapons soo i wonder if they would maintain their ability or loose it if combined, same with F.Guards shield formation )

Edited by Myrdin, 28 March 2008 - 08:31 PM.

[dojob]

I'm getting tired of the realism arguments at this point, since

a) this is based on a fantasy universe with trolls, dragons, and giant eagles.

b) the game isn't complex enough to factor in all the different weapon types for both sword-class units and pike-class units.

c) Elite units already own 1st-tier units regardless of unit type anyway, so that doesn't matter. It would be irritating to see an expensive, elite tower guardsman get killed by an inexpensive, horribly-trained, horribly-equipped orc. Likewise, a Dwarven zealot/khazad guard shouldn't lose to a rhudaur pikeman (or some other spamling pike unit).

d) If we went so detailed with realism in this case, we may as well have units die after a few strikes, take days to arrive, and be far more numerous. We don't need a "tactic orgy", just an enjoyable game.

e) If we look at the movies, swordsmen own pikes like when the gate was breached at minas tirith and all those orcs were charging in. Pikes seemed to suck vs cavalry though (even without Gandy's sunshine)...

f) To have an enjoyable game, there must be balance and every unit must have a unique, useful purpose. This would be possible if we went with our general system of swords>pikes since swords would then have something to counter and thus, a use.

Either that, or I go with my old suggestion of pikes generally beating swords but being slow, expensive, slower to train, VERY weak vs buildings, and being very vulnerable to being flanked/surrounded. We could also make it so that swordsmen hordes have more members than their equivalent pike hordes and give all/most/more swordsmen an ability (that would work like Dwarven charge) that lets them charge into an enemy horde and gives them serious advantages vs the pikes (IE resistance to pike damage, debuffs for the pikemen, etc).

That would add realism while still making swordsmen useful as well as adding a second use for the pikes. Depth ftw

[Dalf32]

well said dojob, well said

[Dalmp]

Interesting ideas. Yeah, I'd have no argument with increased realism so long as the sword units didn't beome obsolete. It's probably a real can of worms though..

[Myrdin]

Either that, or I go with my old suggestion of pikes generally beating swords but being slow, expensive, slower to train, VERY weak vs buildings, and being very vulnerable to being flanked/surrounded. We could also make it so that swordsmen hordes have more members than their equivalent pike hordes and give all/most/more swordsmen an ability (that would work like Dwarven charge) that lets them charge into an enemy horde and gives them serious advantages vs the pikes (IE resistance to pike damage, debuffs for the pikemen, etc).


ai, i could accept it that way. either let it be like ti is, or do this, finally some productive post, gj Dojob

[Myrdin]

( im not double posting, the last post of mine here, was pretty loong ago )

i just noticed something - the measonry for gondor isnt included, could you bring it back to game ? ( it had walls upgrade, gate upgrade and lovering cost of buildings ), i was thinking it could get 2 more upgrades or something, coz the model of that building was cool, and the gate upgrade was pretty good too ( and maybe then move the fortified armor, and fire arrows for towers in there )

one more thing - Ivory tower has too loong coldown (sp?)
and Fountain guards could use more buffing, especially archers rape them ( basic orc archers did insane dmg to them )

[Uruk King]

Agreed, the Fountain guards are meant to be Gondor's finest; capable of slaying all manner of foe; orc, man, beast, either armed with any weapon. More than better pikemen.

Also I Wondered as a fortress upgrade, the character Denethor can be issued to defend the Gondor fortress, him with an entourage of citadel guards. As part of the upgrade, All buildings around the fortess gain an armour and defensive damage increase. so for instance if I have a barracks near my fortess, it would take longer to destroy tahn usual. But becoase of the complications of boundaries in template game battles, it can only work on BFME style maps.

[Srg Insane]

I hope the Fountain Guards get a buff there my favourite unit in the whole game, ooo the memories of driving my enemies insane by holding the gates with them.

[TowerGuard418]

I would like the idea of all factions to have some sort of unit guard upgrade for RJ maps. Maybe a couple units in front of the gate, some infantry patroling the inner fortress, that sort of thing.

I agree the Fountain Guards need to be buffed. I liked the Gondor stoneworker structure too.
The stonework structure and all the main coding is allready in the game. How hard would it be to bring it back?

[Devon]

Not hard at all, we'd just need to make some upgrades for it.

[CIL]

I love tower guards but I also love citadel guards.... Anyways, I just hate having the fountain guards go like half the speed of everyone else... If you could give them a nice speed boost too, it would make me absolutely ecstatic! Also, I have a basic idea about the pike vs. sword issue... normal pikes < swords, pike w/ shield >/= (I don't know to how to make the greater than/equal to sign on comp) sword, simple... so make pike w/ shield at least somewhat decent versus swords as opposed to the typical several hit kill and almost no damage to swordsmen. Also, Myrdin, orc archers have been found to have too high an attack and are getting big time nerf, trackers should be better but they aren't... at least not now. But this next patch is supposed to not only completely redo the Elves, it is supposed (from what I interpreted) to completely re-balance the system to fit RJ-ROTWK.

Edited by Crazy Intellectual Liberal, 25 April 2008 - 04:25 AM.

[Myrdin]

dude for gods sake, dont begin again with the sword vs pike stuff. . . please
as for the archers, - i noticed trackers have better range, and dmg too ( better than basic orc archers ), soo i kinda cant agree on this one

as for the upgrades for the stoneworks, heres some suggestions:
Gate of Kings, Restless guards , Glory of the white citi and White Rider

Gate of kings - increases the hp of the gate, and changes skin ( like in BFME )
Restless guards -Every wall upgrade ( Towers, and Trebuchets ) that attacks enemy, will fire twice as fast (or have +1/2 range)
Glory of the white city - every enemy unit of rank lover than 2 (means all hordes without banners - all races have banner carriers), will recieve armor and dmg penalty when they are too near of the walls ( efect same as Dread Wisage - BUT no darkness flowing around the target, instead a shiny light )
White Rider - All units that are present on the walls will be resistant to fear (as long as they stay on walls)

its of course ment just for RJ maps

Edited by Myrdin, 25 April 2008 - 02:35 PM.

[TowerGuard418]

I don't want the sword vs pike stuff to begin either. I think it's fine how it is.
I don't like the Glory of the White City upgrade, and the White Rider upgrade could be called something more like Glory of Gondor. I like the other two. I would also like an upgrade that adds a few single units guarding the fortress like the one that adds archers to the Lothlorien fortress, but guard the gate/walls.