1257 replies to this topic

[mike_]

Hey, Hasfusel... chill.

[Hasfusel]

Chill yourself, toasty. I'm cool as a cucumber.

In light of what was said, I think it would be nice to have him using a bow until you get Heroes of Gondor, changing his Bow toggle to a Horse toggle.

[{IP} Aridor]

Aragorn needs his attack lowered and his attack speed raised. Right now he can kill the huge stuff in a couple of hits and the weak stuff like orcs in one. No the problem is that he does kill the orcs and gobs fast enough. He stands around for a bit waiting to attack. No as we read in the book and see on film his a master of killing orcs, but it takes awhile to kill the huge stuff like trolls. As he is in game right now makes no sense. He should be able to chew through tons of infantry but have to take his time on larger stuff. Against a solitary target the amount of time it takes him to kill it would be the same b/c he would be dealing a lot of medium damage blows fast. When you throw him in to a horde of weak spam units he would chew through them like he does in the book and movie.

[Neth]

I agree, he should be able to take down a normal troll (Mordor and Goblin ones) and have a struggle against an attack troll.
His attack down.
Attack speed up.

[Hasfusel]

Yes. The same could be said for several other heroes. Amongst them Faramir. I hate it how his attacks take so long. The other rangers all shoot faster than him, and he's too slow a swordsman for that to compensate. I think that both his attacks should be speeded up. The same for Boromir and Eowyn - point being that they're mainly fighter heroes without any seriously useful abilities (except from maybe Horn of Gondor) and need something to show for this.

When the Toggle Stance button is removed, I'd like it to be replaced with a new power Lvl.1 ability for Aragorn. At first, it's a toggle between Bow and Sword, allowing him to fulfil his part as a Ranger. After purchasing the Heroes of Gondor upgrade, it becomes a Horse/Foot toggle, like in Return of the King and when he rode with Gandalf and the Rohirrim.
It works both gamewise and lorewise. What do you think?

[mike_]

Sounds good, and possible. The reason for Faramir's low speed is because his arrows do.. twice? as much damage to enemies as the normal Rangers.

[Dalf32]

it still is rather embarassing (for faramir that is) when you pit him against other archer heros; especially legolas, its jsut sad. he could stand to fire a tiny bit faster perhaps, but not very much if at all, because i think hes in a pretty good place right now in terms of power vs cost.

[Scryer]

For Boromir and Eowyn, suggestions have already been sent in for them.. Although I'm not sure if any changes to them will be made for the next release.

[Hasfusel]

Oh? I'm not sure I heard these suggestions... Personally, I don't care as long as Boromir gets to ride a horse and gets Blademaster. If it was up to me, he'd have the best leadership in the game, but be twice as expensive.
I definately think that most of these heroes should have boosted attack speed. Maybe Faramir could be a slow but powerful archer but a really speedy swordsman? I feel nostalgic of the Return of the King game for PS2.

[Scryer]

Like Dalf said

he could stand to fire a tiny bit faster perhaps, but not very much if at all, because i think hes in a pretty good place right now in terms of power vs cost.

. That is all that I think is needed of him. Read pages 23-25 of the discussion for our talk about Boromir's powers.

[Hasfusel]

And with that, I'm leaving this stupid discussion (that I took part in as well, shamefully). It seems more like we prefer to argue about lore than anything else where we should be talking about the game. Aragorn is already a better swordsman than Boromir and Faramir in the game. Correct me if I'm wrong but Faramir is already worse than Boromir (except range) stat-wise. Power-wise, I would rather have Faramir because all Boromir can do is provide a pretty bad leadership, blow his horn, and give other soldiers more experience. At the moment, I don't think that Boromir is really worth his cost, to be honest. I think that, as of the latest public release, Boromir is just a really powerful soldier unit that may have a power set that doesn't do his character complete justice.

So my suggestion is that the team should consider looking over and edit Boromir when they have their focus on Gondor. Which may not happen until the public release after the next one....

I completely agree. Boromir was also a skilled horseman and one of the age's most talented and charismatic leaders. (while Aragorn, actually, was more of a modest, quiet kind of guy.) Boromir was capable of incredible feats of stamina and endurance, which were always used as examples by Denethor when lecturing Faramir. Aragorn may have been an amazing fighter, but so was Boromir. The book made a large focus on his inspirational leadership abilities; this should be implemented in the mod, in my opinion. I'd seriously improve his leadership, and give him an Inspiration power where nearby units gain experience twice as fast for a limited amount of time. Also, it would be nice for him to have Blademaster to show what a great fighter he was, or a kind of Glorious Charge for infantry. And to cap it off, once the stance buttons have been removed for heroes he could have a Horse/Foot toggle, although we wouldn't be able to use some of his powers that way to keep him more of an infantry-focused hero. I love Boromir; he's my favourite character (and in-game hero) alongside Saruman, Denethor and Faramir.
The only bad side to Boromir was the weakness of his willpower. The moment he saw the Ring he was corrupted, and at one point it completely overran his will and compelled him to try to steal it from Frodo. This is what distinguished him from Aragorn and Faramir, who were a lot stronger in that sense. This is why he would, if RJ's Ring system is implemented, have one of the shortest "corruption timers".

And if everybody thinks that all of this is just rubbish, at least give him faster attack and/or splash damage.

EDIT: And as for the other guys, I'd give Faramir either an Arrow Volley or a Glorious Charge, because you see him do both in the film. He orders fellow rangers to fire volleys of arrows at Osgliliath and Ithilien, and he leads a cavalry charge against Osgiliath later on, albeit an unsuccesful one. I'd also improve his attack speed rate, with both bow and sword. And make Wounding Arrow either cripple or do continuing damage to heroes.
Aragorn... I'd give him a Bow/Sword toggle until he gets Heroes of Gondor, when it would be changed to a Horse toggle (and the Black Gate skin). Although I don't too much like the Bow because he doesn't leave Imladris with one. In the movie, he just kind of pulls it out of Hammerspace in Balin's Tomb. And to make sure he doesn't overshadow Faramir, keep his bow firing rate relatively low.
I would also like cost increases all round, if these changes take effect. You've got to have some balance.

Edited by Hasfusel, 13 January 2009 - 09:55 AM.

[Neth]

That sounds good

[Dalf32]

lore-wise yes, that all sounds good, but i dont really agree with the toggles from a gameplay standpoint. giving aragorn a bow/sword toggle and then a mount/foot toggle would muck with both faramir's and aragorn's purpose. the same goes for giving boromir a foot/horse toggle. agreed taht boromir could stand to be better, but we would need to increase his price if he is given more powers, and then there is an unfilled slot for an early-game swordsman. he could probably get a late-level leadership of some sort without taking a cost increase, but not much more.
i like the ideas, but we must think of the role each hero fills within the faction before any changes can be made.
keep 'em coming though

[Scryer]

Okay, this is the way I've been looking at Gondor's heroes (that are being discussed) and their roles (with the exclusion of *Pippin, *Gandalf, and *Aragorn):

- Faramir: Your early-mid game hero. IMO he's pretty mediocre which suits his character for the combat aspect. He's mediocre at sword fighting, an okay cavalry hero, and is an average archer.

he could stand to fire a tiny bit faster perhaps, but not very much if at all, because i think hes in a pretty good place right now in terms of power vs cost.

- Damrod: Your early game ranged hero. Okay, he might need a nerf to his firing rate in consideration of his price but that can easily be adjusted as far as I know. Either that or he needs a better price. I like his powers the way they are and I am still not sure whether or not Damrod will stay as a capaign-only hero or not. At the moment, you can use him in skirmishes.


- Prince Imrahil: Your mid-late game mounted hero. He's fine the way he is at the moment, from my point of view.


- Boromir: Your early-mid game melee hero. He needs a shield bash (for some actual damage, have mediocre effects) and a Final Stand ability. Considering his price, I would consider Damrod and Faramir much more useful than him. I mean he costs 2000 from what I remember and all we get is a mediocre leadership, Gondor Horn, and a power that gives experience. Because he is a skilled warrior, it would make sense to give him more melee powers than leadership powers. The reason that I don't want any more leadership powers on Boromir is because (Iirc) all of the heroes that I have listed so far give out some kind of a leadership power. But that's just me.



*Excluded Pippin because I know that the team wants to give the hobbits powers, there's just been no news on that.

*Excluded Aragorn because I find that he is in a good role right now; Being your mid-late game melee fighter.

*Excluded Gandalf because I don't find there being any issues with his power set or stats.

[dojob]

His attacks already do knockback iirc so i don't think a shieldbash is necessary. What I'd like to see is perhaps an improved leadership, maybe a bit of splash damage, and horn come at lvl2 if it doesn't already.

[Devon]

Damrod just needs to go, period...


Gandalf's pretty good overall imo...if a bit easy to kill with weapon masters ()


Aragorn's pretty good too, I brought up the bow/sword toggle before heroes of gondor a month or two ago in the beta forums, but he needs a major nerf for that to happen, and only get normal/slightly better stats with Heroes of Gondor. No mount is necessary though, imo. Gondor's not cavalry based, but they already have three mounted heroes, which is enough.

Boromir should be 1600, and have his bfme1 attack speed. I'd like to see him get double damage when in red health and maybe some armor, but I'm not gonna push too hard for it.

Faramir should be 1200, stats as they are.

Imrahils fine, so is pip

[Dalf32]

imrahil needs better trample, atm he has none whatsoever. he can run down about 1 guy at max and then he stops. i think thats all i would change about him.

[Neth]

Imrahil should run at the same speed as the knights of dol amroth.

[Wanderer∞]

Boromir should be 1600, and have his bfme1 attack speed. I'd like to see him get double damage when in red health and maybe some armor, but I'm not gonna push too hard for it.

I agree. Boromir gaining damage and some armor at low health makes perfect sense, just watch his final stand in the movies.

Edited by Wanderer∞, 14 January 2009 - 11:53 PM.

[Hasfusel]

I thought the same, but I don't think it should be an actual power. Just a neat little feature. He does twice the damage and has twice the armor and maybe a little more speedwhen his health is low. I much prefer it to him fighting on after dying.
I reckon Shield Bash is a bit random for Boromir because a) he doesn't actually hit anyone with his shield and b) it wouldn't be particularly effective. On top of that it would be difficult to animate. I'd much rather have a more fitting power.
The way I see it, the Horse/Rider toggle for Boromir isn't important because he's an infantry hero. I just liked the idea because Tolkein stressed what a good horseman he was and his incredible journey from Minas Tirith to Rivendell.
What I do think is important is that he stops being a cheap early game hero and becomes an expensive mid game hero as is befitting his character and status. Tolkein made him out as being one of the greatest heroes of the age - it was just the weakness of his will against the will that defeated him.
Oh well.

Edited by Hasfusel, 15 January 2009 - 10:49 AM.